mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Nov 19, 2014 19:30:54 GMT -5
I think Barret vs Intervention was mostly choice. I believe the Barret could recenter before the Intervention could cycle and thus fire a tiny bit faster if you waited for full recentering, but the recoil on the Intervention was less jarring and could help you line up your next shot quicker. I think it was a trade off. I'll give you Uzi though. I can't remember ever finding any reason to use it.
|
|
|
Post by dunsparceflinch on Nov 19, 2014 19:41:04 GMT -5
from what i recall the uzi had lower recoil than the p90 in MW2. They basically switched the fire-rates and recoils from MW1 to make the uzi slightly less useless.
|
|
Pentaza
True Bro
Most kills, fewest deaths.
Posts: 304
|
Post by Pentaza on Nov 19, 2014 20:47:07 GMT -5
Weird, I got the copy of BO2 where everyone agreed the AN-94 and FAL were the best ARs, and the PDW was far and away the best SMG for most of the game's lifespan. I wish I could have played the version you guys got, it sounds great. Weird, because my copy had a useful Type-25, M27, SCAR, M8A1, AN-94, MP7, PDW, Vector, MSMC, MK48, LSAT and HAMR. Should see if you can get a refund for having a defective copy. I'm almost exclusively an AR player, but I had pretty much a different weapon on all 10 classes, unlike other CoD games where I tend to have only 3-4 weapons I find usable and just switch up attachments and perks across different classes. My favourite weapons were the MTAR, AN-94 and SCAR (the full-auto 3HK ones), but also used the SMR (which I preferred over the FAL), MK48 and HAMR LMGs, and the Skorpion (crazy rapid fire for close range), MP7, PDW, Vector and, occasionally, MSMC. Played with the R870, DSR and Ballista from time-to-time too. Even the pistols were fun. The Type-25, M27, M8 and FAL were all definitely competitive ARs (just not my own preference); the SWAT was probably the only one not worth a look. Some people hated the SCAR due to its recoil, but I loved it for its awesome damage at range, even with a suppressor - it was badass. I honestly think Treyarch got the weapons about as good as could reasonably be hoped for in BOII. Sure, the game would have been better without select fire, the R870 was a bit inconsistent, and the snipers were a tad annoying at times (I think snipers are more annoying in AW), but it's never going to be 100% perfect, to everyones' liking. BOII was a great game for TDM. AW would be better if they ditched the variants and add (without charging us) a couple of additional ARs. And give the BAL a whole lot of recoil.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Nov 19, 2014 21:05:28 GMT -5
I doubt Mouse was being sarcastic: MW2 definitively had the best weapon balance in any CoD. Killstreaks and perks were a mess though. F2000, 1887s, Uzi, and Intervention were underpowered, but everything else had clearly defined niches. All guns are equal, it's just some guns are more equal than others. I mean UMP is best SMG, ACR is best low damage AR, FAMAS is best high damage AR.
