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Post by thestrategist on Dec 26, 2014 23:11:54 GMT -5
I know despite the testing this man did it's not going to do anything to convince you guys on this board, but I am going to post this anyway because I know other people read this forum. I've seen numerous posts on here even claiming that there is "no lag" whatsoever in Advanced Warfare and that clearly isn't true if you watch or pay attention to this video.
Beyond all the arguing about sbmm and whether that affects connections or whether connnections overall are good or not OBM is showing right here that basic hit detection, at least in it's current form, is broken. This means lag compensation (when referring specifically to hit box syncing) is off where in many situations you have to trail or lead your shots in game just to hit other players.
Again, I know this will convince absolutely no one given the extreme bias supporting sbmm, but he demonstrates in this video effects that many people on the ends of the "bell curve" are experiencing in Advanced Warfare showing that with a 4 k/d or above how you would have trouble even finding a game at all, more or less getting placed into the same 2 games on a regular basis like I have.
I realize that no degree of evidence is good enough on this board so I realize this is going to get flamed to death, but go ahead. I'll just let other people watch this and be the judge because in all fairness he's not even saying AW's latency or anything is that bad overall. He's just suggesting that lag compensation is not syncing hit boxes correctly and sbmm MIGHT have something to do with the 83% failure rate he got when testing the game 100 times with like 60 participants.
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Post by thestrategist on Dec 26, 2014 23:58:57 GMT -5
TONS of people saying "no lag" in this thread --> denkirson.proboards.com/thread/7540/month-feel-aw?page=1BTW, he demonstrated that basic hit detection doesn't work properly in this game, but at least you are admitting "lazy coding" might be the culprit here. For me, it's really an issue of "who gives a shit?". I mean if hit detection is broken like that, forget about lag and matchmaking and what not. There's really no justifiable reason to play this game over say Titanfall or Counterstrike or some other game if fundamental hit detection isn't registering damage in many cases. I think everybody on this board can at least agree with that. Can we?
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Post by thestrategist on Dec 27, 2014 0:57:58 GMT -5
Does it really HAVE to be that complicated? On the user end we don't (and shouldn't) have to turn into programmers to figure out something is defective in the products we use. We as customers expect to shoot at a player model and have those shots register. This is just a basic expectation for people playing modern fps. OBM demonstrated that with just a bit of latency added you shoot at a player and it goes through them like a ghost with no damage registered. Is any further analysis needed beyond that?
I know that when I play AW and there's even a reasonable amount of latency and movement going on people are being penalized for putting bullets on player models and rewarded for missing player models. That's not how the game should function imo. I think many people looking at this will agree with me.
The basis for your argument in defense of this pretty much is "programming is complex" and "these things just sort of happen in these games", but imo the low standards people have for Call of Duty nowadays and the acceptance of game breaking bugs like this is why other game (which OBM demonstrated work much better, btw, at least regarding baseline latency) don't really get a chance they deserve due to the apologetic attitude we have with these games.
Are we seriously EVER going to hold these people accountable for doing their jobs? Ya know, providing us a game that works on a fundamental level or is COD just expected to have bugs and is immune from any criticism like this?
TL;DR: We do not give a fuck why hit detection is broken. The developers either need to fix this or GTFO. Plan and simple. Give another game that works better a chance. That's what OBM is trying to tell us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2014 1:59:03 GMT -5
Everyone please keep in mind that while OBMs testing is worth taking at face value, his explanations for things aren't. He does a good job of finding problems but tend to extrapolate a lot when it comes to explaining them. I'm very surprised he still stands by what he said in his MW3 video. He made a comment about BO1 at ~7:45 and I think its funny and that everyone should hear this even if they arent watching the vid. I skipped the TTK stuff after that. That comment is.... interesting to say the least. Not to say that these issues should be ignored or that they aren't issues but I hate the angry mob that usually gets riled up after videos like this. Most FPS game communities that I've seen always have complaints about latency/hit-detection/etc and to see some comments (especially on the shitfest that is the CoDAW subreddit) that suggest that this is a CoD only problem just drives me fucking nuts.
