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Post by -3055- on Feb 5, 2014 13:14:28 GMT -5
Just read over my last past... *tossed out the window.
It does what it's supposed to (fast ttk mid range 1v1) MOST of the time, but I'd rather sacrifice the 2 shot kill capability for a much more reliable gun.
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Slick
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Taking the piss
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Post by Slick on Feb 5, 2014 16:59:10 GMT -5
With a traditional burst assault, you had one burst killing and highly accurate weapons while not being as dominate at close range. Now they're shotguns and useless at range; 5 bullet kill with the kind of recoil going on in the burst with the MSBS makes it worthless. You need long range capability on most of the maps, which MSBS doesn't have. I prefer to use the FAD.
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Post by gioden on Feb 5, 2014 19:30:30 GMT -5
Also, I barely notice a difference with the AK-12. If you're saying it's "total garbage" then I'm assuming you thought it was garbage to begin with or you're just imagining it. I don't think the AK-12 is now "total garbage", I think the fact that IW decided they needed to give it a slight nerf is "total garbage". That is what they are wasting their time with? There are many other things they could be looking at but they decided that a slight increase to the AK-12's view kick numbers was important. Infinity Ward's policy to carelessly tamper with in-game stats is "total garbage". This is what Treyarch has done, this is what IW is doing now. IW had always been more hands-off with their games, changing things only when absolutely necessary or for the better (buffs). Maybe that was because they actually HAD some confidence in their products back then.
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Zero IX
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༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
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Post by Zero IX on Feb 6, 2014 0:08:50 GMT -5
Perhaps it's different on the PC, but on the console, the "new" MSBS ain't bad at all. It's still somewhat awkward because IW, in their lack of foresight infinite wisdom insists on making it a fast-bursting gun which is at its best at close to—at the longest—mid-range instead of making it burst slower but retain relatively high damage and accuracy so it's good at longer ranges but worse up close... oh well. The multipliers don't punish you nearly as hard when you can follow-up burst pretty quick and with MB + Grip the MSBS is gets one-bursts more often than not in its (mis)intended range. No need for an optic since there's no point putting 3~ bursts downwind on a target unless they're stationary and have terrible aim or are AFK...
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exxtrooper
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Who the fuck is Mousey
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Post by exxtrooper on Feb 6, 2014 14:07:43 GMT -5
Another thread with no sort of statistical proof of any sort of improvement, just "oh it feels" type deal.
Lovely.
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Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on Feb 6, 2014 14:20:01 GMT -5
Another thread with no sort of statistical proof of any sort of improvement, just "oh it feels" type deal. Lovely. iirc,That, and the burst delay was reduced from .20 to .15 milliseconds.
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Post by -3055- on Feb 6, 2014 15:19:14 GMT -5
aka still bad
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Feb 7, 2014 7:47:20 GMT -5
Another thread with no sort of statistical proof of any sort of improvement, just "oh it feels" type deal. Lovely. Did you read the first page? ^_^ btw, nobody forces you to read the threads.... Edit: my mistake, you probably don't know what a burst delay is, otherwise I don't get your post. The burst delay is the time between the last bullet of a (first) burst is fired, and when the first bullet in the next (second) burst can be fired. So what happens if you pull the trigger? 1st round wait 0.072 2nd round wait 0.072 3rd round 0.15 burst delay (0.2 burst delay pre patch) 1st (4th) round (if you are able to pull the trigger after 0.15 exactly, although I think if you pull it a little earlier, you will get your second burst at 0.15) wait 0.072 2nd (5th) round wait 0.072 3rd (6th) round So in total (and you will have to take this with a grain of salt, as I don't remember exactly at what time the burst delay begins, and whether it needs to be added up to the fire-time before the second burst, but I think the comparison is still valid) Pre patch MSBS 6 rounds time: 4*0.072 + 0.2 = 0.488 Post patch MSBS 6 rounds time: 4*0.72 + 0.15 = 0.438 I took 6 bullets because if you can't kill anybody in 6 rounds, you are surely better of with an AK/R5/FAD/HB/Anything (probably also if you can't kill the first burst, but whatever) In the end it is an improvement >10%. So there is certainly statistical proof of improvement. Lovely
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 18:05:07 GMT -5
Of all the things to name a weapon after the controversy surrounding the Xbox One having a highly-viable gun named the 'MS-BS' is bound to cause suspicion.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Feb 9, 2014 18:16:00 GMT -5
@ qupie
^^ well, usually burst delay was after the "3rd firetime" ... /did IW change it?/
1st round wait 0.072 2nd round wait 0.072 3rd round wait 0.072
and then: 0.15 burst delay (0.2 burst delay pre patch)
pracital RoF is more than pathetic ... you fire 3 rounds in 3x0.072+0.15 = 0.366 sec ...