|
|
|
Post by dunsparceflinch on Nov 19, 2014 21:06:17 GMT -5
Weird, because my copy had a useful Type-25, M27, SCAR, M8A1, AN-94, MP7, PDW, Vector, MSMC, MK48, LSAT and HAMR. Should see if you can get a refund for having a defective copy. I'm almost exclusively an AR player, but I had pretty much a different weapon on all 10 classes, unlike other CoD games where I tend to have only 3-4 weapons I find usable and just switch up attachments and perks across different classes. My favourite weapons were the MTAR, AN-94 and SCAR (the full-auto 3HK ones), but also used the SMR (which I preferred over the FAL), MK48 and HAMR LMGs, and the Skorpion (crazy rapid fire for close range), MP7, PDW, Vector and, occasionally, MSMC. Played with the R870, DSR and Ballista from time-to-time too. Even the pistols were fun. The Type-25, M27, M8 and FAL were all definitely competitive ARs (just not my own preference); the SWAT was probably the only one not worth a look. Some people hated the SCAR due to its recoil, but I loved it for its awesome damage at range, even with a suppressor - it was badass. I honestly think Treyarch got the weapons about as good as could reasonably be hoped for in BOII. Sure, the game would have been better without select fire, the R870 was a bit inconsistent, and the snipers were a tad annoying at times (I think snipers are more annoying in AW), but it's never going to be 100% perfect, to everyones' liking. BOII was a great game for TDM. AW would be better if they ditched the variants and add (without charging us) a couple of additional ARs. And give the BAL a whole lot of recoil. Agreed. Except I don't think the route is to nerf the BAL. They just need to buff everything that isn't the BAL or AK12. It currently feels BO1-esque in that the best guns are all ARs and everything else is in a tier below. BO1 had the same issue with SMGs (excluding the 74u) being outgunned at close range by ARs.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Nov 19, 2014 21:07:46 GMT -5
I'm almost exclusively an AR player, but I had pretty much a different weapon on all 10 classes, unlike other CoD games where I tend to have only 3-4 weapons I find usable and just switch up attachments and perks across different classes. My favourite weapons were the MTAR, AN-94 and SCAR (the full-auto 3HK ones), but also used the SMR (which I preferred over the FAL), MK48 and HAMR LMGs, and the Skorpion (crazy rapid fire for close range), MP7, PDW, Vector and, occasionally, MSMC. Played with the R870, DSR and Ballista from time-to-time too. Even the pistols were fun. The Type-25, M27, M8 and FAL were all definitely competitive ARs (just not my own preference); the SWAT was probably the only one not worth a look. Some people hated the SCAR due to its recoil, but I loved it for its awesome damage at range, even with a suppressor - it was badass. I honestly think Treyarch got the weapons about as good as could reasonably be hoped for in BOII. Sure, the game would have been better without select fire, the R870 was a bit inconsistent, and the snipers were a tad annoying at times (I think snipers are more annoying in AW), but it's never going to be 100% perfect, to everyones' liking. BOII was a great game for TDM. AW would be better if they ditched the variants and add (without charging us) a couple of additional ARs. And give the BAL a whole lot of recoil. Agreed. Except I don't think the route is to nerf the BAL. They just need to buff everything that isn't the BAL or AK12. It currently feels BO1-esque in that the best guns are all ARs and everything else is in a tier below. BO1 had the same issue with SMGs (excluding the 74u) being outgunned at close range by ARs. MPL was best gun in BO1
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Nov 19, 2014 22:57:25 GMT -5
I mean UMP is best SMG, ACR is best low damage AR, FAMAS is best high damage AR. I never was on the UMP master race bandwagon. For HC, sure, but for normal it was just very versatile. But it didn't actually excel at much. The sight wasn't precise either. ACR was definitely the best low damage AR at long range, but it kinda sucked up close and was actually outperformed in close range by the M4, though people mostly didn't bother. And the high damage AR's were good. FAMAS had some good advantages over the M16, but the M16 had some good handling stats and was pretty boss with a holographic sight due to the tighter burst.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Nov 19, 2014 23:19:07 GMT -5
I mean UMP is best SMG, ACR is best low damage AR, FAMAS is best high damage AR. But it [UMP] didn't actually excel at much. Sorry can't hear you over muh 3HK without SP
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Nov 20, 2014 1:21:49 GMT -5
If you wanted to run an SMG and pretend you had an AR then UMP was your man because of that, but up close it loses to the MP5, while at range most ARs work better due to the UMP's recoil. Like I said it's extremely versatile, but it's very much a jack of all trades and master of none.