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Post by thestrategist on Dec 27, 2014 4:08:12 GMT -5
Everyone please keep in mind that while OBMs testing is worth taking at face value, his explanations for things aren't. He does a good job of finding problems but tend to extrapolate a lot when it comes to explaining them. I'm very surprised he still stands by what he said in his MW3 video. He made a comment about BO1 at ~7:45 and I think its funny and that everyone should hear this even if they arent watching the vid. I skipped the TTK stuff after that. That comment is.... interesting to say the least. Not to say that these issues should be ignored or that they aren't issues but I hate the angry mob that usually gets riled up after videos like this. Most FPS game communities that I've seen always have complaints about latency/hit-detection/etc and to see some comments (especially on the shitfest that is the CoDAW subreddit) that suggest that this is a CoD only problem just drives me Foxtroting nuts. He demonstrated that hit detection actually worked in COD Ghosts. I don't understand why Mousey and others are arguing that this problem is somehow impossible to fix. Everybody said the hit detection was great in COD Ghosts. This was pretty much the consensus of the entire community, even youtube which complains the most. Do we see some kind of a pattern here? Community complains about "lag compensation" (a miscategorization, but still valid) in BO2 and later on OBM proves extreme baseline latency even in lan and offline split screen under thousands of trials. In AW people complain about unstable connections and OBM tests this with 60 people performing 100 trials each and gets an 83% failure rate along with proof of game breaking hit detection issues. The most consistent problem on this board seems to be the smugness you guys have with the community like all these people who play the game on a daily including some of these big youtubers like the one I posted earlier who's job it is btw to play this game for hours on end grinding gameplay just know absolutely nothing from years worth of experience. In all fairness, they do speculate a lot and yes, they do inaccurately use "lag compensation" when referring latency, but I mean weren't they entirely correct that BO2 had extreme lag? Weren't they entirely correct matchmaking is terrible here? Weren't they entirely correct hit detection is bad? And most of all, weren't they entirely correct when Ghost's hit detection was (gasp!) actually good and working correctly? Maybe all these people on reddit and whatnot while obviously not infallible by any stretch of the imagination are able to "feel" when something is wrong like this. This is after all the third year in a row they've been proven right.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Dec 27, 2014 4:58:23 GMT -5
The most consistent problem on this board seems to be the smugness hit detection was (gasp!) actually good and working 05:03 n1gh7 he thinks that because the community has been right before, everytime they ahve complained they have been right 05:04 n1gh7 when its really that the community complains so much about everything that things that do exist have been talked about\ 05:04 Alexcalibur42 Yup 05:05 Alexcalibur42 I mean at this point can anyone really be surprised if it has lag or whatever you want to call it at this point? It's like MW2 was the pinnacle and everything after was shit, does anyone expect it to magically be better? 05:07 n1gh7 its just that people notice it more now and have more outlets to complain about it, so the vocal minority is more well heard The last game of CoD I had fun in was BO2 and that was mostly Zombies and DLC maps. All you can hope to do at this point is try to find the CoD you like and have the most fun with, because they're all shit at the end of the day
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Post by Aphoristic on Dec 27, 2014 5:46:23 GMT -5
Why doesn't he blame Comcast for the lag? It's a far more logical culprit than some half ping nonsense.
Just wait until they roll out their Gaming Package™. It'll only be 9.99, or 19.99 if you want their Youtube/Gaming/Facebook Bundle™. Pay extra for faster access to what you use the most. What a deal!
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pachiderm
True Bro
Chewing some serious leaves
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Post by pachiderm on Dec 27, 2014 8:16:26 GMT -5
In all fairness, they do speculate a lot and yes, they do inaccurately use "lag compensation" when referring latency, but I mean weren't they entirely correct that BO2 had extreme lag? Weren't they entirely correct matchmaking is terrible here? Weren't they entirely correct hit detection is bad? And most of all, weren't they entirely correct when Ghost's hit detection was (gasp!) actually good and working correctly? I don't know what exactly you're trying to prove here. Just because someone can notice the existence of a problem doesn't mean they have any idea how to fix it, or if it can be fixed, or even the true nature of the problem itself. The most consistent problem on this board seems to be the smugness you guys have with the community like all these people who play the game on a daily including some of these big youtubers like the one I posted earlier who's job it is btw to play this game for hours on end grinding gameplay just know absolutely nothing from years worth of experience. Large amounts of personal experience does not immediately equate to correctness. If i work a machine in a factory for 5 years, and that's all I do all day every day never bothering to find out how that machine actually works. If it broke, I wouldn't automatically know how to fix it just because I have a ton of experience using it.
