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Post by theprocitizen on Mar 24, 2014 12:54:47 GMT -5
Suspicions confirmed, then...this gun's damage profile is pretty bad. SMG: ~10.4m 3BTK ~19.2m 4BTK, inf 5BTK AR: ~26m 3BTK, ~48 4BTK, inf 5BTK The only saving grace is the recoil. Makes it an easy gun to use. Maybe that's why it got a lot of hype with the early release. Easy to use, but anyone who can control a statistically better gun (damage-wise) is going to beat you. Also, the wall penetration is still "Low" in AR form, apparently? Doesn't help. The AR form seems pretty useless. At first I totally agreed that AR looks lame, R5 RGP rate of fire with way less range. BUT then I thought about the rapid fire attachment. With not to shabby recoil and a decent built in optic there is room to run rapid fire and muzzle brake as a standard set up no extra attachment needed. This makes for almost exactly the same 3BTK range as SA - 805 (~31.2m) with enough 4BTK range (~57.6m) that you won't ever need 5 (unless you are cross mapping on big maps with ripper) at a rate of fire only slightly less than the SA-805, and with significantly better handling speeds and 2 extra bullets per mag. Still not very powerful, but definitely worth using.
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Post by theprocitizen on Mar 24, 2014 13:19:16 GMT -5
If they ever do that, they will lose a lot of appeal. If you separate tickrate and framerate you will get less responsiveness and higher input lag. This argument is 15 years old at this point (Q3A vs UT) and we can clearly see which engine has prevailed. The most popular FPS on PC are still based on the core of id tech 3 (Source is a development off of id tech 3 and so is the IW engine). Not convinced? The german hardware magazine PC Games Hardware did a test with a highspeed camera and modified input equipment to test actual input lag from action (mouseclick) to reaction (shots fired on screen). The result was that BF4 had not only very inconsistent response times, but also it's input lag averaged three times as high as that of a Source game (roughly 25ms to 75ms). BF3 & BF4 may be prime offenders with their horrendous 10 Hz tickrate, but even at a tickrate of 1000 Hz (which would generate massive performance problems on a consumer machine) you wont get the one to one response of a framerate induced tickrate. lol cod engine? More like lol Frostbite. Fancy graphics are not a substitute for working internals, you filthy casual! Yeah, there's this idea too (decoupling tickrate and framerate, allowing hitscan calculations to happen off-frame). But I think sirknumskull already explained adequately why that sucks. Ok, I'm not understanding something here. If my rates of fire will for sure round down to 600, 720, 900, 1200, etc. couldn't IW at least make rapid fire actually work on everything by upping the multiplier? Even if something like the ameli jumped all the way up to say 895 rpm, (which would be rediculous) it still would shoot at 720, but stuff like the bizon and cbj-ms, and ripper smg mode, could actually have a difference. Am I missing something major, or is IW just cruel.
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Post by sirknumskull on Mar 24, 2014 14:57:31 GMT -5
The weapon designers don't understand how the engine works. Treyarch has learned and you can see that they made sure everything works within the 58 to 62.5 fps range and you won't get any funny firerates. IW is all over the place with firetimes with little effect on the actual game. And they still have the fps capped at 85 on PC, which is another stupid, stupid, stupid idea. Seriously, some jump spots don't work on PC because of that framelimit. The effective 90.9 fps cap is the worst possible cap for jump height and fall damage. So go to 60 Hz and turn on Vsync then, you're capped the same way as consoles are and the problem is solved, right? Well, no. That would mean some severe reductions in firerate on most guns, which isn't exactly helpful either.
Does any of that sound like the developer knows how the engine works?
