pachiderm
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Chewing some serious leaves
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Post by pachiderm on Apr 19, 2013 13:31:53 GMT -5
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Post by kirbyderby on Apr 19, 2013 14:02:51 GMT -5
Probaddie's mom is a fat Muppet
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Brick2urface
True Bro
Putting the "laughter" back in "slaughter"
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Post by Brick2urface on Apr 19, 2013 14:21:18 GMT -5
Did anyone else find that amusing?
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Usagi
True Bro
Grin and Barrett
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Post by Usagi on Apr 19, 2013 14:40:00 GMT -5
Good guns benefit from a good connection, bad guns rely on a good connection. Buff shotguns.
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Post by -3055- on Apr 19, 2013 14:59:39 GMT -5
The potential of a 1hit kill negates any and all arguments made against shotguns being underpowered.
SHOTGUNS R 2 STRNG.
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Usagi
True Bro
Grin and Barrett
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Post by Usagi on Apr 19, 2013 15:05:39 GMT -5
The SVU has a potential of a one hit kill and it still sucks. So does the Crossbow. And the Executioner.
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Post by ElysMustache on Apr 19, 2013 19:41:18 GMT -5
Executioner remains my highest K/D weapon. Went 17-1 with it silenced the other day, playing with HawkNY and Urbane:
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Post by palladium on Apr 19, 2013 21:40:01 GMT -5
Running around with a shield and only using the Executioner in advantageous situations will, as a result, raise the K/D with that gun over others used in all situations.
And you having one good game to brag about with it doesn't make it not terrible in comparison to other guns...
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pachiderm
True Bro
Chewing some serious leaves
Posts: 647
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Post by pachiderm on Apr 19, 2013 22:49:46 GMT -5
How the fuck do you silence a revolver?
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Post by wg4f on Apr 19, 2013 23:44:58 GMT -5
You can't silence a revolver (or most other guns) with a suppressor, but you can still make it a decent amount less loud
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Post by ElysMustache on Apr 20, 2013 0:13:41 GMT -5
Running around with a shield and only using the Executioner in advantageous situations will, as a result, raise the K/D with that gun over others used in all situations. Of course. It can be compared to other weapons that are used in a similar manner, however. In my extensive, though narrowly specialized usage, it compares favorably. True again. However it is my most used gun, with ~3600 kills. I can say that it is not a terrible gun at all, but using it improperly could make it seem quite terrible.
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adw1983
True Bro
Red Frostraven
Posts: 244
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 21, 2013 11:27:35 GMT -5
I think some of the people on here don't take the knowledge and power of this community seriously
My personal opinions that I have stated on these and the official forums: CoD4: -Stopping power makes killing too fast -Juggernaut causes serious imbalances (for as long as movement speed isn't reduced) -M16 needs to fire at 800 RPM to be balanced (with stopping power) -There's a delay after ADSing where your shots still won't fire straight -35 and 25 damage are damage numbers they should try to use in weapon statistics because of their significance in weapon balancing
MW2 -Faster ADS speed is to powerful to be a perk -Ghost is too powerful compared to the other perks -Team deathmatch needed an anti-tactical loitering alternative (kill confirmed) -A game mode for people NOT in a party (Mercenary)4 -Gun game as seen in Counter-Strike -A random game mode (Mosh pit) -The burst-fire delay CAN be changed, so change it for the M16!
BO1: -Full auto FAMAS is too powerful -AK74u is too accurate with grip -M16 is not powerful enough at 800 RPM without stopping power -- without a shorter burst-fire delay
BO2: -SVU is too bad -SWAT556 needs a shorter burst-fire delay -M8 was too powerful -SCAR-H is too bad; It's bullet penetration does not offset it's inability to actually hit the target on medium range, compared to Type 25 and even MTAR -MTAR is superfluous between M27 and Type 25 -Type 25 is too good compared to SWAT556 and M27 -AN94 is too good compared to SCAR-H, M27 and SWAT556
... I, for one, can and have told the devs what weapons will be used the most and which weapons will be used in competetive gaming and by better-than average players since CoD4 with a 99% success rate, earlier than they have any reliable way to draw conclusions from gameplay statistics.
