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Post by xX MacMillan Xx on Mar 21, 2010 19:05:25 GMT -5
"Going back to the studio tomorrow to work on Balance tweaks. On the list: M60, M1911, and AA. Up, down, sideways? I won't say..." about 5 hours ago via Digsby A link to Demize's Twitter for proof:http://twitter.com/Demize99
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Post by fatsix on Mar 21, 2010 21:16:44 GMT -5
a usp 45 with 12 rounds would be nice. doubt it tho. 1911 will probobly loose some range.
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Post by jackson on Mar 21, 2010 22:45:00 GMT -5
I haven't found the M60 to be over powered. At least not on consoles. It's TTK is the lowest of the LMGs, but it's recoil is pretty fierce. At range with a 4x scope, it seems to land one on target, and the rest start going way high. And it only has 100 rounds in reserve, meaning the lowest ammo count of all the LMGs.
The 1911 could use a few tweaks. It's just a touch too powerful right now. But it you increase the STK, it becomes an M9 with a smaller magazine. Perhaps a range/recoil/accuracy tweak is in order?
The AA? Meaning the Anti-Aircraft gun? How does it need tweaked?
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Post by crescendo on Mar 22, 2010 9:17:48 GMT -5
I haven't found the M60 to be over powered. At least not on consoles In my opinion it is overpowered on the PC because managing recoil is relatively trivial with a mouse. I've been whoring it a lot over the last two weeks in anticipation of a nerf. In a one versus one guns-only fight with players of equal skill, the person who uses M60 will almost always win. In my experience the lower ROF doesn't seem to matter much at all in light of the high damage. With a red dot sight or ACOG (I find that the M60's iron sights are too obstructing) and the magnum perk, the M60 is even more formidable. When fighting multiple enemies the M60 is always the best choice due to the 100 round magazine. I can't tell you the amount of times I've killed 4 or 5 people in the space of 10 seconds because they were using weaker weapons and had to reload. An organised squad of medics using the M60 with one engineer or recon (for anti-vehicle and anti-emplacement duty) is pretty much unstoppable on a public server. I don't know how it would play out in a clan match, but I would be surprised if the M60 isn't the cornerstone of any effective anti-infantry strategy. As for the 1911, I think it would be best dealt with by either slightly lowering the ROF, or by making it 4 shots to kill at close range instead of 3. Regarding the AA (as said earlier, I assume they mean anti-aircraft), I have no idea what the problem is. If anything it seems underpowered when you consider how quick and easy it is to kill someone on an AA emplacement (sniper bullet to the head, one or two hits from an attack chopper chain gun). I considered that the nerf might be due the weakness of the AH-60's minguns, but I can't think of a map where there are both AA emplacements and AH-60s (correct me if I'm wrong).
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Post by cheshire on Mar 22, 2010 9:46:55 GMT -5
I haven't found the M60 to be over powered. At least not on consoles. It's TTK is the lowest of the LMGs, but it's recoil is pretty fierce. At range with a 4x scope, it seems to land one on target, and the rest start going way high. And it only has 100 rounds in reserve, meaning the lowest ammo count of all the LMGs. The 1911 could use a few tweaks. It's just a touch too powerful right now. But it you increase the STK, it becomes an M9 with a smaller magazine. Perhaps a range/recoil/accuracy tweak is in order? The AA? Meaning the Anti-Aircraft gun? How does it need tweaked? I'm not sure if you're trolling or just in love with the m60 and in denial. The m60 requires 3 less hits for a kill than the next best LMG, has practically no recoil whatsoever if you tap the trigger as fast as you can instead of holding it down, does the most damage to vehicles; it is in no way balanced or in line with any other primary weapon in the game. The need for its nerf is apparent. I'm in love with the m1911, but I have to admit it is similarly not in line with the pistols as a backup handgun. That said, some of us use pistols as our main weapons when playing a medic (I know I'm not the only one, I've seen others sprinting around holding them) and the ammo count on the M1911 already stops abuse of it for that purpose, forcing the otherwise inferior m9 on us. In terms of fixing AA, I imagine they're talking about joy-stick enabled high-end helicopter pilots. Helicopter manoeuvrability exceeds missile tracking speed, even with a miraculous tracer dart stick, and now that the more dedicated pilots have forced recognition of their joysticks, there's almost nothing you can do against a Hind or Aparche in the hands of a good pilot. Throw in a dedicated gunner, and you can't even beat their TTK 1v1 with a tank. I assume this is what they're addressing, though I could be wrong.
