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Post by kylet357 on May 7, 2015 19:05:19 GMT -5
Everyone is going on about what to do with the two semi-auto primaries in AW. Now, one suggestion that I don't think is much of a good idea is to give them both a two hit kill. Before you start shitting yourself, I'm not against the MK14 having a two hit kill. I am against the EPM3 having a two hit kill because...well, the MK14 just wouldn't have any reason to exist if that happened. I think the EPM3, with the current buffs to its ability to fire more shots and extremely low recoil is pretty much perfect. So it's only the MK14 that needs to be fixed. Which is simple.
MK14 EBR: 50-40-29, 600-1400
This will give the MK14 a fair enough two hit kill range, and a pretty good three hit kill range (with only the Hole Puncher/Steel Bite overtaking it in this regard) and leave it for a four hit kill at long range (or two hit kill in hardcore at long range). Then you can just add in a 1.1 head multiplier for the MK14 and a 2.0 multiplier for the EPM3 (higher for higher damage variants). The EPM3 should stay a 3 hit kill at all ranges, to balance it against the MK14's better close range ability and penetration.
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prioc
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Post by prioc on May 7, 2015 19:24:36 GMT -5
I don't think it's a problem to kill in one shot at all ranges in HC, but otherwise it seems fine. I really just think the MK14 should have a consistent way to get 2SKs in close range, and it would be alright. at the moment I sort of wish that they hadn't changed it, I had the most fun and success with it before the patches. hopefully they'll still give it a good patch
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Post by kylet357 on May 7, 2015 21:22:46 GMT -5
I only really gave it that inability just so it was a bit more balanced among the EPM3. The EPM3 gets a one hit kill at all ranges. The MK14 doesn't, unless hit in the head. Sounds fair enough.
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Post by Megaqwerty on May 8, 2015 12:21:59 GMT -5
The EPM should be more powerful on a per shot basis than the Mk14.
Why? It has LMG handling while the Mk14 has AR handling. End of argument. You could theoretically give the EPM less damage per shot despite its poor handling by giving it some novel properties, but we all know that this is well beyond Sledgehammer's ability to comprehend, let alone implement.
To this effect, I would make the EPM extremely powerful per shot, the true marksman rifle, to compensate for its heavy handling. This is a clone of the MW3 Mk14. Damage: 99-90-49, 1.1 head multiplier Range: 1000-2000 RPM: 666 (i.e. effectively 600 RPM at 60 FPS) This allows one shot head shots up to 1000 units, two shot body shots up to 2000, and three shots past that (two shots with a single head shot). High values mean that the slightest bit of damage (ex. stun, EMP) will result in one shot kills before 1000 units
Overall, guns are much weaker in AW than they were in MW3, but the EPM also has worse handling and no penetration. Recoil might need adjustment though, as the post-patch recoil is absurdly low, but is probably balanced by the lower fire rate, which also prevents indiscriminate spamming.
Give the Exterminator no damage drop off (i.e. damage profile of 99-99-99).
The Mk14 should be weaker per shot than the above, but stronger per shot than every other assault rifle. (This sounds stupid, but Sledgehammer clearly didn't consider this when balancing the game.)
Every assault rifle is a three hit kill up close. The Mk thus needs to be stronger than this: it already is, with the head shot multiplier, but that's horribly inconsistent. At the opposite end, the longest three hit kill range is 2000 units (from the ARX plus damage variants) and thus the Mk14 should be able to, at the minimum, three shot kill up to that range.
How about this: Damage: 90-49-45, 1.1 head multiplier, 1.0 chest multiplier (because those are stupid) Range: 1000-2000 RPM: No change (but Desecrator should probably be raised past the 900 RPM threshold) Recoil: No change (but give the recoil down variants something else) Penetration: High by default (give the plus damage variants something else)
This is 2 head shot/2 body shot to 2 head shot/3 body shot to 3 head shot/3 body shot. High values allow for more penetration.
This allows the Mk14 to kill in less shots than all other assault rifles at all ranges and with superior wall banging capacity.
Per shot, it is comparable to my EPM before 1000 units and weaker past 2000 units. However, the Mk14 has better handling, thus making it superior overall before 1000 units despite the inability to one shot to the head. Past 1000 units, the EPM is definitively superior. It has the buff of infinite ammo.
Also, the Mk14 should totally one shot at all ranges in Touch Football. Until the latest patch, it didn't while the full auto assault rifle with infinite ammo did. This is bullshit.