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Post by thestrategist on Dec 27, 2014 9:49:36 GMT -5
My point is we as end consumers shouldn't have to know what is causing the problem or how to fix it. All we need to know is that there is a problem and that we want it fixed.
It is up to them quite frankly if they want to either not fix the problem based on the assumption that people will just continue to buy the game or release a patch or fix it in the next title.
Personally, when I buy an fps I have minimum expectations of standards and I'm sure just about everybody else does as well. We expect working hit detection as a mandatory feature. We expect that when we shoot a character model damage will register without having to adjust for latency. It's been that for over a decade now and has become standard for modern fps. This is why "lag compensation" exists in the first place.
Contrary to what you guys believe although we don't have the super human ability to detect minor bugs and whatnot we are capable of knowing obvious things like ridiculous 150 m/s + ping sight advantages in BO2 or broken matchmaking in AW where we are regularly getting placed with people speaking foreign languages or only able to search for one or two games if we can even find a game in a reasonable amount of time at all.
We see things that are obvious (see: BF4, see: Halo: Master Chief Edition). I'm not saying they aren't full of shit a lot of the time or even exaggerate things that are true. I'm just saying when you have something that almost every single person complains about chances are there might be some legitimacy to it even if nobody can outright dive into the game code and prove it with 100% certainty.
See, we aren't responsible for finding their bugs and fixing their shit, they are. As they say "the customer is always right". Most people don't care about all the nerd crap we are talking about like "interpolation" and "tick rates" and "rewind time" or whatever. All they care about is that they can shoot the guy on the screen and it'll reliably register damage. Even the most casual player on Earth is going in there with this assumption regardless of what he or she understands about the "netcode" and all that.
Point of this is to inform people what exactly they are getting with this game, not to dissect the problem and fix it for the developers (that's their damned responsibility). Keep in mind, OBM is not on some anti-COD agenda or anything like that. In fact, he had a lot of good things to say about Advanced Warfare this time around, but if you are going in there expecting hit detection to work this time around good luck with that. That's all he's saying.
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Will
True Bro
K/D below 1.0
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Post by Will on Dec 27, 2014 9:50:18 GMT -5
This was pretty much the consensus of the entire community Consensus is something for politics, not science. My point is we as end consumers shouldn't have to know what is causing the problem or how to fix it. All we need to know is that there is a problem and that we want it fixed. At the end of the day, you as the customer are the one signing their paycheck. If you feel they are consistently putting out an inferior product, then why do you keep buying it? And don't preorder things - try before you buy. Your dollar speaks louder than your words.
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Post by thestrategist on Dec 27, 2014 10:24:05 GMT -5
This was pretty much the consensus of the entire community Consensus is something for politics, not science. My point is we as end consumers shouldn't have to know what is causing the problem or how to fix it. All we need to know is that there is a problem and that we want it fixed. At the end of the day, you as the customer are the one signing their paycheck. If you feel they are consistently putting out an inferior product, then why do you keep buying it? And don't preorder things - try before you buy. Your dollar speaks louder than your words. Actually, that's been happening since Ghosts when talking about the community overall. I didn't buy ghosts after trying it. I bought AW after trying it, but I guess it's all been smoke and mirrors this entire time. I assumed when I was killing people it was because I was accurate, but as you can see missed shots can be rewarded in this game and vice versa. You can be penalized for being accurate too so it's impossible to really know if you did well because you actually hit them or you just sprayed and hit some ghost hit box to the side of them. I assumed when this happened it was due to good old fashion lag, but in reality it was because the shots never even created a hitmarker to begin with.
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Post by bucket415 on Dec 27, 2014 12:59:36 GMT -5
My point is we as end consumers shouldn't have to know what is causing the problem or how to fix it. All we need to know is that there is a problem and that we want it fixed. It is up to them quite frankly if they want to either not fix the problem based on the assumption that people will just continue to buy the game or release a patch or fix it in the next title. Getting it "fixed" is as simple as not buying the next game and making sure they know that why you didn't buy it. Thats what I did. Now we just need about 10 million more people to follow suit. Stop pre-ordering, stop buying season passes, stop buying bacon camo, just stop.
