|
Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 14, 2014 13:21:48 GMT -5
Someone mentioned they should maybe just go to game mode specific maps. Six Dom maps. Six TDM maps. Etc...Maybe that would help spawns. From my end, I wouldn't put the spawn situation up near the top when talking about core issues. Like I said before, that would require a lot more development, make the game less accessible, and lead to people complaining about how there are less maps that they actually play, so it's not likely. COD4 also seemed to have less problems with two of the other main complaints, tactical loitering and claymores. tactical loitering seemed to be ineffective because if you don't push forward, your team will end up being pushed back, and it's hard to surprise anyone with your camp spot when you've been pushed back into a predictable spawn. I had maybe one claymore death over a few hours of playtime. I assume that advancing to plant claymores, then retreating to allow the enemies to advance and be killed by your claymores is a fairly pointless strategy.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Jul 14, 2014 13:46:12 GMT -5
I might be way off base here, but people/players were a lot less refined back with MW1. It was the first CoD game that got mainstream playing. There were a lot more random/solo playing, less skill, less refined techniques, no youtube to transmit instantaneous information out on how to exploit things, and very underpowered killstreaks keeping games more in check and closer. It was also the first year or so of cross-over wide stream broadband, so you had a lot of people choosing that year as the first year of real online MP gaming.
I think all the above, kind of masked some issues with MW1.
|
|
|
Post by bmac39 on Jul 14, 2014 14:07:40 GMT -5
I was playing COD4 this weekend, and prior to Ghosts most of the complaining on this forum regarding maps was complaints that they are too small and should be more like COD4 maps. But if you go back and play COD4 TDM what stands out is the spawns. Even in TDM, the COD4 spawns are extremely predictable. The two teams advance towards one another. If one team pushes forward, their spawn may move forward closer to the front lines. As they continue to push forward, the other team is pushed back, and finally back into their last "safe" spawn area, which is generally inside of or behind a building. They continue to spawn there so long as their opponents do not push too far into the spawn, in which case the spawns flip and they begin to spawn on the other side of the map. You generally don't have players spawn directly behind you, and in instances where a player spawns near another it is predictable for both of them. The entire feel of the flow of the game is completely different compared to more recent titles. Or, maybe they should just make more maps in desert towns. That seemed to work for COD4 (Ambush, Backlot, Crash, Crossfire, District, Strike). It's a very different game. Much easier. Also, let's remember those games of COD4 we played against one another. That time on Ambush I killed you from the secret jump spot. That time on Backlot when I killed you after you prefired me with the SAW and I 2 shot HIPFIRED you with the M60. Or that time when I dropped 37 kills on you. Or that time when I destroyed you every game with the M16. Or the 74u. Or that time when I dropped 33 kills with a Dragunov. Or that time when you shot me 2 times with something and i spammed you to death with a Dragunov. Or that time when you beat me once in 2 hours. Good times, good times.
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 14, 2014 14:32:27 GMT -5
I might be way off base here, but people/players were a lot less refined back with MW1. It was the first CoD game that got mainstream playing. There were a lot more random/solo playing, less skill, less refined techniques, no youtube to transmit instantaneous information out on how to exploit things, and very underpowered killstreaks keeping games more in check and closer. It was also the first year or so of cross-over wide stream broadband, so you had a lot of people choosing that year as the first year of real online MP gaming. I think all the above, kind of masked some issues with MW1. Like I said, we were playing this weekend. There are plenty of Youtube videos on MW1, and let's face it, you don't exactly need Tmartn to give you a quick tip of a new grenade spot he found when you have three and they have the blast radius of a nuclear bomb. And did you just call the COD4 killstreaks "very underpowered"? Almost no one uses UAV Jammer, Precision Airstrike generally gets you a couple kills, which gets you the chopper which is the destroyer of worlds. If you die before you call in your chopper, the kills it earns count towards your new streak. Perhaps some of the things you mentioned masked some of the issues with COD4. But my point about the spawn system still stands.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Jul 14, 2014 15:52:12 GMT -5
I haven't played CoD MW1 in ages. I still have the game, perhaps I should go give it a try sometime (I keep all my old Halo/CoD and other games)
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Jul 14, 2014 17:08:54 GMT -5