Think anything I just said is overpowered? The Hole Puncher can kill in a single burst at 900 RPM up to 2000 units. These guns need to be stronger than that.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on May 8, 2015 12:52:48 GMT -5
Noh. MK14 EBR: 50-36, 300-1800 - linear damage drop Head/Neck: 1.4 Chest/Torso: 1.3
2HK to... 300 with no body shots 950 with 1 body shot 1500 with 2 body shots 1600 with 1 body shot/1 head shot Indefinitely with 2 head shots
No 2HK with penetration unless there's a body or head shot. This is surprisingly significant, at least in the past.
(This could also be for the EPM; either way this would need the recoil increased to pre-"buff" levels, and then some more) Also those ranges assume the game rounds damage down to nearest whole number, and then I rounded the result. Wouldn't be too different either way.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on May 8, 2015 13:47:54 GMT -5
Just import the Ghosts MK14. I loved that M14 because scope.
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Post by Megaqwerty on May 8, 2015 16:52:22 GMT -5
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Post by thegentleman on May 9, 2015 15:02:36 GMT -5
Thought:
I'd actually scrap the mechanics of the EPM3 as it is and go back to the drawing board. It's now a sniper. However, it needs to be charged for about .5 seconds when ADS'd. Gun fires when the button is released. No idle sway, one hit kill anywhere. Hefty overheat penalty, as heat builds while it charges regardless if the round is fired or not. Cancel a shot by dropping out of ADS mode. No aim assistance.
My rationale is that if you introduce a new requirement for a sniper to have to acquire a target and track them consistently for at least half a second, that should be rewarded as it's harder to pull off than a reactionary mash as soon as a target enters your crosshairs. It's also not something that could be spammed, per se. Similar to the Atlas 20mm, but instead of the sway/bad FOV, you give up the first half second of your reaction time and have to learn a new mechanic.
Future balancing can be built around the charge time.
It's also not like the EPM3 has to do anything considering it's an energy weapon and in kind of a catch-all category. Why not make it a sniper?
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Post by dunsparceflinch on May 9, 2015 15:45:36 GMT -5
So I'm about to say about of stuff and then it's all going to come together so here goes:
I prefer to integrate what is already done on the existing weapons. AW is a low damage game compared to BO2 and especially ghosts. The Lynx and m1 irons need to still be useful primaries. The FAL was considered an op gun in bo2 even in semi auto mode. In an earlier topic, killerpuffball suggested that the mk14 be 50-49-49 and the epm3 be 50-50-49 both with headshot multipliers reduced to 1.1 and no chest multipliers to compensate. I like that idea, but I also like if they did the following:
- increase the recoil on the mk14 by 15% (by both increasing viewkick and decreasing centerspeed by 15%), but change the 1.1 chest and neck multiplier to a 1.5 torso and neck multiplier. (34*1.5=51)
- increase the recoil on the epm3 by 20% the same way and change the damage back to 34-34-33, but add a 1.5 torso and neck multiplier.
- increase the exterminator headshot multiplier to 3.0, make the (-1 damage) epm3s 34-34-24, and make the (-2 damage) epm3s 34-33-24. (33*1.5=49.5) (24*1.5=36)
To start with the epm3, this would allow for a compromise where is gets a very decent 2hk range (26 meters) with the caveat being they must be body shots. The added recoil will prevent abuse by spamming and modded controllers, except on the bonafide, which would only have a 2 body shot kill range of 16.5 meters. The exterminator meanwhile would be useful again without making the Lynx useless because the Lynx would be better past 26 meters. All the range boosting variants would also become useful again. Overall the epm3 would become a marksman rifle that rewards accuracy rather than whoever has the fastest trigger finger.
The mk14 in comparison would regain its ability to 2 body shot people within 16.5 meters but now those two shot kills would be more likely than ever. In comparison to the epm3 it would have less 2 body shot kill range, a slower fire rate, and less ammo, but in return the mk14 would have bullet penetration, faster handling, better sights even when both have attachments, less recoil, and faster reload. The added recoil can be mostly countered by grip and high accuracy variants, one of which has less ammo and limited attachments and the other of which has a very low firecap. The body shot multiplier will also lead to a lot more 2-3hks on enemies in mid and long range because 33*1.5 rounds down to 49. It will basically function like the bo2 FAL but with lower limb damage.
The m1 irons in comparison would have better limb shots, better handling than both, faster reload, and the lowest recoil, but the mk14 and epm3 would be much better at handling multiple enemies and simply put most people aren't going to land 3 or 4 out of 6 rounds on a distant moving target.
The Lynx would still be the accurate 2hk sniper rifle of choice even with iron sights. It's advantages would be limb shots, predictable recoil, and long range shots, while its downsides would be handling, magazine size, and reload.