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Post by fatsix on Mar 22, 2010 11:31:35 GMT -5
You forgot to mention having a engineer in the helicopter as well. Fixing it while it flies around (I'm guilty of doing it). 100 points definitely isn't worth it, but you have to shoo it away or you get decimated. Should be more like a 1000 points with some of these pilots.
The 1911's damage shouldn't be touched. It falls right in between the rex and m9/443. The rex is slower and more powerful, the m9 has more bullets. I could see a tweak on far damage since it deals the same as the rex on far damage, but anything other than that, i think i'll be going back to the 443. They also do more dammage on far than most other guns, look at the m14,which is a sniper rifle.
I get killed by spamming medics all the time. So my opinion would is biased. Widen the the spread on the m60 and make the reset time longer.
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Post by jackson on Mar 22, 2010 11:46:18 GMT -5
I'm not sure if you're trolling or just in love with the m60 and in denial. The m60 requires 3 less hits for a kill than the next best LMG, has practically no recoil whatsoever if you tap the trigger as fast as you can instead of holding it down, does the most damage to vehicles; it is in no way balanced or in line with any other primary weapon in the game. The need for its nerf is apparent. Love the jabs thrown in there. Not enough to state your differing opinion, but have to get those insults in there too. That's cool. I won't reciprocate that back. But you may want to refresh your definition of trolling. Discussing game mechanics on a forum focused on discussing game mechanics does not equal trolling. Having a different opinion from cheshire does not equal trolling. Where did I state that I like the M60? I said it has a good TTK, but bad recoil thus poor accuracy and a low ammo count. I actually hate the M60. XM8 LMG is where it's at for me. Not sure where you get the 3 fewer shots to kill. At least on consoles it's only 1 fewer shot to kill, and even on PC with the 25% damage difference, that shouldn't add up to 3 shots. It is my opinion that it doesn't need much if any tweaking for consoles. It is your opinion that it does need tweaked on PC. Don't go touting your opinion as fact. You can use fact to back it up, but it still comes down to interpretation of the facts and opinion. And of course we are talking about two very different platforms, so it may be very well that we are both correct. Your analysis for PC does not equate to consoles. And vice versa.
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Post by cheshire on Mar 22, 2010 12:32:10 GMT -5
My apologies. The imbalanced nature of the m60 seems so self-evident to me that my legitimate first response was that any opinion otherwise had to be trolling. Truth be told, had I noticed it was you who said it, I would have taken it in a different light, considering our discussion on Medic specialization selection in the past. I was being defensive, not aggressive, and there's no doubt this came through in those light jabs. Crescendo far more aptly stated the case and even began his first sentence with those ever-so-important words. I'm citing 3 less shots to kill based on the charts found on these forums. Specifically right here: denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general2&action=display&thread=1165which show the "long" range kill at 5. The next lowest is a singly entry at 7 shots, then four of them at 8, and the last at 10. Damage is also way out of proportion, with 25 at short range (second place is 16.7), and 20 at long range (second place is 14.3), etc etc. As far as the recoil goes, I'll use your own disclaimer to admit that I'm not sure if it's the same on console as it is on PC, but you can entirely mitigate the spread on the M60 by not holding down the trigger, but instead madly clicking the fire button. Fired like this the m60 is accurate to a tiny spread even if you're strafing while you do it. I can't think of another setup that can beat the m60 in a damage race at medium to long range with this technique. ...well, except the Carl Gustav. MMmmm, Carl, why are you so sexy?
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Post by earlofevil on Mar 22, 2010 14:35:04 GMT -5
The M60 is too powerful comparded to the other lmg's. There really isn't any other reason to use any other. Medic's are supposed to be a support class. But, with the M60 they have become the assault class.