Someone mentioned they should maybe just go to game mode specific maps. Six Dom maps. Six TDM maps. Etc...Maybe that would help spawns. From my end, I wouldn't put the spawn situation up near the top when talking about core issues. Like I said before, that would require a lot more development, make the game less accessible, and lead to people complaining about how there are less maps that they actually play, so it's not likely. COD4 also seemed to have less problems with two of the other main complaints, tactical loitering and claymores. tactical loitering seemed to be ineffective because if you don't push forward, your team will end up being pushed back, and it's hard to surprise anyone with your camp spot when you've been pushed back into a predictable spawn. I had maybe one claymore death over a few hours of playtime. I assume that advancing to plant claymores, then retreating to allow the enemies to advance and be killed by your claymores is a fairly pointless strategy. Here is how Unreal Tournament 3 does it: TDM/FFA: Arsenal (6-10 players), Biohazard (6-10 players), Carbon Fire (4-8 players), Deck (4-8 players), Defiance (4-8 players), Deimos (6-10 players), Diesel (2-6 players), Fearless (2-6 players), Gateway (6-10 players), Heat Ray (4-8 players), Koos Barge (2-8 players), Morbias Arena (2-6 players), Rising Sun (2-4 players), Sanctuary (4-8 players), Sentinel (2-4 players), Shrangri La (6-10 players). CTF: Coret (8-10 players), Facing Worlds (10-16 players), Hydrosis (8-12 players), Omicron Dawn (8-10 players), Reflection (6-8 players), Searchlight (10-12 players), Strident (6-8 players), Vertebrae (10-12 players). vCTF: Containment (8-12 players), Corruption (8-12 players), Kargo (8-12 players), Necropolis (8-12 players), Rails (10-14 players), Sandstorm (8-12 players), Suspense (8-12 players), Suspense Necris (8-12 players). Warfare: Avalanche (8-12 players), Avalanche Two Fronts (8-12 players), Cold Habor (10-14 players), Downtown (8-14 players), Downtown Necris (8-14 players), Downtown Two Fronts (8-12 players), Dusk (8-12 players), Dusk Free Mibe (8-12 players), Floodgate (8-12 players), Islander (8-12 players), Islander Necris (8-12 players), Market District (6-8 players), Onyx Ciast (8-12 players), Power Surge (8-12 players), Serenity (8-12 players), Serenity Necris (8-12 players), Sinkhole (6-8 players), Tank Crossing (8-10 players), Torlan (8-12 players), Torlan Classic (8-12 players), Torland Double Prime (8-12 players), Torlan Necris (8-12 players), Torlan Short (8-12 players). A grand total of 55 maps. May be the one map fits all game mode view in COD does not work but more maps can be created.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Jul 14, 2014 18:54:18 GMT -5
It also had a huge mod community and free maps
|
|
wwaa
True Bro
PC / PS4 / X1
Posts: 2,086
|
Post by wwaa on Jul 14, 2014 19:41:42 GMT -5
In other words, you guys don't want big maps. Just more routes. what was the name of dat famous "million of routes" map? Downturn, MW3. considered bloody swiss cheese the worst map ever made.... edit: ... well, Interchange was not better anyway.... billion of routes maps were given and failed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 19:46:57 GMT -5
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive just adds spawn protection for public deathmatch-like gametypes before putting everyone in a custom-made tuna can of a map. Four to forty players; it works either way.
|
|
|
Post by GodMars on Jul 14, 2014 19:53:43 GMT -5
what was the name of dat famous "million of routes" map? Downturn, MW3. considered bloody swiss cheese the worst map ever made.... My point exactly
|
|
wwaa
True Bro
PC / PS4 / X1
Posts: 2,086
|
Post by wwaa on Jul 14, 2014 20:23:36 GMT -5
ahh, yes, I agree, having more routes a camper-pro slowly floats from overwatching one to another ...
the number of routes or "points of interest" on the screen in any direction any time should not be greater than avg-player's eye-preception, otherwise he dies randomly or is confused and slows down... and gets killed from behind, which gets us to a conclusion, arr 3 routes idea is fine.
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Jul 15, 2014 6:44:16 GMT -5
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive just adds spawn protection for public deathmatch-like gametypes before putting everyone in a custom-made tuna can of a map. Four to forty players; it works either way. You are also invisible for five seconds I think. Plenty of time to get to safety.
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Jul 15, 2014 6:50:40 GMT -5
All it takes to counter players sitting upstairs on Warhawk is a single player on your team using explosives. If there's also someone on your team using SitRep, they can call them out and have them taken out before they fire a shot. That's all it takes. Am I the only one here with a tube class? That requires too much intuition and thought for many COD players. Just refuse to use SitRep and keep dying to explosives, take to Twitter and gaming sites and moan how overpowered they are because they 'lack skill' to use and sooner or later a wish will be granted. It happened with Ghosts with IEDs and it happened in Black Ops 2 with Bouncing Betties making the C4 even a better choice than ever. Developers should stop creating explosives. It would be a good way to save time nerfing them later on at least. At least with the Bouncing Betties they were able to be resupplied, which is not the case with IEDs in Ghosts.
