asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 24, 2015 9:45:46 GMT -5
We'd have different goals so it'd be difficult, but I believe we could do a pretty good job.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 24, 2015 9:59:20 GMT -5
Balance is definitely not easy. I used to help with balance for a starcraft custom game. It's an endless cycle, however the game did become more and more diverse over time.
At some point, the best ar is insignificantly better
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banana
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Post by banana on Feb 24, 2015 11:36:13 GMT -5
To be honest I doubt he'd ever relay suggestions like that. They just care about "buff asm1" and the likes. But the numbers themselves seem nice to me. Probs op Are you sure? I'm pretty sure he'd actually be really surprised at getting a tweet like that.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 24, 2015 12:13:35 GMT -5
I can't be sure, but historically they ignore anything technical
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 24, 2015 12:41:22 GMT -5
yeah i dunno i wouldnt trust this forum to balance shit Hey, screw you, too. I could totally balance this shit. But, seriously, I could balance AW in a weekend without playtesting and it would be more balanced than the game is now. AW would be really fun to balance since you could go balls to the wall since every gun has variants, meaning that a ton of novelty guns could be implemented. How does ads spread of 3, standing at 6 (no moving spread), and gung ho spread of 12 sound? No weapon class should have a Gungho penalty or every class should have a Gungho penalty.
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banana
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Post by banana on Feb 24, 2015 12:54:08 GMT -5
I feel like not having a gung ho penalty is way too op on shotguns, assuming we're implementing my spreads. I guess a static 4, 8, 16 would be better for every shotgun and not have anything border op.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 24, 2015 12:56:08 GMT -5
Make it with the ATLAS 20mm only.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 24, 2015 13:47:27 GMT -5
MW2#1
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 24, 2015 15:18:54 GMT -5
there just isnt much you can fu cking do with a fully automatic accurateish gun that kills in a few hits. I find your lack of imagination disturbing.
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fpsdredd
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Post by fpsdredd on Feb 24, 2015 15:49:56 GMT -5
break the mold and weapon tuning this Thursday? I hope
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 24, 2015 16:32:48 GMT -5
Hey, screw you, too. I could totally balance this shit. But, seriously, I could balance AW in a weekend without playtesting and it would be more balanced than the game is now. yeah but so what. Pick any gun thats objectively OP/UP and slightly nerf/buff it and youve technically accomplished that. Thats just boring and meaningless because the extent of fun it may offer is simply having another thing to click on in the CaC screen. Some classes have been made deliberately underpowered because the community is a bunch of pricks. Some guns are just straight up outclasses within their own weapon class because with all these variants and lack of weapon modifying perks like stopping power, there just isnt much you can fu cking do with a fully automatic accurateish gun that kills in a few hits. The devs have perfectly good reasons to cater balance towards a much lower skill group than what you'd see on this forum, or hell, even on a shithole like reddit or gamefaqs; and they have even more reason to just not give a shit about most of the guns. What I moreso meant though is that I don't think anyone here would do a particularly good job at balancing the game without coming across the same issues of weapons being outclassed. There is not that much variety in cods weapons across the board. Differences like 1 BTK, 150 RPM, or having marginally less recoil are seen as gamechangers; not because it makes the difference betweern good or bad, but because it marginally pushes a weapon ahead of another in some explicit way. The sheer number of them means that some are going to have their niche in throwaway stats like fuc king reload speed. Really the ways you could mix and match shit offered more variety than this pick 10 bullshit ever did. MW2 is pretty rightfully often hailed as the cod with most weapon variety, but thats often just because of how you could actually generate synergy within your class. Certain weapons were great stock, while others were better when SP was equipped, or one had less of a downside with a silencer than others, or a gun really sucked in CQC so you wanted a shotgun or glocks (again depending on stopping power), or maybe a pistol because your sniper has shit swap speed and you arent running SoH. It very often wasnt a case of someone picking a gun because they liked x damage and y recoil and it turned them on, but that because that a lot of weapons were explicitly better depending on the rest of the class, you ended up seeing a lot more weapons get used in general. It was about as close to balance as you could ever accomplish in this shit. I think I see what you're saying - that the weapons are already "fairly balanced", but any superior weapon, no matter how mild, will always be popular and seen as the "op gun that needs nerf nao", and to some degree I agree with that. Yes, they are all working, fairly comparable guns.. but when we can look at the numbers, without any gameplay with them at all, and say - yeah, the MK14 is bad. Or, AMR9 is shit - that to me says there is substantial room for improvement. We're not quite at the point where a 1% increase in DVK for a given weapon puts it into the "outclassed" territory, or vice-versa. Throwaway stats seem more destined for fine tuning than actually redeeming features, and if thats not the case, something is wrong. Honestly what you're describing about MW2 to me reads as "awful balance". One gun being the one to use suppressed? One gun to be used without SP? I suppose its class variety, but it seems very stupid to me. How many useful classes were there really in MW2? AR w/ SP and shotgun/akimbo pistol? I vaguely recall Intervention/Barrett with M93 Akimbo, or FAL Bling with Striker. Both with SP. One with SA Pro, the other with SA Pro or Ninja Pro (Again, IIRC). Yeah, the akimbo pistols made a lot more sense with a sniper since you may have SA Pro (Ok, I might be the only one who did that - not sure), but that's not a good thing at all in my opinion. There are some good things I can see, such as the M21, or WA2K, but thats literally all I can think of.. the only other "unique case" in MW2 is the UMP and that was definitely overpowered. How common were the M21 and WA2K anyway? They were pretty much never better than the Barrett.. just unique.