"firetime" for such a gun is 0.366/2 = 0.183 and RoF = 60/0.183 = 327 rpm ....
5HK 327 rpm gun? I cannot wait to use it! : )
// IMO: firetime for 3rd burst gun should be arr 0.05 sec (1200 rpm), incl. 0.15 sec burst delay, = 400rpm, and plain flat 3HK with low recoil (and some 2HK range in CQC), 55-35 dmg. // then such a weapon could be "close" to be competitive, in laggy environment.
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Post by theprocitizen on Jun 6, 2014 23:40:22 GMT -5
Hmm... A gun that fires at 1200rpm in burst, with low recoil, and the highest maximum and minimum damage in it's class. With the shortest burst delay too. Sounds perfectly reasonable, maybe even,"close to competitive."
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jun 7, 2014 3:10:37 GMT -5
^ I said "in laggy environment" ....
Noone uses burst guns on PC as they are outgunned by full auto AR, in every COD:MP so far. (even pre-nerf Type 95 from MW3 was rarely met on PC)
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Post by theprocitizen on Jun 10, 2014 13:25:39 GMT -5
^ I said "in laggy environment" .... Noone uses burst guns on PC as they are outgunned by full auto AR, in every COD:MP so far. (even pre-nerf Type 95 from MW3 was rarely met on PC) Hmm. I suppose I can't really comment since I'm on console, but the type 95 is STILL op on the 360, even if it isn't used much. In any case, those stats would be ridiculously op, even in a laggy environment, for console at least.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jun 10, 2014 16:49:30 GMT -5
Aiming on PC is much easier so controlling full auto weapon is a lot easier, read: burst guns MUST suck in current IW-scheme.
How can we even compare 350 rpm 2-5HK gun (MSBS) to almost 900 rpm 3-4 HK (FAD)?
MSBS version on PC should be buffed a.lot., I do not really care how much as I'd not use it anyway.
>> burst-ROF 1200 rpm, >> burst-delay 0.15 sec, >> 2HK close/mid and 3HK in long range:
it seems still "not strong enough", to use it as a standard all purpose AR. to kill noobs it would be a perfect gun, but not much more.
3 rounds fired in 0.3 sec. (3x0.05+0.15), it is 400 rpm 3HK in long range (firetime=0.15sec), looks like garbage..., in close range vs 1000 rpm 3HK SMGs, or 900 rpm FAD/HB, it is outgunned anyway (2-3 bursts needed to kill experienced player who sees you) .... it still sucks IMO ...
a gun called "let's pray for a 1BK or die" cannot be a weapon of choice.
... anyway we have SVU, 400rpm 2HK flat, Reflex+Silencer, ... who needs 400rpm 2-3HK ? ... or 350rpm 2-5HK ... blah.
----------------
MSBS: what else to buff? let's add:
>> ammo: 45 rd mag + 60 rds w/ EM, burst guns eat ammo >> ammo: start w/ 1 more mag, so 45+3x45 or 60+3x60 >> switch time: 50% of std AR switch time, so it could be used w/ shield? sniper rifle? ... bad idea .... maybe w/ launchers? ... LOL. >> reload: fastest in AR class, ~2 sec. >> ads-time: like smg: 0.2 sec.
>> + free Stalker? one could use some Perks rarely used otherwise? it wouldn't help much ... but more fun sometimes?
>> + free Focus, ... and 50% stronger...
>> and plain open irons ....
now I could use it .... instead of 2-3HK 600rpm MR28 or 400 rpm 2HK SVU .... maybe ...