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 15, 2014 9:13:00 GMT -5
Like I said before, that would require a lot more development, make the game less accessible, and lead to people complaining about how there are less maps that they actually play, so it's not likely. COD4 also seemed to have less problems with two of the other main complaints, tactical loitering and claymores. tactical loitering seemed to be ineffective because if you don't push forward, your team will end up being pushed back, and it's hard to surprise anyone with your camp spot when you've been pushed back into a predictable spawn. I had maybe one claymore death over a few hours of playtime. I assume that advancing to plant claymores, then retreating to allow the enemies to advance and be killed by your claymores is a fairly pointless strategy. Here is how Unreal Tournament 3 does it: TDM/FFA: Arsenal (6-10 players), Biohazard (6-10 players), Carbon Fire (4-8 players), Deck (4-8 players), Defiance (4-8 players), Deimos (6-10 players), Diesel (2-6 players), Fearless (2-6 players), Gateway (6-10 players), Heat Ray (4-8 players), Koos Barge (2-8 players), Morbias Arena (2-6 players), Rising Sun (2-4 players), Sanctuary (4-8 players), Sentinel (2-4 players), Shrangri La (6-10 players). CTF: Coret (8-10 players), Facing Worlds (10-16 players), Hydrosis (8-12 players), Omicron Dawn (8-10 players), Reflection (6-8 players), Searchlight (10-12 players), Strident (6-8 players), Vertebrae (10-12 players). vCTF: Containment (8-12 players), Corruption (8-12 players), Kargo (8-12 players), Necropolis (8-12 players), Rails (10-14 players), Sandstorm (8-12 players), Suspense (8-12 players), Suspense Necris (8-12 players). Warfare: Avalanche (8-12 players), Avalanche Two Fronts (8-12 players), Cold Habor (10-14 players), Downtown (8-14 players), Downtown Necris (8-14 players), Downtown Two Fronts (8-12 players), Dusk (8-12 players), Dusk Free Mibe (8-12 players), Floodgate (8-12 players), Islander (8-12 players), Islander Necris (8-12 players), Market District (6-8 players), Onyx Ciast (8-12 players), Power Surge (8-12 players), Serenity (8-12 players), Serenity Necris (8-12 players), Sinkhole (6-8 players), Tank Crossing (8-10 players), Torlan (8-12 players), Torlan Classic (8-12 players), Torland Double Prime (8-12 players), Torlan Necris (8-12 players), Torlan Short (8-12 players). A grand total of 55 maps. May be the one map fits all game mode view in COD does not work but more maps can be created. Ghosts has 31 multiplayer maps. BOII has 31 multiplayer maps. MW3 has 43 multiplayer maps. I don't recall many complaints from when it was clear the maps catering to games with a smaller number of players were not going to be included in BOII.
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Jul 15, 2014 10:05:01 GMT -5
Here is how Unreal Tournament 3 does it: TDM/FFA: Arsenal (6-10 players), Biohazard (6-10 players), Carbon Fire (4-8 players), Deck (4-8 players), Defiance (4-8 players), Deimos (6-10 players), Diesel (2-6 players), Fearless (2-6 players), Gateway (6-10 players), Heat Ray (4-8 players), Koos Barge (2-8 players), Morbias Arena (2-6 players), Rising Sun (2-4 players), Sanctuary (4-8 players), Sentinel (2-4 players), Shrangri La (6-10 players). CTF: Coret (8-10 players), Facing Worlds (10-16 players), Hydrosis (8-12 players), Omicron Dawn (8-10 players), Reflection (6-8 players), Searchlight (10-12 players), Strident (6-8 players), Vertebrae (10-12 players). vCTF: Containment (8-12 players), Corruption (8-12 players), Kargo (8-12 players), Necropolis (8-12 players), Rails (10-14 players), Sandstorm (8-12 players), Suspense (8-12 players), Suspense Necris (8-12 players). Warfare: Avalanche (8-12 players), Avalanche Two Fronts (8-12 players), Cold Habor (10-14 players), Downtown (8-14 players), Downtown Necris (8-14 players), Downtown Two Fronts (8-12 players), Dusk (8-12 players), Dusk Free Mibe (8-12 players), Floodgate (8-12 players), Islander (8-12 players), Islander Necris (8-12 players), Market District (6-8 players), Onyx Ciast (8-12 players), Power Surge (8-12 players), Serenity (8-12 players), Serenity Necris (8-12 players), Sinkhole (6-8 players), Tank Crossing (8-10 players), Torlan (8-12 players), Torlan Classic (8-12 players), Torland Double Prime (8-12 players), Torlan Necris (8-12 players), Torlan Short (8-12 players). A grand total of 55 maps. May be the one map fits all game mode view in COD does not work but more maps can be created. Ghosts has 31 multiplayer maps. BOII has 31 multiplayer maps. MW3 has 43 multiplayer maps. I don't recall many complaints from when it was clear the maps catering to games with a smaller number of players were not going to be included in BOII. People are more likely to make unfounded complaints, like crying over the Target Finder, getting killed by a sniper in CQC once in a blue moon, and being killed by a shotgun that has more range than BO1's knifing range though.