I only failed at predicting that the UMP in MW2 would be overused of all the weapons since CoD4.
...
So to the people who don't think we have any influence at all and that the devs laugh at us -- I disagree: The combined power of this community's insight into the inner workings and functionality of the game -- and out experience actually playing it and analyzing the game fairly -- is massive, and the developers are wise to listen to us.
Like when they removed the "ADS-accuracy delay when moving" just recently and when they reduced the burst-fire delay for the M8.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 21, 2013 22:11:26 GMT -5
That is not true at all, and I'm sad to see developers be that objectively wrong.
With perfect weapon balance, in a game with: Rate of fire, damage, bullet penetration and recoil variables -- you still need to choose between:
Rate of fire: Medium-high Damage: Medium-low Bullet penetration: Medium Recoil: Low Example M4 from CoD4, ACR from MW2 and MW3
Rate of fire: Manual Damage: High Bullet penetration: Medium-high Recoil: High Example: M14 and Dragunov ACOG from CoD4
Rate of fire: High/burst-fire Damage: Medium-high Bullet penetration: Medium Recoil: Medium-low Example: M16 stopping power in CoD4 and FAMAS stopping power on MW2 G3 can be tossed into this category too; It had more recoil than M16 -- but the slower rate of fire mitigated the recoil
Rate of fire: Medium-low Damage: Medium-high Bullet penetration: Medium/high Recoil: Medium Example:
==================
There's already THREE distinctive playstyles laid out here: 1: Assaulter: In-you-face aggression; Automatic rifles and short range 2: Point man: Tactical and skillful play; Burst fire and high power rifles 3: Scout: Long range (Accurate rifles)
THEN add in differences in handling, and you've got to consider individual weapon performance and playstyle. If you suffer from Constant Reload Syndrome or have developed chronic Spray and Pray tendencies -- you will think twice about using a weapon with higher reload times.
If you suffer from impatience, you will not use a weapon with slower ADS and movement speeds.
If you have trouble aiming, you will not use the weapon with sway. If you can't compensate for recoil, you will not use the weapon with high recoil. If your aim sucks, you will use a weapon with random recoil because it helps you hit your targets randomly.
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adw1983
True Bro
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 21, 2013 22:25:33 GMT -5
The fact that there's so much disagreement in these games as to what the best gun is only goes to show how insignificant the choice actually is. The strongest assault rifle in CoD4 was the M14. You did not see it in active use because it required too much skill. The second strongest assault rifle was the M16. It was used more than the stronger M14 because it had a lower skill-requirement. M4 and AK47 was a coin toss -- but I leaned towards M4 because it's a western weapon. ... that almost had me going on a rant about weapon quality and what I thought about the G3 getting replaced with FAL. ================== and can you say why, in the long run, something like trading slight recoil for range is going to make a significant difference? I mean I know myself that I'd use them both the same way. I edited that into my previous post. Different playstyles. I can expand a bit on that: You use an example where two weapons are nearly identical. Like M4 and G36C. Why on earth would the developers NOT give the G36C a faster movement speed or something tangible to increase it's viability compared to the more accurate M4? If you had to choose between moving slightly faster and being more accurate, it would be a playstyle choice and a real choice. The worst kind of balance is the change in one or two numbers that are conditional and almost invisible. Marginal range difference (CM901 vs AK47), 40 vs 35 damage (Galil vs Enfield) and recoil (G36C vs M4 and FAMAS vs AUG) -- when everything else is practically the same: One is destined to be better than the other. Sway, run and ADS speeds are great ways to balance weapons that are too similar.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 22, 2013 9:05:25 GMT -5
WA2000 with ACOG... *Sigh*
Good times.
RSASS/Dragunov and XPR50/SVU-AS just cannot compare nor compete.
===========
NOW imagine if M4 had slightly faster runspeed -- but AK47 had noticably better bullet penetration.