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probaddie
True Bro
You're triggering my intelligence
Posts: 11,043
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Post by probaddie on Mar 24, 2014 16:24:06 GMT -5
Yeah, there's this idea too (decoupling tickrate and framerate, allowing hitscan calculations to happen off-frame). But I think sirknumskull already explained adequately why that sucks. Ok, I'm not understanding something here. If my rates of fire will for sure round down to 600, 720, 900, 1200, etc. couldn't IW at least make rapid fire actually work on everything by upping the multiplier? Even if something like the ameli jumped all the way up to say 895 rpm, (which would be rediculous) it still would shoot at 720, but stuff like the bizon and cbj-ms, and ripper smg mode, could actually have a difference. Am I missing something major, or is IW just cruel. It's tied to your framerate. Every time someone mentions the idea that rates-of-fire are tied to certain numbers, they always seem to forget this. Those numbers you mentioned (600 RPM, 720 RPM, 900 RPM, etc.) are the allowed firerates when your game is producing 60 frames per second. If your game was running at 90 frames per second, the allowed framerates would be a number of the form (90 fps * 60 s/m)/ n, where n is the number of frames between each shot. (675 RPM, 771 RPM, 900 RPM, for example, would all be valid firerates at 90 fps.) This is due to an engine limitation that only allows shots to be fired when a frame is rendered. Additionally, the timer that determines when the next shot is fired resets when a given is shot is fired, meaning there is no "banking" of time lost due to a frame being rendered later than when the gun could actually be fired. This means that (assuming a constant framerate) your weapon always takes the same number of frames to fire every shot and that every gun that needs, say, 5 frames to render for a shot to be fired all must fire at the same rate. So to answer your original question: it's not guaranteed that those numbers you mentioned are the actual firerates, as framerate can vary from moment to moment. Thus, guaranteeing that Rapid Fire work such that your RPM always reaches the next "level" of possible firerates isn't practical. (Not to speak of the issues that PC would see, where firerates vary much more drastically.)
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Post by kylet357 on Mar 24, 2014 23:34:58 GMT -5
Is there any way that the Devs could fix this? I understand that it's pretty much a problem with all games, as frames aren't constant (for the most part). How would the Devs fix this problem without dropping the FPS to 30 FPS or downgrading graphic quality?
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Post by h4nn1b4lsm1th on Apr 1, 2014 4:52:37 GMT -5
Heard some rumors that it comes for PSN just in time with the DLC (May) I hope that is bullshit and it comes today or on April 3rd because that would be a month since the release on Xbox Live and also they always release things on Tuesday or Thursday.
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Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on Apr 1, 2014 10:57:09 GMT -5
You know, it's actually smart of IW to buff SMGs all the while releasing a potent DLC weapon. From that point the devs can make new weapons viable without having people cry pay-to-win. A good, exploitable pattern.
Now I'm sure they can do the same with shotgu- bwahahahaha who am I fucking kidding.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Apr 1, 2014 14:29:16 GMT -5
You know, it's actually smart of IW to buff SMGs all the while releasing a potent DLC weapon. From that point the devs can make new weapons viable without having people cry pay-to-win. A good, exploitable pattern.
Now I'm sure they can do the same with shotgu- bwahahahaha who am I fucking kidding. DLC shotgun will be Pre Patch Striker with Xmag glitch and damage built in and MW2 Spas Range...
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adw1983
True Bro
Red Frostraven
Posts: 244
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Post by adw1983 on May 18, 2014 4:11:24 GMT -5
Double framerate. Have half of them be dummy frames only used for caluclation of data between visual frames, and only render/process the other half.
I mean: They could handle positioning (of players) and gunfire, only, between frames -- and that would be enough. Grenades not being thrown between frames would not be a problem. Killstreaks being 1-2 pixels off would not be a problem; they already ARE misaligned with their hitboxes half the time -- and the other half, I'm the host.
And as for engine improvements:
Client hit detection
Server hit prediction Client hit detection WITH server hit confirmation
Clients determine if they hit or not. Hosts determine if a hit is theoretically possible, and decides who lives and who dies.
None of the problems with client hit detection; You don't die after you've killed the other guy. None of the problems with server hit prediction; You don't miss because server hit prophecy determines that you can't hit the effing SMG-Messiah while he's strafing and hip-firing from 50 yards.
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Post by kylet357 on May 18, 2014 9:05:33 GMT -5
Double framerate. Have half of them be dummy frames only used for caluclation of data between visual frames, and only render/process the other half. This could be done on consoles? If so, are there any games that actually do this for consoles already?
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