|
|
|
Post by dunsparceflinch on Nov 20, 2014 1:38:27 GMT -5
UMP WAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG But seriously, MW2 has at least two or three viable guns under every single weapon class and that's a hell of a lot more than any other cod can say. I think part of that comes down to how the game wasn't a bunch of RPS bullshit. One of the biggest problems i have with the later cods is that they ALL are filled with class options with direct counters that have jack shit anyone can do things about besides changing classes. It doesn't work because unlike a moba or any other class shooter, there is ZERO semblance of useful communication in cod, so you CANNOT just ask people to pick sad excuses for "roles" because without cooperation, its no longer a matter of picking a job but rather one for picking your poison. As a result, it actually stifles variety because the only way to deal with that shit is to make the closest thing to a perfect class as you possibly can. I mean hell. In mw2 an example class i had was UMP silencer+marathon+CB+ninja+thumper+tac insert. It kills shit, doesnt die to KS, is fast, whatever. There's nothing that beats it on CaC selection alone. Same would go for virtually any other class. even more specialized ones; I had a class with p90, marathon, hardline, the purpose was to pump out low killstreaks as fast as possible. Its much easier to focusing on maximizing strengths than covering weaknesses. I mean I guess ninja fits the bill, but whatever. It's gotta mean something if everyone bi tches about the likes of commando anyway. But meanwhile in something like MW3 I hardly ever ran anything besides the all-purpose-ACR-or-PP90M1 Class because virtually nothing offered anything that was worth dropping the reliability for. Without a damage perk there was much less circumstantially good weapons; and the likes of shit like quickdraw hardly offered anything over assassin unless you wanted to drop tac inserts faster to pelt an obj with more corpses. Much fun. Doesn't BO2 kinda fit that bill though? Maybe not with regards to shitty perk selection in BO2, but the weapons all felt like they could stand on their own (except for maybe the SWAT and executioner), even the secondaries in BO2 killed decently quick.
|
|
pwn3d
True Bro
Posts: 187
|
Post by pwn3d on Nov 20, 2014 2:37:38 GMT -5
I played MW1,WM2,BO,MW3,BO2,Ghosts and AW on PC online. No CoD had a really good weapon balance. I also played the older ones recently so not everything is from memories that are years ago.
MW1: had a decent weapons balance (but also only few weapons compared to others), main problems beeing perks(Jug) and explosives. MW2: had best balance within assault rifles. But then some stuff like akimbo M93/G18 or UMP45 was very op. MW2 was also the last CoD where burst weapons where usable on PC. (1Burst kill on all range). And still explosives are very annoying. BO: has FAMAS/AUG as best weapons.... MW3: MP-7 is just better than anything. BO2: AN-94 best gun. Ghosts: whole game sucked. Generally recoil feels so high everything is random as fuck and shitty lagcomp. But MTAR seemed OP to me. AW: With insane movement the best guns are those which can spray best. Bal-27, KF-5, EM-1 (Yes the laser is on of the best guns on PC)
|
|
wwaa
True Bro
PC / PS4 / X1
Posts: 2,086
|
Post by wwaa on Nov 20, 2014 8:16:19 GMT -5
But it [UMP] didn't actually excel at much. Sorry can't hear you over muh 3HK without SP You forgot abt RoF..... UMP was eaten by high-RoF smgs in face to face firefights. Gun was very good overall, ofc. Yep, MW2 had the best weapon balance. Everything was very deadly. All 4 sniper rifles were great. LMG - I loved em all. F2000 was bad, but it would be patched, no worries, sad that IW colapsed....
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 20, 2014 11:14:46 GMT -5
Weird, I got the copy of BO2 where everyone agreed the AN-94 and FAL were the best ARs, and the PDW was far and away the best SMG for most of the game's lifespan. I wish I could have played the version you guys got, it sounds great. Weren't the pros all using the M8 with its fast DPS and MSMC with its movement bonus as well? Doesn't seem as agreed as you claim other than the AN-94 being high-tier. The guns were close enough that in pubs the only highly used gun was the AN-94. We're not talking about the pros, who play without connection issues and with less people, making the M8 and MSMC worthwhile. We're discussing for normal play here. When you say "the guns were close enough that in pubs the only highly used gun was the AN-94" it just bolsters my point.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Nov 20, 2014 11:43:18 GMT -5
Personally I don't buy into the idea that usage alone determines balance. Lots of things factor into what people do or don't use. Just slapping the name of any AK variant along with the model and sounds is enough to get players using it, even if the weapon sucks statistically. There are too many factors contributing to popularity of a weapon including visual and aural aesthetics, pop culture references, popularity of RL equivalent, similarities to items in other games and movies, misinformation, bandwagon appeal and resistance, ect...