The only issue I would anticipate with this is people gravitating towards the exterminator as their epm3 of choice, but that's okay because there is always a variant or two that people gravitate towards. But overall the idea is that there are now these different options:
- mk14 desecrator: high fire rate, moderate-low recoil - epm3 bonafide: low recoil and super spammable, but damage is lower past 16.5 meters and low past 26 meters. - epm3 exterminator: moderate recoil, overheats quicker, but can kill in one headshot fairly far - mk14 eclipse: very low recoil and high penetration, but bad hipfire and bad firerate - eagle eye: 19 meters 2hk range and same ads time as the m1 irons (due to the free QuickDraw) but low magazine size and limited attachments. Moderate-low recoil - parsec: moderate recoil, longest 2hk range at about 31.5 meters, but only sights for attachments
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Post by Megaqwerty on May 10, 2015 19:27:29 GMT -5
Sounds like you're playing the wrong game. AW is a low damage game compared to BO2 and especially ghosts. There's an assault rifle that can kill in a single burst at 900 RPM up to 2000 units.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on May 10, 2015 22:33:42 GMT -5
Well honestly they need to rebalance the range of the ARX by making it 850-1400. And that's just two variants of the ARX that can one burst up to 2000 units.
In comparison, what was the one burst range of the SWAT? Yes it had a slower fire rate, but wasn't it something like 40 meters with a high headshot multiplier?
Yes there are a few exceptions/variants to the low damage/ttk thing in aw, but for the most part the damage is lower. Look at the mp11 and compare it to the mp7. Look at the ak12 and compare it to the ghosts ak12. Look at the MORS and compare it to the ghosts snipers and ballista.
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Post by Megaqwerty on May 11, 2015 16:45:00 GMT -5
Well honestly they need to rebalance the range of the ARX by making it 850-1400. And that's just two variants of the ARX that can one burst up to 2000 units. That's an opinion. If the Hole Puncher fails to kill in that one burst, its TTK advantage is lost. This balances the gun. Advanced Warfare as a whole suffers from shit balancing due to weapon variants, but they still need to be considered holistically.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on May 11, 2015 19:16:43 GMT -5
Well honestly they need to rebalance the range of the ARX by making it 850-1400. And that's just two variants of the ARX that can one burst up to 2000 units. That's an opinion. If the Hole Puncher fails to kill in that one burst, its TTK advantage is lost. This balances the gun. Advanced Warfare as a whole suffers from shit balancing due to weapon variants, but they still need to considered holistically. With regards to the ARX, it needs the range rework to make it other variants more usable. Burst weapons have always been about 1 burst kills in close and mid range and having to spam for more bursts at long range. That's how the m8, type95, m16, g11 (or whatever that burst gun from black ops was called), and many other burst weapons worked and it's how the imr works. With regards to the variants, you're right that they need to be considered, but the semi-auto's would also have variants that compare more fairly. An exterminator that could 1 headshot kill up to 26 meters and two body shot in the same range would compare closely to ghosts' marksman rifles but with a better fire rate. The sherif would function with the exact same 2 body shot kill range as the bo2 FAL, but body shots would do 49 damage for a further range and the sherif would have a faster fire rate. For less accuracy but better hipfire and fire rate the desecrator would also compare nicely.
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Post by kylet357 on May 14, 2015 6:16:50 GMT -5
Needing to use multipliers to make a semi-auto weapon is a horrible idea, imo. I'd just give the base damage a buff and leave it at that. As for the ARX, they could just make it a reskinned M16A4 from MW2.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on May 14, 2015 13:27:50 GMT -5
Needing to use multipliers to make a semi-auto weapon is a horrible idea, imo. I'd just give the base damage a buff and leave it at that. As for the ARX, they could just make it a reskinned M16A4 from MW2. I guess I'll just expand on killerpuffball's idea with some tweaks for balancing. It would require changing more about the guns, but it would be very consistent: - take away the mk14's chest and neck multiplier, change the headshot multiplier to 1.3 - increase the mk14 recoil by 15% (both increase in viewkick and decrease in centerspeed), but change the damage to 52-48-34. - change the epm3 headshot multiplier to 1.3 and increase recoil 20% the same way, but change the damage to 70-50-34 - make the exterminator a 1.5 headshot multiplier, make the -1dmg epm3s 70-50-33, and make the -2 dmg epm3s 70-48-33 My only complaint with this is that it makes the m1 irons outclassed. But otherwise this would work in making powerful 2hk semi autos with options: - sheriff for those that want a powerful yet accurate semiauto with bad hipfire - eagleeye for those that like thr iron sights of the mk14 and want more range - parsec for the furthest 2hk range for a non sniper at the cost of only being able to use one attachment - bonafide for the most spammable epm3 at the cost of about half of its 2hk range - desecrator for the highest firerate mk14 but it has the bad mk14 sights and you'll have to use a grip to take advantage of that fire rate. - exterminator the ability to 1 headshot people at close range. As for the ARX, I think making the the range 900-1400 would be best because then the other variants would be useful while making the steel bite and hole puncher good but not too good.