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Post by thegentleman on Feb 24, 2015 18:12:46 GMT -5
The thought I had a while back was to have a FPS with something like Metal Gear Solid 4's "war economy." The idea in the game was that the players purchasing the same kinds of guns made them more valuable, as they were in "higher demand" than the others that might have been outclassed, etc. Or, if you wanted variety or wanted to hang onto your in-game scratch, you could get a less-popular gun but trick it out.
In CoD, it might be interesting to have a mode where there's some kind of "gun stock index" where kills with often-used guns would reward fewer points than 100, and guns that are hardly ever touched grant more points than 100. If it were slapped into AW? Kill a player with an ASM1, get 75 points. Kill them with a riot shield? 250 points. Kill them with an Atlas-45? 175 points.
The main argument against it is that it's too complicated for the CoD mouthbreather. Sure, I get that: maybe people don't want to check a chart for that week as to what kills are worth what with which gun, and perhaps the in-game experience might seem like the point values are adjusting arbitrarily. But for those who do get it and think such a system would be novel, it shifts the discussion away from "overpowered" to "undervalued." People would be encouraged to explore different guns in different categories to see if the extra point incentives and novelty could give them an edge. Under this system, even objectively bad guns like the AMR-9 could find a niche, since the benefit they would provide to a killstreak chain might outweigh the drawback it has in a one-on-one gunfight.
I'm throwing out something pretty radical above here, but I think you can remove a lot of the balance frustration if "bad" guns have some reason to exist aside from bragging rights. This brings me back to what I've said before about hidden benefits (USAS-12 sprint) that give a particular gun a strong niche. Or, at the very least, being a little less rigid with some of the current metrics that define class or game mode. (I.e., point values given by certain guns, ADS times, etc.)
By and large, I do agree with Mousey in that there are just a gosh darn golly gee whized lot of guns that compete within the same kind of situational use. And, in just about every game, a few clear winners emerge. Where I differ is that I do think that you can balance them out. The SC2010 felt different from the Remington R5 and different from the AK-12 in Ghosts. A lot of those guns saw use. But then there was something like the FAD in ghosts, which struggled for a reason to exist or compete as something other than "bad."
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Feb 24, 2015 18:48:39 GMT -5
Yeah that seems like a bad idea. They just need to balance with more variety and towards certain play styles. I think BO2 was on the right track, but ultimately dropped the ball. But I think MW2 or BO2 are better examples of balancing then Ghosts and especially than AW.
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 25, 2015 2:25:02 GMT -5
People clearly don't want a variety of unique, but balanced weapons. Titanfall has 13 completely unique, 100% balanced weapons. (23 if you count Titan weapons and launchers) And the biggest complaint about that game? Not enough weapons.
People are stupid. People want 100 identical weapons that are slightly off balance because it's impossible to balance 100 weapons that effectively do the exact same thing.
It would be nice if COD would implement some actual recoil, like we see in Battlefield. Then they'd actually have some room to play with balance and variety. But that won't happen, because that would make the game more difficult to play, and the appeal of COD is how easy it is to play.
If this forum had the chance to balance weapons in a COD, shotguns would be overpowered as fuck. And I would love every minute of it.