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Post by kylet357 on Jun 10, 2014 23:46:31 GMT -5
>> + free Focus, ... and 50% stronger... I don't think you can add reduced flinch to a gun. Well, more than likely you can, but because of the way it works right now that would be a ridiculous buff for it unless they made it like that on other guns (not to the same proportion, but just adding a flinch reduction effect that only works while ADS and every gun has their own reduction percentage, though it shouldn't be any higher than 10% unless it's for LMGs and Snipers (<-- only when aimed for more than a second)).
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Post by -3055- on Jun 12, 2014 1:54:46 GMT -5
It has a further niche in games like S&D and Reinforce (awesome gamemode btw) where preparing for a kill is much more likely than randomly running and gunning. It's like a mid range sniper rifle so it's best to use it like one.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Jun 12, 2014 6:22:42 GMT -5
Yup Reinforce is a blast. I started playing a bit of ghosts on 360 again since I ordered it for Xbox One. Fantastic way to rack up XP too. I haven't run into one coordinated team yet. You can yolosolo it.
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banana
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Post by banana on Jun 12, 2014 16:34:02 GMT -5
what's the objective?
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Post by -3055- on Jun 12, 2014 17:39:29 GMT -5
Yup Reinforce is a blast. I started playing a bit of ghosts on 360 again since I ordered it for Xbox One. Fantastic way to rack up XP too. I haven't run into one coordinated team yet. You can yolosolo it. *yoruswag. and yes, I got a 192 win streak with 3 other friends on that gamemode. I lost the streak because I joined a game while the final killcam (0 - 4) was showing. The objective is first team to cap all three flags wins the round. First team win 4 rounds wins the game. However: -You only have one life per round. -Timer starts with 2m and 30s -While someone is capping an enemy flag, the timer is paused. -When someone caps a flag all dead teammates spawn back in. -When a team caps 2 flags, the timer is immediately changed to 45 seconds. -When the game ends due to the timer counting to 0, whichever team with more flags wins. -When an entire team is dead, but said team has more flags, the timer and game will continue until the opposing team either loses from the timer or wins by capping flags. Also, it's 4v4. Best way to play is to rush to their flag and pick off enemies. Have a teammate watch your home flag (but don't cap it until your teammates are dead) in case others try and flank you, which is extremely common practice in this gamemode. When you come across a good team, it's almost like perpetual tag where you chase the flags they're capping and they're chasing the flags you're capping.
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Post by theprocitizen on Jun 17, 2014 22:11:07 GMT -5
Aiming on PC is much easier so controlling full auto weapon is a lot easier, read: burst guns MUST suck in current IW-scheme. How can we even compare 350 rpm 2-5HK gun (MSBS) to almost 900 rpm 3-4 HK (FAD)? MSBS version on PC should be buffed a.lot., I do not really care how much as I'd not use it anyway. >> burst-ROF 1200 rpm, >> burst-delay 0.15 sec, >> 2HK close/mid and 3HK in long range: it seems still "not strong enough", to use it as a standard all purpose AR. to kill noobs it would be a perfect gun, but not much more. 3 rounds fired in 0.3 sec. (3x0.05+0.15), it is 400 rpm 3HK in long range (firetime=0.15sec), looks like garbage..., in close range vs 1000 rpm 3HK SMGs, or 900 rpm FAD/HB, it is outgunned anyway (2-3 bursts needed to kill experienced player who sees you) .... it still sucks IMO ... a gun called "let's pray for a 1BK or die" cannot be a weapon of choice. ... anyway we have SVU, 400rpm 2HK flat, Reflex+Silencer, ... who needs 400rpm 2-3HK ? ... or 350rpm 2-5HK ... blah. ---------------- MSBS: what else to buff? let's add: >> ammo: 45 rd mag + 60 rds w/ EM, burst guns eat ammo >> ammo: start w/ 1 more mag, so 45+3x45 or 60+3x60 >> switch time: 50% of std AR switch time, so it could be used w/ shield? sniper rifle? ... bad idea .... maybe w/ launchers? ... LOL. >> reload: fastest in AR class, ~2 sec. >> ads-time: like smg: 0.2 sec. >> + free Stalker? one could use some Perks rarely used otherwise? it wouldn't help much ... but more fun sometimes? >> + free Focus, ... and 50% stronger... >> and plain open irons .... now I could use it .... instead of 2-3HK 600rpm MR28 or 400 rpm 2HK SVU .... maybe ... Hmm, lets give a weapon the best damage, range, rate