Black Ops 2 is groundbreaking in that department. -ADS times different within class -Raise drop speeds different -Burst-fire delay different -Burst size different -hip-fire size different for ARs -Bullet penetration different
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adw1983
True Bro
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 22, 2013 9:25:16 GMT -5
Those changes would be so minuscule it wouldn't really matter. Oh, wow. You're not tactical players are you? Oh well. I want differences between weapons, and believe that it would add to the game experience for everyone -- even those that don't care for weapon statistics.
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42
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Bingo Bango Bongo
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Post by 42 on Apr 22, 2013 9:30:21 GMT -5
Those changes would be so minuscule it wouldn't really matter. Oh, wow. You're not tactical players are you? Oh well. I want differences between weapons, and believe that it would add to the game experience for everyone -- even those that don't care for weapon statistics. Are you really telling me that 1.5% faster movement speed or a slight change in penetration are enough to define a play style?
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 22, 2013 10:19:02 GMT -5
I like to pierce cover with my weapons when targets.
Why 1.5% faster run speed? Why not 4% faster run speed and 5 seconds extra sprint?
You're TRYING to make the suggested differences sound static and unimportant.
Why use an SMG or LMG or Sniper when the ARs are practically the same as all of those? I bet Infinityward COULD make all those weapon classes feel the same if they tried -- just like they can make each weapon handle uniquely.
Faster run speed. Faster ADS. More sway. Less bullet penetration. Less damage. Shorter range. Shorter reloads. Small hip-fire reticle. Shorter drop times. Best on short-medium range
Slower run speed Slower ADS. Less sway. More bullet penetration. More damage. Longer range. Longer reloads. Larger hip-fire reticle. Longer drop times. Best on medium-long range
You seriously cannot imagine these differences giving two weapons within one class distinctive feels?
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Post by -3055- on Apr 22, 2013 10:40:50 GMT -5
Don't forget perfect weapon balance makes it hard for good players to create a challenge for themselves. Like m1216 vs s12. Or vector vs mp7. Kap40 vs 57. It's fun going against full auto ARs with just a pistol. Or even akimbo executioners. Just kidding. There should be a limit to how bad a gun should be. And those are way below that threshold.
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Dumien
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Black Market Trader
No engrams. Only disappointment.
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Post by Dumien on Apr 22, 2013 10:44:23 GMT -5
Aids said soemthing a long long time ago that I am too lazy to look up.
The gist of it is... gimmicks are fine as long as they don't amount to much.
I would prefer more gimmicks. Recon spam in MW3 was a gimmick that went awry imo. .
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 22, 2013 13:39:08 GMT -5
Wasn't M14, M60, USP.45, Dragunov and Mini-Uzi challenging in CoD4? All of them had the potential to be best in class.
Riding the Pig may have been the easiest way to handle one of the beasts. High skill requirement to achieve a weapon's potential is a balancing factor.
Sway and recoil are skill requirements. HOWEVER -- that's NONRANDOM. Randomness is the bane of skill; The M14 had an 80+40 recoil; it ALWAYS kicked up and it always kicked a lot. If it's 80-40, it only kicks up one third of the times, and is harder to use because you can't compensate for the recoil manually, removing a skill requirement from the gun and making it random.
Not to mention shotguns, which always seem to be challenging -- and the snipers which can one-hit-kill unless you miss.
I currently run around with the XPR.50 ACOG silenced for the challenge of it. Currently at 1.43 KD, running and gunning solo in objective modes.
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Post by -3055- on Apr 22, 2013 14:57:22 GMT -5
Running and gunning... XPR suppressed... Also, some people might think certain buffs might be worth more than others. For example, if ARs had 90% run speed in Black ops 2 and the CM901 was in this game but had 100% run speed with stock I would consider that top tier. In terms of most important to least important, I rank: run speed, recoil, iron sights, ads speed, sprint out time, damage, range, penetration, sway, reload, swap, hipfire. So if a gun has really good swap, reload, sway, hipfire, and penetration, but has subpar accuracy and run speed, It sucks. Probably won't use it other than to get gold. Prepatch mw3 m16 with 100% run speed? God-tier. So right now the type25 is top tier. Even though it's only like a 2.5% increase.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 1:04:03 GMT -5
I don't think reducing the burst fire delay for the M8 was any of our doing, since i dont even remember anyone mentioning it on here. Wait....the M8's burst delay got reduced? When was this?