Not that I'm saying AN-94 was or was not OP. I didn't play BO2 enough to know or care. Just saying that usage alone is not enough to determine categorically that a weapon is OP. (Though it is a strong indicator.)
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 20, 2014 11:47:54 GMT -5
Weird, I got the copy of BO2 where everyone agreed the AN-94 and FAL were the best ARs, and the PDW was far and away the best SMG for most of the game's lifespan. I wish I could have played the version you guys got, it sounds great. Weird, because my copy had a useful Type-25, M27, SCAR, M8A1, AN-94, MP7, PDW, Vector, MSMC, MK48, LSAT and HAMR. Should see if you can get a refund for having a defective copy. I didn't say that the other guns weren't useful. But really, if you wanted to do your best, was there a situation where you would choose the Type-25 or M27 over the FAL or AN-94? Before patch #17,452, would you really choose the MSMC, MP7, or Vector over the PDW? I don't see how the guns are balanced if all of the guns in a class are decent, except for one or two that are clearly better. I really don't understand how the guns had personality. What mousey described about the UMP in MW2 - that's personality. Using different guns in different ways, in different situations, with different perks. That existed less in BO2 than I think in any prior COD.
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 20, 2014 11:49:53 GMT -5
Personally I don't buy into the idea that usage alone determines balance. Lots of things factor into what people do or don't use. Just slapping the name of any AK variant along with the model and sounds is enough to get players using it, even if the weapon sucks statistically. There are too many factors contributing to popularity of a weapon including visual and aural aesthetics, pop culture references, popularity of RL equivalent, similarities to items in other games and movies, misinformation, bandwagon appeal and resistance, ect... Not that I'm saying AN-94 was or was not OP. I didn't play BO2 enough to know or care. Just saying that usage alone is not enough to determine categorically that a weapon is OP. (Though it is a strong indicator.) I agree, usage alone is a strong indicator, not the determining factor. But the overwhelming consensus on these forums was that the FAL, AN-94, and PDW were the top of their respective classes for the majority of the game's lifespan.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Nov 20, 2014 11:51:48 GMT -5
Sorry can't hear you over muh 3HK without SP You forgot abt RoF..... UMP was eaten by high-RoF smgs in face to face firefights. Gun was very good overall, ofc. Yep, MW2 had the best weapon balance. Everything was very deadly. All 4 sniper rifles were great. LMG - I loved em all. F2000 was bad, but it would be patched, no worries, sad that IW colapsed.... That's why you throw on CB, Ninja, Marathon and a suppressor. P90 with SP had a TTK of 0.128-0.192 Mini Uzi with SP had a TTK of 0.126-0.189 Vector with SP had a TTK of 0.108-0.162 MP5K with SP had a TTK of 0.067-0.201 UMP without SP had a TTK of 0.180 UMP with SP had a TTK of 0.090-0.180 Again though UMP wasn't restricted to having SP to make it good. And could be better used to flank unaware opponents.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Nov 20, 2014 12:07:25 GMT -5
Weird, because my copy had a useful Type-25, M27, SCAR, M8A1, AN-94, MP7, PDW, Vector, MSMC, MK48, LSAT and HAMR. Should see if you can get a refund for having a defective copy. I didn't say that the other guns weren't useful. But really, if you wanted to do your best, was there a situation where you would choose the Type-25 or M27 over the FAL or AN-94? Before patch #17,452, would you really choose the MSMC, MP7, or Vector over the PDW? Yes, I did all the time. I remember playing a game where I wanted to show how good MP7 could be to my friend and went 30-19 only hipfiring a naked MP7 with no perks. My most used guns were SCAR, SWAT, MP7, Ballista, Type-25. Now granted I reset my stats a long time ago, but even before then I think only the FAL made the top 5, AN94 was probably top 10, but I wasn't a big fan of it. EDIT:Especially funny from you because your top 5 is MK48, KSG, HAMR, AN-94, and R870.