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Post by thegentleman on Feb 25, 2015 3:44:28 GMT -5
The main argument against it is that it's too complicated for the CoD mouthbreather." i think that the main argument against that would be that it creates variety through force rather than actually encouraging players to want the guns they use. Agree to disagree, then. You raise a fair point, but I think there's a place for it. Gun game is all about being forced to use a particular order and set of weapons, and a lot of people have fun in the mode. With an economy-based balancing system, people are still free to use what they want and like, but if the vast majority flocks to that same gun, they don't get any particular rewards or benefits from running it. Perhaps, then, just a bounty attached to guns like the CBJ-MS, PM-9, AMR-9s of the world, etc.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 25, 2015 10:51:18 GMT -5
Really I don't like it because its punishing the players for choosing good weapons. Not really as you can easily get duble if not quad the kills with a MP7 than a 1887. Your reward for using a better gun is higher K/D, SPM, and helping your team more by massacring the enemy team which ten times a better reward than some arbitrary contract for using some terrible gun. Higher score = more xp leaving the bounty reward moot. Unless ofc they made bounties pay out real money.
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Post by broth3r on Feb 25, 2015 14:40:50 GMT -5
The bounty idea could be better, but I think it would be best if random. Every say give people random gun challenges like "40 kills with X gun" and make it different for every player. I wouldnt mind that since anyone grinding those would almost surely just drop into TDM/Ground War/whatever. And the day a challenge for a popular gun drops, the game because unbearably frustrating. I like daily challenges and whatnot, but I don't agree they should be random. It's a chance for the developer to tailor player behavior, perhaps even alleviate some game design flaws in doing so. BO1's contracts were a good system, but they just tried to please everyone instead. "Get 20 kills while in prone using the Ghost Perk".
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fpsdredd
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Post by fpsdredd on Feb 26, 2015 0:02:44 GMT -5
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Feb 26, 2015 0:30:50 GMT -5
WOO ASM1 buff confirmed!
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Post by linkinito on Feb 26, 2015 7:07:06 GMT -5
Apparently the ASM1 got a huge range nerf, I started to get 4 shot kills at medium range where I was used to get 3. However the SN6 definitely got a damage buff (4 shot kills at medium range while it was 5).
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Post by strokedem on Feb 26, 2015 8:45:15 GMT -5
Apparently the ASM1 got a huge range nerf, I started to get 4 shot kills at medium range where I was used to get 3. However the SN6 definitely got a damage buff (4 shot kills at medium range while it was 5). ps4? pretty sure ps4 just got the patch thats already on xbox 1. We got it with the release of dlc. I assume the same is true for ps4. Unless they gave you a new patch but i doubt that.
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fpsdredd
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Post by fpsdredd on Feb 26, 2015 9:16:11 GMT -5
Did quick tests with the Lynx and no recoil adjustments or multiplier changes.
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 26, 2015 10:32:49 GMT -5
There hasn't been a new patch yet. ASM1 range nerf is an ass-pull.
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 26, 2015 10:34:37 GMT -5
Apparently the ASM1 got a huge range nerf, I started to get 4 shot kills at medium range where I was used to get 3. However the SN6 definitely got a damage buff (4 shot kills at medium range while it was 5). ps4? pretty sure ps4 just got the patch thats already on xbox 1. We got it with the release of dlc. I assume the same is true for ps4. Unless they gave you a new patch but i doubt that. PS4 got the Feb 3rd patch on the same day as Xbox One, Feb 3rd.
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fpsdredd
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Post by fpsdredd on Feb 26, 2015 10:49:41 GMT -5
There has been a patch, did it include weapon tuning is the question. see below at timestamp:
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fpsdredd
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Post by fpsdredd on Feb 26, 2015 11:37:09 GMT -5
Can someone test some stats for any changes?
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 26, 2015 13:32:21 GMT -5
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fpsdredd
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Post by fpsdredd on Feb 26, 2015 15:25:51 GMT -5
I'm predicting the weapon tuning patch to hit on Feb March 10th. I'm hoping Feb March 3rd.
edit: DOH
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Post by thewhitetestament on Feb 26, 2015 15:28:54 GMT -5
I'm predicting the weapon tuning patch to hit on Feb 10th. I'm hoping Feb 3rd. Of 2016?! Dear God, I hope you are mistaken. Hoho.
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Post by thewhitetestament on Feb 26, 2015 15:29:41 GMT -5
Apparently the ASM1 got a huge range nerf, I started to get 4 shot kills at medium range where I was used to get 3. However the SN6 definitely got a damage buff (4 shot kills at medium range while it was 5). You must just be imaging things. The patch notes were just released: Required Game Update enables Havoc DLC Compatibility for all Playstation Platforms. All Season Pass holders and Havoc DLC owners will also be required to download the Havoc DLC Pack content: - New Maps Added for Multiplayer and Exo Survival: Drift, Urban, Core, and Sideshow. - New Mode Added: Exo Zombies. - New Weapon Added: AE4, and 10 of the AE4 variants have been added to the loot pool. - Added DLC playlists; HAVOC TDM, and HAVOC Mosh Pit. - Added Havoc DLC Maps to Hardcore Mosh Pit.
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