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Post by novaball on Apr 23, 2013 1:53:02 GMT -5
Wasn't M14, M60, USP.45, Dragunov and Mini-Uzi challenging in CoD4? All of them had the potential to be best in class. Err... the Mini-Uzi? How? That thing is so completely outclassed by the P90 it's not even funny (except that one is gold and the other isn't).
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adw1983
True Bro
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 23, 2013 8:10:42 GMT -5
Wasn't M14, M60, USP.45, Dragunov and Mini-Uzi challenging in CoD4? All of them had the potential to be best in class. Err... the Mini-Uzi? How? That thing is so completely outclassed by the P90 it's not even funny (except that one is gold and the other isn't). Why? Because of it's hard to control recoil?
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adw1983
True Bro
Red Frostraven
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 23, 2013 11:03:00 GMT -5
I took it to gold, and prefer it over the P90 any day. Does anyone know if the ROF difference was negated or increased by the 60 frame window? In any case, just load up CoD4 and try the UZI: It's like a magic magic marker moving around on your screen, and while it's hard to stay on target -- it definitely does not require superhuman skill. Double shot bursts and you can take out any target on any range in a split second with stopping power. Also. Heaven forbid it was actually as bad as you say, then the only way to remedy it would be to dramatically lower movement speed (to below 40% at least) which is a fantastic way to make everyone never buy another cod game again. Have someone strafe slowly into your sight within aim assist range on a console, without you touching your controller. What do you think happens to your sight?
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 23, 2013 18:02:47 GMT -5
In any case: What you will observe when leaving your aim stick unattended -- for instance when aiming directly on a corner waiting for a specific enemy to come out, is of course, that your sight deflects off target and is moved away from it, forcing you to move your sight back to where you were aiming to be able to hit that person (if he moves slowly out with the intent to kill you and doesn't rush out like an idiot).
It always sticks to the target, and does not at any point stick more or less. The fact that the sight deflects OFF the target tells us that the sticky region only sticks, and does not care which direction it sticks. Which means that it does act like a barrier if the target is moving fast enough -- because your effective sight speed is reduced by 40% when you enter the area. Now.
The sight does not move faster in any direction within that barrier, so what happens when that barrier is moving? The sight constantly deflects off the hitbox because it slows down before it can get to the moving target all the time -- unless your sight moves at least 40% faster than him.
Or am I missing something here?
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Post by bmac39 on Apr 23, 2013 18:54:35 GMT -5
Executioner remains my highest K/D weapon. Went 17-1 with it silenced the other day, playing with HawkNY and Urbane: Thanks for mentioning me in there.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 23, 2013 19:09:37 GMT -5
Whenever a target moves into your sight, your sight initially deflected away from that target -- moving alongside him at, assuming the sticky factor is 40%, with 40% of that player's speed.
It does not "try to find the center" but sticks/slows down regardless of wheter or not he moves away from your sight or into it.
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adw1983
True Bro
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 24, 2013 10:30:33 GMT -5
3 new scenarios -- from two games, both considered good.
I can take up 3 games each night -- but the third game tonight was a horrible mess that started with an enemy Swarm 30 seconds into the game and didn't involve much shooting at all.
Once again -- two good games with good connections.
Anyway: The video.
I made stills of all the three questionable misses, but added some random scenarios as well. The third scenario is a miss right behind an opponent -- then another missier shot gets a hitmarker. The fourth scenario was also a questionable one -- but I had no clear frame of the frame of fire. The sixth scenario is a case where several clear hits get redirected to misses by the LMGunner. The last shot on the last scenario is also a tad questionable -- but the frame where the shot was fired was too unclear to tell.
I will try to pull host or get a bad game again tonight.
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