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Post by RainbowCrash on May 14, 2015 15:51:55 GMT -5
My thoughts:
Atlas 45: increase R1 to 300 change D3 on variants with "-1 damage" to 24
MP-433 Grach: increase R1 to 300 increase magazine size to 15 no burst delay
ARX 160: decrease D2 on hole puncher variant to 32, add 1.1x chest multiplier(only to hole puncher) (this would make the steel bite arguably better considering its elite over professional) decrease R2 to 1600
EPM3: New damage Profile: 50-49-34, 1.1x chest, 1.8x head Range: 900 - 2000 1000 RPM (keep same low recoil)
Mk14: New damage Profile: 60-49-34, 1.1x chest, 2.0x head Range: 700 - 1600 700 RPM (Increase viewkick to original levels)
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Post by kylet357 on May 15, 2015 6:37:46 GMT -5
There's a reason I said adding chest multipliers to regular, non-sniper rifle weapons are a bad idea. It's because they scream "I purposely gimped this weapon in one way just to add this in". They could just do this:
For the ARX, change the ranges. Decrease D2, increase D1. Simple. And the Hole Puncher and Steel Bite are still useful. For the MK14, change the damages and ranges. This is up to debate, but we don't need an extremely long two hit kill considering the range of these maps. Something about mid range would do (think 500-700, seems about the perfect range for these maps). EPM3, as I said, I think it's quite fine the way it is. Infinite three hit kill with an extremely high fire cap. Maybe a tweak or two, but nothing major (probably a change to its headshot multiplier).
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Post by dunsparceflinch on May 15, 2015 8:12:34 GMT -5
There's a reason I said adding chest multipliers to regular, non-sniper rifle weapons are a bad idea. It's because they scream "I purposely gimped this weapon in one way just to add this in". They could just do this: For the ARX, change the ranges. Decrease D2, increase D1. Simple. And the Hole Puncher and Steel Bite are still useful. For the MK14, change the damages and ranges. This is up to debate, but we don't need an extremely long two hit kill considering the range of these maps. Something about mid range would do (think 500-700, seems about the perfect range for these maps). EPM3, as I said, I think it's quite fine the way it is. Infinite three hit kill with an extremely high fire cap. Maybe a tweak or two, but nothing major (probably a change to its headshot multiplier). So for the ARX, would you find 900-1400 good? It's normal 1 burst kill range is less than the imr, but the ARX can get further 1 burst kills from headshots. For the mk14 making the damage 52-48-34 would achieve what you are saying since the first range of the mk14 is 650. Add a little recoil so that people have to choose between accuracy and fire rate, and we are good. I disagree about the epm3 though. Making it simply an infinite 3hk leaves too many problems with variant usefulness and makes the mk14 better. Especially when you consider the ads spread of the epm3. Making the epm3 70-50-34 would give players reasons to use it over the mk14. And of course it would need some recoil added so that the way to get the old spammable epm3 is to use the bonafide or legit with grip. That way people have to choose between good 2hk range and spammability.
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Post by kylet357 on May 15, 2015 8:20:32 GMT -5
900-1500 (OCD) should be good, fair enough range, doesn't take away from the 3 hit kill of the Hole Puncher and Steel Bite too much. That seems fine for the MK14 as well. I'm still a bit skeptical about giving the EPM3 a two hit kill, just because of its high fire rate. I mean, any asshole with a modded controller (or even worse, an aimbot) will be an incredibly large pain in the ass.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on May 15, 2015 9:01:09 GMT -5
900-1500 (OCD) should be good, fair enough range, doesn't take away from the 3 hit kill of the Hole Puncher and Steel Bite too much. That seems fine for the MK14 as well. I'm still a bit skeptical about giving the EPM3 a two hit kill, just because of its high fire rate. I mean, any asshole with a modded controller (or even worse, an aimbot) will be an incredibly large pain in the ass. That's why in all my buff suggestions I put in that they should increase viewkick by 20% and decrease centerspeed by 20%. I might tweak those numbers if need be, but the idea is to add recoil as a counter to modded controllers. The epm3 needs a 2hk range and a further one than the mk14 because the only advantages it would have is better 2hk range, infinite ammo, and better fire rate. The mk14 meanwhile would have better handling, bullet penetration, better accuracy, better sights, and faster reload.
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Post by RainbowCrash on May 15, 2015 9:25:49 GMT -5
The reason I feel the semis should have the chest multiplier is that they are kind of tailored towards a marksman type weapon, therefore I set up the damage so that you can get 2 hit kills at mid range for accurate shots. and it wont change the shots to kill in any other range but for mid range.
Edit: but then again, there's really no place for marksman playstyle in Advanced Warfafe
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