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Will
True Bro
K/D below 1.0
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Post by Will on Dec 27, 2014 13:47:17 GMT -5
stop buying bacon camo, just stop. don't tell me what to do
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fpsdredd
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Post by fpsdredd on Dec 27, 2014 14:45:39 GMT -5
As far as a playing the game is concerned, this is how I judge lag in any game:
1. any teleporting? no, good. 2. any stuttering (not related to console framerate drop)? no, good 3. is the lag compensation generally the same as previous titles? yes, good. quick test: how far can you run around a corner and still die. furthest being bad.
If SBMM is real (i'd like to find an official post or some good evidence), then yes lobbies will be affected negatively in terms of lag. By how much? depends on how much they favor skill vs connection health. Has the lag compensation felt any stronger in this game to me than previous titles? no.
edit: just read something about damage not being registered... you do know you are shooting player ghosts right? any action you do in game (planting a bomb, shooting someone with bullets etc.) can be nullified because you are a dead man walking
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banana
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Post by banana on Dec 27, 2014 15:28:05 GMT -5
He did say aw is far better than the rest of the modern cods. So that's good
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asasa
True Bro
fuck
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Post by asasa on Dec 27, 2014 20:48:37 GMT -5
I've seen numerous posts on here even claiming that there is "no lag" whatsoever in Advanced Warfare and that clearly isn't true if you watch or pay attention to this video. wtf? where. Anyway there is already some discussion on this in the networking thread. There's just a bunch of weird delays as usual. There is clearly something a bit off, at least when it comes to LAN, as far as connectivity issues go; just as there were in bo2. there are countless explanations for the LAN/splitscreen but it all comes down to lazy coding. Everyone please keep in mind that while OBMs testing is worth taking at face value, his explanations for things aren't. He does a good job of finding problems but tend to extrapolate a lot when it comes to explaining them. I'm very surprised he still stands by what he said in his MW3 video. He made a comment about BO1 at ~7:45 and I think its funny and that everyone should hear this even if they arent watching the vid. I skipped the TTK stuff after that. I realize that no degree of evidence is good enough on this board so I realize this is going to get flamed to death, but go ahead. People arent gonna hold grudges over dumb shit if you stop shoving these comments into every other post. Yeah. I about shit myself when I heard him say that. I hope it's total bogus? I mean, I have no recollection of blanks in bo1.
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Post by thestrategist on Dec 28, 2014 7:46:55 GMT -5
As far as a playing the game is concerned, this is how I judge lag in any game: 1. any teleporting? no, good. 2. any stuttering (not related to console framerate drop)? no, good 3. is the lag compensation generally the same as previous titles? yes, good. quick test: how far can you run around a corner and still die. furthest being bad. If SBMM is real (i'd like to find an official post or some good evidence), then yes lobbies will be affected negatively in terms of lag. By how much? depends on how much they favor skill vs connection health. Has the lag compensation felt any stronger in this game to me than previous titles? no. edit: just read something about damage not being registered... you do know you are shooting player ghosts right? any action you do in game (planting a bomb, shooting someone with bullets etc.) can be nullified because you are a dead man walking Guessing you didn't watch the video.
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Post by GodMars on Dec 28, 2014 15:02:44 GMT -5
In the past month and a half I've experienced absolutely zero lag in AW.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 28, 2014 16:11:07 GMT -5
Not playing the game will do that.
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Post by kylet357 on Dec 28, 2014 16:44:01 GMT -5
The only times I've experience lag is when my internet was being shit.
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Post by thestrategist on Dec 28, 2014 16:54:31 GMT -5
In the past month and a half I've experienced absolutely zero lag in AW. Ok, what is your k/d? Because for the past month and a half I've experienced "searching matches 2/2" with Pedro from El Salvador in the lobby head glitching is freakin balls off with a bal 27 obsidian steed every single game. Unless I go to a different gamemode it's impossible to find a different lobby. They just place me into the same two games over and over with the same players I encounter almost on a daily basis. All headglitchers, all were 4th or 5th prestidge in the first week the game came out, all are using the two most op variants in the game. Not a single low ranking player EVER even during Christmas holiday. Yeah, if you are low k/d (like most people on this board probably are) you are going to get "searching matches 15/15" when you connect. In fact, if I log into my girlfriend's account right now the game will throw me right into a lobby with all rank 1-7 players, different lobby everytime, with the worst players in the world nonstop. All this is irrelevant; however, since OBM demonstrated hit detection doesn't work properly in this game. If there's any kind of difference between up and downstream (which there always is in the real world) and you have players boosting around corners or anything like that shots simply won't register on the player models like they should. It's broken.