of fire, (in burst, I'll get to that later.) magazine size, spare ammo capacity, swap time, reload time, and give it some smg handling too, so it will have the best ads time, ads walkspeed, least flinch (focus and a half? Really??) and get rid of its only weakness by having nice irons. I never, ever, say this, but that's just plain stupid. A 60 ROUND MAGAZINE? And an extra one? Even if you stuck with your base value of 45 that still trumps the fad, and gives you 180 rounds! With extended mags it would give a solid advantage over LMG'S with 240 ROUNDS starting ammo, with no scav or fully loaded. On rate of fire: first, your calculation is just a bit off- since the first shot comes as soon as you pull the trigger, with no fire delay, and since the burst delay comes after the burst, the first three shots are ( first shot instant, 0.05 fire time, second shot, 0.05 fire time, third shot) you get off your first three rounds in a stunningly fast 0.1 seconds. And out to a moderate range, you only need two of them to connect. You then have the third fire time and your burst delay (0.05 + 0.15 totaling 0.2) , and then your next three round burst (in 0.1 sec) and so on. Your Overall rate of fire is 600 (60 / 0.3 * 3 = 600), dead equal to the fastest firing marksman rifle. Best damage/range/mag size/ammo capacity/handling in all regards/ rate of fire (arguably) Best Gun. That thing would be completely, game breakingly OP TO THE MAX. I apologize for raging, it had to be done.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jun 18, 2014 11:47:38 GMT -5
Omg, you're right, I've created a monster.... :-)
It only shows how I disregard weak burst guns.
Yep, 600rpm is a bit too much.... But 400rpm is too low. Probably 500rpm 'd be fine tuned, 1000rpm inburst /3*6 ms/ and 18ms burst delay....
But even then I 'd not expect to see it often online on PC.
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Post by -3055- on Jun 18, 2014 14:50:18 GMT -5
a burst gun without a high in-burst RoF, high damages, and low recoil is going to be a complete turd. R.I.P. Destiny Pulse Rifles.
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Post by theprocitizen on Jun 19, 2014 23:55:53 GMT -5
Hmm... A gun that fires at 1200rpm in burst, with low recoil, and the highest maximum and minimum damage in it's class. With the shortest burst delay too. Sounds perfectly reasonable, maybe even,"close to competitive." a burst gun without a high in-burst RoF, high damages, and low recoil is going to be a complete turd. Type 95 is the only optimal burst gun in history where all three of those stats weren't top tier for ARs (excluding semi autos for obvious reasons) and it had extremely long range which more or less made up for it (in a game where full auto ARs were never more than a 4 btk long range). Not sure what you mean about the type 95, it was tied for first for burst rof, highest damage, arguably least recoil. And with the option of running rapid fire, kick (not really needed), or both. But whatever. Personally, burst fire for this entire game (ghosts) seems kinda sucky, though I do like burst maverick a good bit.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Jun 20, 2014 1:35:18 GMT -5
Then compare that comparison to the M16 from CoD4 to other ARs in CoD4.
Then the FAMAS from MW2 to other ARs from MW2... That was the point maus was making. The Type 95 was viable without having a clear advantage in every respect minus delay which is how previous viable burst guns worked. And even then once the M16 got buffed the Type 95 was eh...
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 20, 2014 9:34:44 GMT -5
They should just return the MSBS to how it was at launch. It was fine then, and since then, they've buffed most of the SMGs.
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Post by confuzzled on Aug 17, 2014 23:05:01 GMT -5
I loved the m16 with acog and suppressor in Blops 1, used the fal the same way in HC and the low powered scope on the g11 in HC, irons in core....
The msbs seems to excel at being a shotgun in cqc....I win engagements sometimes up close that I would lose with other guns when I use it. Only real benefit now IMHO.
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Post by kylet357 on Aug 17, 2014 23:25:00 GMT -5
The msbs seems to excel at being a shotgun in cqc....I win engagements sometimes up close that I would lose with other guns when I use it. Only real benefit now IMHO. Maybe because that's exactly what it's for? The two shot kill up close, the five shot kill at long range, and decently high rate of fire (overall and in the burst) pretty much indicate "use this weapon up close".
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