|
|
|
Post by LeGitBeeSting on Nov 20, 2014 13:04:25 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 20, 2014 13:25:25 GMT -5
I didn't say that the other guns weren't useful. But really, if you wanted to do your best, was there a situation where you would choose the Type-25 or M27 over the FAL or AN-94? Before patch #17,452, would you really choose the MSMC, MP7, or Vector over the PDW? Yes, I did all the time. I remember playing a game where I wanted to show how good MP7 could be to my friend and went 30-19 only hipfiring a naked MP7 with no perks. My most used guns were SCAR, SWAT, MP7, Ballista, Type-25. Now granted I reset my stats a long time ago, but even before then I think only the FAL made the top 5, AN94 was probably top 10, but I wasn't a big fan of it. EDIT:Especially funny from you because your top 5 is MK48, KSG, HAMR, AN-94, and R870. That's not an example of you wanting to do your best. Your most used guns selection and feelings on the AN-94 are outliers; you are the exception, not the rule. I'm not sure what's funny about my top 5 most used weapons. They are not indicative of my feelings on the balance of the game, and do not match my top 5 weapons in terms of performance. I've only mentioned the AR and SMG classes in my prior posts in this thread. Can you explain what you mean?
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Nov 20, 2014 13:39:52 GMT -5
Yeah that was why it worked quite well to use a very niche primary in MW2, because you could always find a secondary to counter it's weaknesses. Or you could take a primary that was good all around and run stingers or a quick swapping pistol for backup. It lent a great deal of versatility to your loadouts.
Since MW2 I don't really see much point in secondary. I never remember to switch weapons instead of reload in heat of the moment so pistols are useless, and trying to shoot down stuff just gets me killed so launchers usually are too. In AW I have just been using overkill so I can have another primary with ammo since I don't have scavenger yet. ;3 Though since the patch I did notice my ammo going further so maybe it's not necessary now.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Nov 20, 2014 15:40:01 GMT -5
I don't see much point in gimping pistols statistically. Semi auto, small mag, and short range already limits their lethality.
|
|
|
Post by netherwind on Nov 20, 2014 17:25:26 GMT -5
P90 with SP had a TTK of 0.128-0.192 Mini Uzi with SP had a TTK of 0.126-0.189 Vector with SP had a TTK of 0.108-0.162 MP5K with SP had a TTK of 0.067-0.201 UMP without SP had a TTK of 0.180 UMP with SP had a TTK of 0.090-0.180 You have to also remember that secondaries in MW2 weren't piles of shit. If someone wanted to make a class mainly for the Spas-12, then something like the vector would be much better than the ump by virtue of its long range damage and more or less equivalent accuracy. The P90s magazine size is also a far more tangible bonus than people give it credit for. MP5K still has its (admittedly very small) niche of having the fastest non-shotgun TTK, even without rapid fire, when counting ADS times. Uzi and vector were more or less clone guns though, slight differences in damage and recoil pattern, but were basically the same gun so whatever. Whenever secondaries are actually comparable to primaries, you have to consider the whole loadout when comparing weapons (another reason shotguns and overkill sucked in mw3 was because of fmg9s). UMP was a great primary, but its option for secondaries was more or less limited to glocks and launchers, which are more than usable but are certainly not enough to write off alternatives. That non sense, it's not UMP don't work well with Spas-12, it's just doesn't need it due to very low TTK with SP, if anything it's a HUGE strength of the gun so it could run a launcher for utility.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Nov 20, 2014 17:32:41 GMT -5
Personally I'd rather just be able to pick any two weapons, but every weapon has a specific purpose. Jack of all Trade weapons (ARs) would be okay, but UP vs niche weapons within their niches. Niche weapons (SMGs/Shotguns/Snipers/LMGs) would be OP within their niche and UP even compared to JoaT's outside their niche, but you could pair any two to compliment each other. You could have backup weapons (pistols) that have great handling for those "oh crap I'm outta ammo" moments, but are somewhat limited if used as primaries. And support weapons (launchers) that aren't great for gunfights but serve other useful purposes.