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 15, 2014 11:13:12 GMT -5
Ghosts has 31 multiplayer maps. BOII has 31 multiplayer maps. MW3 has 43 multiplayer maps. I don't recall many complaints from when it was clear the maps catering to games with a smaller number of players were not going to be included in BOII. People are more likely to make unfounded complaints, like crying over the Target Finder, getting killed by a sniper in CQC once in a blue moon, and being killed by a shotgun that has more range than BO1's knifing range though. No, the reason no one complained about the removal of Face-Off maps wasn't that they were too busy crying about Target Finder, it was that people didn't care about them, because they didn't play them. Why would anyone care about maps they're not going to play? If Ghosts had 55 maps but only 10 were in the KC playlist, then the game for me only has 10 maps.
|
|
fpsdredd
True Bro
Always working on the FPS metagame
Posts: 495
|
Post by fpsdredd on Jul 15, 2014 12:05:50 GMT -5
what was the name of dat famous "million of routes" map? Downturn, MW3. considered bloody swiss cheese the worst map ever made.... edit: ... well, Interchange was not better anyway.... billion of routes maps were given and failed. Interchange was a wonderful map. If you want a bad map look just look at terminal. That map can be fixed by adding underground routes to the other side of the map and get rid of the nasty trench warfare (I don't like maps that make it hard to route around and hit the enemies from different angles).
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Jul 15, 2014 12:33:12 GMT -5
People are more likely to make unfounded complaints, like crying over the Target Finder, getting killed by a sniper in CQC once in a blue moon, and being killed by a shotgun that has more range than BO1's knifing range though. No, the reason no one complained about the removal of Face-Off maps wasn't that they were too busy crying about Target Finder, it was that people didn't care about them, because they didn't play them. Why would anyone care about maps they're not going to play? If Ghosts had 55 maps but only 10 were in the KC playlist, then the game for me only has 10 maps. People complained about Face Off from what I've heard because the spawns were horrible. Like people spawning inside of each other. If they are better made maps may be more players will care. If not then that is their loss.
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 15, 2014 13:06:43 GMT -5
No, the reason no one complained about the removal of Face-Off maps wasn't that they were too busy crying about Target Finder, it was that people didn't care about them, because they didn't play them. Why would anyone care about maps they're not going to play? If Ghosts had 55 maps but only 10 were in the KC playlist, then the game for me only has 10 maps. People complained about Face Off from what I've heard because the spawns were horrible. Like people spawning inside of each other. If they are better made maps may be more players will care. If not then that is their loss. Do you think that if they increase the number of maps they release, the quality is going to increase?
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Jul 15, 2014 13:28:03 GMT -5
People complained about Face Off from what I've heard because the spawns were horrible. Like people spawning inside of each other. If they are better made maps may be more players will care. If not then that is their loss. Do you think that if they increase the number of maps they release, the quality is going to increase? Probably not but then may be there's a 0.0001% that it might. Either that or cut down the workload for the campaign for multiplayer. How many people really play COD for the campaign? I've only completed World at War (co-op), did a few chapters in BO1, did the first chapter (I think) in MW3 and never bothered with Ghosts, BO2, MW2 or COD4.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Jul 15, 2014 13:34:40 GMT -5
Who plays the campaign here? Very few, who in the general population does? More than those that play Multiplayer. CoD sells about 20 Million copies plus or minus every year, at most you're looking at a total of 2 Million players at the most active time between all platforms
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 15, 2014 13:40:59 GMT -5
Do you think that if they increase the number of maps they release, the quality is going to increase? Probably not but then may be there's a 0.0001% that it might. Either that or cut down the workload for the campaign for multiplayer. How many people really play COD for the campaign? I've only completed World at War (co-op), did a few chapters in BO1, did the first chapter (I think) in MW3 and never bothered with Ghosts, BO2, MW2 or COD4. A lot of players play COD for the campaign. The amount of players that touch the single player and nothing else would surprise you. As has been mentioned, they're much less publicly vocal, and invest much less time in the game.