I'm guessing the m1911 will have it's damaged reduced a little to make it a 3 hit kill at close range with magnum.
As for the AA, they do this in every BF that I've played. They make it impossible to do anything against aircraft. Give us a stinger (make it 2 hits to take a chopper down or make the At4 an anti-aircraft weapon).
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Post by xX MacMillan Xx on Mar 22, 2010 19:42:10 GMT -5
The M60 is too powerful comparded to the other lmg's. There really isn't any other reason to use any other. Medic's are supposed to be a support class. But, with the M60 they have become the assault class. I'm guessing the m1911 will have it's damaged reduced a little to make it a 3 hit kill at close range with magnum. As for the AA, they do this in every BF that I've played. They make it impossible to do anything against aircraft. Give us a stinger (make it 2 hits to take a chopper down or make the At4 an anti-aircraft weapon). Actually, I hope they are improving the AA and placing more on the maps like Valparaiso or Isla Innocentes where they are actually needed.
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Post by fender on Mar 22, 2010 20:30:31 GMT -5
They need to add more AA Cannons on some maps, and give them a buff.
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Post by grimnebulin on Mar 22, 2010 22:30:56 GMT -5
Y'all did see this right... twitter.com/Demize99:"Nothing in stats to suggest the lmgs a a whole are unbalanced #BFBC2" about 9 hours ago via Tweetie from Kungsholmen, Stockholm
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Post by crescendo on Mar 23, 2010 11:42:47 GMT -5
Y'all did see this right... twitter.com/Demize99:"Nothing in stats to suggest the lmgs a a whole are unbalanced #BFBC2" about 9 hours ago via Tweetie from Kungsholmen, Stockholm He may be right or wrong, but unfortunately we simply can't know unless he discloses his methodology. There may in fact not be significant statistical evidence of the medic class being overpowered in DICE's logs, but this could be an artefact of the community itself and not the actual strengths and weaknesses of the weapons. For example, Demize99 says on his Twitter page that "Medics are the least effective killers. 4/4". I interpret this as the medic class having the smallest amount of total kills. On the surface this would seem to suggest that the LMGs aren't unbalanced, but there is a trap here that we should take care to avoid. To clarify, the smaller amount of medic class kills could be a result a smaller amount of players playing the medic class, or the medic play style (reviving and healing), or the fact that the better players may prefer other classes, or any other similar confounding variable. If the M60 is overpowered it might not even be detectable using raw stats if these variables aren't controlled for. As I said earlier, we don't know how Demize99 is interpreting the data available to him. If he his controlling for the variables above or at least being somewhat sophisticated about what data he uses to make weapon balance judgments (e.g. the K/D ratio of players when they use individual weapons), then he might be right. If not, it is unlikely that he will see the M60 as being overpowered because there is "Nothing in stats to suggest the lmgs a a whole are unbalanced" (my emphasis). Basically, what I'm saying is that a weapon can still be overpowered even if not many people (or the right types of people) use it. If Demize99 is any good at his job he understands this.
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Post by porkyownsu on Mar 25, 2010 18:06:11 GMT -5
looking at the guns stats all the weapons are quite balanced compared to lmgs except the m60.
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Post by jackson on Mar 25, 2010 18:54:01 GMT -5
I take back what I said. Evidently since this Twitter post, it's spread all around the internet that the M60 is overpowered and now everyone is using it. In the past few days probably 50% of my deaths have been to the M60. Nearly 95% of Medics use nothing but the M60 now.
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Post by xX MacMillan Xx on Mar 25, 2010 19:43:25 GMT -5
I take back what I said. Evidently since this Twitter post, it's spread all around the internet that the M60 is overpowered and now everyone is using it. In the past few days probably 50% of my deaths have been to the M60. Nearly 95% of Medics use nothing but the M60 now. All I ever get killed by now is the M60.I joined a Squad rush match with me vs 4 people who were all medics who spammed the M60.Needless to say if I got teammates they left as I eventually did.
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Post by fatsix on Apr 1, 2010 8:35:42 GMT -5
any updates?
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