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Post by GodMars on Dec 28, 2014 17:24:27 GMT -5
In the past month and a half I've experienced absolutely zero lag in AW. Ok, what is your k/d? I would assume it's 0.00
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 28, 2014 17:26:58 GMT -5
GodMars is being facetious: he doesn't play this game anymore.
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Post by GodMars on Dec 28, 2014 17:46:30 GMT -5
GodMars is being facetious: he doesn't play this game anymore. It's hard to say I really ever played it. A few hours at most.
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Post by GodMars on Dec 28, 2014 17:51:03 GMT -5
Yeah, if you are low k/d (like most people on this board probably are) What do you define as "low k/d"?
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fpsdredd
True Bro
Always working on the FPS metagame
Posts: 495
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Post by fpsdredd on Dec 28, 2014 17:52:52 GMT -5
As far as a playing the game is concerned, this is how I judge lag in any game: 1. any teleporting? no, good. 2. any stuttering (not related to console framerate drop)? no, good 3. is the lag compensation generally the same as previous titles? yes, good. quick test: how far can you run around a corner and still die. furthest being bad. If SBMM is real (i'd like to find an official post or some good evidence), then yes lobbies will be affected negatively in terms of lag. By how much? depends on how much they favor skill vs connection health. Has the lag compensation felt any stronger in this game to me than previous titles? no. edit: just read something about damage not being registered... you do know you are shooting player ghosts right? any action you do in game (planting a bomb, shooting someone with bullets etc.) can be nullified because you are a dead man walking Guessing you didn't watch the video. What makes you say that?
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pachiderm
True Bro
Chewing some serious leaves
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Post by pachiderm on Dec 28, 2014 18:27:14 GMT -5
Yeah, if you are low k/d (like most people on this board probably are) lol
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Post by argyle antiques on Dec 28, 2014 19:58:00 GMT -5
In the past month and a half I've experienced absolutely zero lag in AW. Ok, what is your k/d? Because for the past month and a half I've experienced "searching matches 2/2" with Pedro from El Salvador in the lobby Mind Bulletsing is freakin balls off with a bal 27 obsidian steed every single game. Unless I go to a different gamemode it's impossible to find a different lobby. They just place me into the same two games over and over with the same players I encounter almost on a daily basis. All use mind bulletsers, all were 4th or 5th prestidge in the first week the game came out, all are using the two most op variants in the game. Not a single low ranking player EVER even during Christmas holiday. Yeah, if you are low k/d (like most people on this board probably are) you are going to get "searching matches 15/15" when you connect. In fact, if I log into my girlfriend's account right now the game will throw me right into a lobby with all rank 1-7 players, different lobby everytime, with the worst players in the world nonstop. All this is irrelevant; however, since OBM demonstrated hit detection doesn't work properly in this game. If there's any kind of difference between up and downstream (which there always is in the real world) and you have players boosting around corners or anything like that shots simply won't register on the player models like they should. It's broken. What's your Kd bro?
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Will
True Bro
K/D below 1.0
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Post by Will on Dec 28, 2014 21:05:53 GMT -5
4.0 k/d bro I go 50+ kills every game with a few warbirds and paladins in the air every game I don't get a DNA bomb I am pissed off so I drop to the ground and do nonstop pushups until the next round starts CAN'T BE WASTING TIME GOTTA KEEP MY PUMP ON
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Post by iw5000 on Dec 28, 2014 22:19:58 GMT -5
4.0 k/d bro I go 50+ kills every game with a few warbirds and paladins in the air every game I don't get a DNA bomb I am pissed off so I drop to the ground and do nonstop pushups until the next round starts CAN'T BE WASTING TIME GOTTA KEEP MY PUMP ON Real pro there ^^^^
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