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 15, 2014 13:55:28 GMT -5
One theory why commercially Titanfall did not do as well as expected (still a very successful game as the #1 sold on XONE, but not the kind of success MSFT was hoping for), is because it does not have a campaign. There is no way to tell whether that's true or not, but my theory right now is leaning towards "a sucky campaign of a MP focused game is better than no campaign at all", from a pure sales point of view.
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 15, 2014 14:05:36 GMT -5
Not having a campaign definitely hurt Titanfall. However, given that EA view it as an investment in the franchise, and not the single title, they were probably better off not having it as compared to having a really poor single player experience. I'd assume it's a lot easier to add in single player to the next title as opposed to overcoming the assumption that they will always have a poor single player.
Completely muffing the 360 release, and the fact that the title is literally unplayable on many 360's definitely didn't help. I know I didn't get it simply because the game won't play on my Xbox.
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 15, 2014 14:28:14 GMT -5
Not having a campaign definitely hurt Titanfall. However, given that EA view it as an investment in the franchise, and not the single title, they were probably better off not having it as compared to having a really poor single player experience. I'd assume it's a lot easier to add in single player to the next title as opposed to overcoming the assumption that they will always have a poor single player. Completely muffing the 360 release, and the fact that the title is literally unplayable on many 360's definitely didn't help. I know I didn't get it simply because the game won't play on my Xbox. The "no campaign" decision itself is most likely a solid trade off, at least from Respawn point of view., given that they are a small studio with limited resources, and Spring 2014 release target is great timing for the game to come out (mid point between CoD releases, a lot easier to stand on its feet as a new IP that targets similar player audience). As an MP focused FPS player myself, from enjoyment point of view I think "no single player campaign" decision from a dev team who mainly excels at MP is a great way to go, I also wish CoD are doing that as well. Sadly, a good decision from game enjoyment point of view is sometimes not a great one from sales point of view. On the sales front, we have to admit that ActiVision is fairly business savvy. They insist on having 3 components for each CoD: a single player campaign no matter how mediocre it is, the competitive MP that most of the fans are playing, and the cooperative MP based on successes from Treyarch's Zombie modes. Along with massive Marketing campaign, time and time again they are able to push sales to people who buy this game for the sake of buying a game (i.e.: the players who have little interest in MP, the central attraction that made the franchise successful).
|
|
Dumien
True Bro
Black Market Trader
No engrams. Only disappointment.
Posts: 3,292
|
Post by Dumien on Jul 15, 2014 14:44:32 GMT -5
Titanfall has a campaign.
It just isn't a traditional one.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Jul 15, 2014 16:44:51 GMT -5
The Tournament games of the Unreal series also had a campaign, doesn't mean it's not just a Multiplayer game with exposition thrown about all willy nilly.
|
|
|
Post by dunsparceflinch on Jul 15, 2014 17:59:52 GMT -5
Just more routes. What makes warhawk a bad map isn't the size of it, but the fact that the tactical loitering spots all have only 1 or 2 routes of entry. More routes doesn't "fix" tactical loitering. The only fix for tactical loitering is closed arenas with no obstacles. Ghosts had tons of routes, in part due to the multi-level nature of many of the maps. More routes means more getting shot from locations that no amount of smart play can predict or counter. It also means more places for people to camp. I mean more routes to said tactical loitering spots. This isn't xeno's paradox where every path has to be filled with campy corners.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Jul 15, 2014 23:07:25 GMT -5
Who plays the campaign here? Very few, who in the general population does? More than those that play Multiplayer. CoD sells about 20 Million copies plus or minus every year, at most you're looking at a total of 2 Million players at the most active time between all platforms I'll toss some more numbers into the mix, numbers from a few months ago. I would say it's a bit higher than that. You can do the math. 1.8 million of the 8.66 million Xbox 360 players have played more than 30 hours of Multiplayer. 21% of XBox360 players invest a decent amount of time into Multiplayer (i would say 30 hours of MP is a decent amount of time) You could probably extrapolate the above into about 4.2 million players overall.
|
|
|
Post by bucket415 on Jul 16, 2014 9:51:30 GMT -5
They should make 6 to 8 Large Maps (at launch). Then just block off sections of the map to configure it for certain game modes & number of players. You can have up to 5 versions of the same map. Logic would be required for this, which COD devs don't seem to employ very often. The PS3 game WarHawk did this very well.
|
|