It might be a little more work to balance, but then again you can already pickup any weapon or use overkill to get any combo, so any imbalance already affects the game. *shrug*
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on Nov 20, 2014 18:25:36 GMT -5
I ran at most one UMP class and just never got on board with it. Every map just came down to I either did better with an AR, or an SMG (or shotgun), depending on my strategy for that map for that game. I didn't really need high mobility and a jack of all trades weapon, especially one with a bit much recoil for longshots and iron sights I hated because of the fat front sight. Especially considering I could run any SMG I wanted for CQC and still have a Raffi with SP for long range. ;3 (Not that I used it much, when I ran SMG's or Shotguns I usually took to a CQC area and whored it out.)
|
|
|
Post by dunsparceflinch on Nov 20, 2014 23:34:20 GMT -5
Weren't the pros all using the M8 with its fast DPS and MSMC with its movement bonus as well? Doesn't seem as agreed as you claim other than the AN-94 being high-tier. The guns were close enough that in pubs the only highly used gun was the AN-94. We're not talking about the pros, who play without connection issues and with less people, making the M8 and MSMC worthwhile. We're discussing for normal play here. When you say "the guns were close enough that in pubs the only highly used gun was the AN-94" it just bolsters my point. I didn't mean highly like famas BO1. I was more referring to fact that it seemed like in pubs that you saw just about every gun get a good amount of use (except for maybe the SWAT and executioner) and that you saw the AN-94 get slightly more use due to being the best AR for mid-long range. But I'm just going to agree to disagree at this point, because I'm sure if we argued we could find a few top tier weapons of MW2 as well, but the majority of the weapons each had their niche and self-reliability, just like with BO2. Back on topic, has anyone thought of using exo-stim to help determine damage values?
|
|
Usagi
True Bro
Grin and Barrett
Posts: 1,674
|
Post by Usagi on Nov 21, 2014 19:38:28 GMT -5
Back on topic, has anyone thought of using exo-stim to help determine damage values? Since it works exactly like Jugg did it can cause some funky rounding issues that can give inaccurate data. You can already change health values in private match so I don't see how Stim would help anyway.
|
|
|
Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Nov 22, 2014 15:27:18 GMT -5
So I was playing a game of AW, before being utterly left in disbelief of how fast I was dying to EM1. So I went to test the damage. Those little buggers stealth buffed it. It used to take 20 "bullets" to knock a target over in the firing range, now it's taking 13. EM1 is now usable, I'll test further, but there didn't seem to be damage drop off anymore either.
On PS3 at least
|
|
|
Post by kylet357 on Nov 22, 2014 18:03:40 GMT -5
I thought I was getting faster kills (and getting more fucked up by it) than usual.
|
|
|
Post by kylet357 on Nov 22, 2014 18:08:54 GMT -5
And yeah, pistols in this game are pea-shooters. When I used to go on the official CoD forums (besides for just checking updates) back on BO2, the argument against having usable secondary weapons in the game was "Secondaries shouldn't be able to beat primaries". And my response was something like this: Seriously, if they're not supposed to be able to outperform primaries then why bother putting them in the fucking game?
|
|