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Post by keating on Jun 9, 2010 21:04:42 GMT -5
So, I've had this chart for a while when I made it myself about 2 months ago using the stats from this site, and I've kept it up to date . I feel like sharing it with you guys, maybe you'll find it helpful. spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkozDmoBxyIndDNhUWdmaWxhQldycEV1SWNLUjJPZVE&hl=en#gid=0It's got damage/second (important for general combat situations where the enemy having exactly 100% health can't be assumed), base spread (I know Den's charts already have this), increase in spread/second (net increase, taking into account ever-present recovery), recoil/second (using the imperfect equation of AMPxKICK, I now think AMP is more relevant), and damage/clip (important for continuing firefights). [shots/second is thrown on their for my own personal convenience during calculations]. I was originally going to use it with my friends that got the game with me, but they have long since ditched it/me. So, I'm currently looking for squadmates to play with if anyone's interested. Thanks for your work, Den, you are my bro, bro! ;D P.S. Den, I'd still love to have all those stats for sighted+moving if you're willing to give them to me before you make the next patch update, cause who knows how long till it comes out...
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Post by sovapid on Jun 9, 2010 21:17:35 GMT -5
Am I retarded (no offense to anyone who is reading this and is actually retarded) or is the chart invisible?
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Post by blablabity on Jun 9, 2010 21:29:47 GMT -5
Invisible charts are the best.
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Post by keating on Jun 9, 2010 21:39:47 GMT -5
Hahaha, I completely forgot to actually add the chart itself , I think that's a sign I need to get some more sleep and less BC2. 'tis now fixed ;D
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Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
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Post by Den on Jun 10, 2010 16:42:41 GMT -5
Kay.
Spread While Moving:
1.0 AEK-971 1.0 XM8 0.7 F2000 0.8 AUG 0.7 AN94 1.0 M416 0.8 M16
0.7 9A91 0.7 SCAR 0.8 XM8c 0.8 AKs74u 0.4 Uzi 0.5 PP2000 0.4 UMP
2.0 All LMGs
2.0 All Recon Rifles
2.0 M1 Garand 2.0 M14 2.0 G3 0.4 Thompson
0.5 Slug Pump Shotguns 1.0 Slug Auto Shotguns
0.3 M9, MP443, 1911 0.2 REX 0.8 M93r
All pistols have the same spread standing still as they do moving when zoomed. They are the most accurate weapons on the move.
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Post by keating on Jun 10, 2010 20:48:06 GMT -5
Thanks Den! I'll add that to my chart.
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Post by keating on Jun 20, 2010 17:22:57 GMT -5
Alright, I want to make a final authoritative damage/second list with values for every weapon that takes into account both the situations where the target is already injured and when they are not.
To add this to the chart, I need to know what percentage of time are firing at people who are already injured. This is because when people aren't injured, and you're firing at someone with 100% health, then the respective "time to kill chart" is perfect, but your enemy won't always have 100% health, and you also won't always kill your enemy, so the percentage of damage done to him is important, except in the rare case that the same guy will go on to be killed by the exact same weapon before he starts regenerating any health.
So, I'm going to ask a question, and take a rough average of the answers I get, so I can weight the "time to kill" chart and my own damage/second value together.
So, percentage-wise, on average, of all the people that you start to injure with any weapon or explosive, how many would you say you proceed under the following conditions:
1) you kill him 2) you were unassisted in the kill 3) with a single weapon (not switching to a different gun or explosive) 4) without leaving enough time (6 seconds of no damage) for the enemy to begin regenerating health 5) and while he's NOT within the range of a healthpack?
When all of those conditions are met, then the "time to kill chart" is perfectly accurate, and I will know how to weight the data.
And secondly, what percentage of people that you injure do you feel end up fully regenerating the damage that you incurred, whether by healthpack or auto-regeneration?
Please provide both a percentage for you vs. other people as well as the number of times that you feel people attacking you meet these criteria; so 4 percentages in total. Please answer any number of the four the questions if feel that you have a decent idea of the answer, I want as many data samples to average as possible.
Thanks!
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Post by Protolisk on Jun 21, 2010 2:24:14 GMT -5
I dont think I can provide accurate percentages but I can say that from experience.
1)80% (most of the time but sometimes they get away, usually its me who initiates) 2)50% (if I'm rushing or fighting head to head then usually I take damage while shooting at them, if I'm tactical loitering then I hardly ever take damage) 3)90% (usually unless against a group of enemies) 4)95% *almost always 5)90% *most of the time unless I can't see the med pack
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Post by zany on Jul 15, 2010 15:08:43 GMT -5
so from that chart i understand that the 9A91 is the best weapon from the eng class? (i'm on ps3)
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Post by keating on Jul 15, 2010 18:35:03 GMT -5
Alrighty, I think I'll give my whole rundown of what weapons I prefer and why.
Firstly, my preferred weapons, and then why:
Assault Rifle: M16A2 Sub-Machine Gun: PP-2000 (for long range) Light Machine Gun: PKM (if going without a scope) Bolt-Action Sniper Rifle: SV98 Automatic Sniper Rifle: VSS Handgun: M9 Shotgun: Neostead2000 (with slugs)
Also, depending on the situation...... UMP (for close range) MG36 (if wanting a free scope) MG3 (if adding a scope or not minding the horrible ironsights) G3 (if you really want a different gun for your class) Saiga (with extended magazines for some awesome CQC power)
Never use: F2000 T88 LMG
A couple things before I start explanations: I'm a guy who prefers accuracy and versatility over brute power, and to be honest, most of the weapons in BC2 are extremely similar to each other, so there's not a whole lot of difference between which weapon you choose, particularly in the sense of SMGs and LMGs. Also, I always reload cancel when it makes a difference (I don't consider it cheating), so I always care about Den's "add" stats as opposed to the full reload stats.
I'll start with engineer, since you asked about that:
From an accuracy sense, both firing from the hip and while zoomed (you're always moving as well, of course) The last 3 SMGs are far superior 2/2.5 -> 1.5 and .7/.8 ->.4/.5. Now, if you look, it also appears that the UZI and PP2000 have higher increases in spread/second, but that only cancels out what I previously said when you're firing fully automatic for over a second, which I rarely do, unless up close.
Clip damage wise, they're all 500, except the UZI and 9A-91 which drop to 400, and the SCAR, which is up at 600. But, looking at the SCAR for a second, and you'll see that the UMP is better every way except for that 20% increase in clip damage, so I would throw the SCAR out. If you look at the close damages, they're all fairly regular at 187-209, but the there's a huge discrepancy with the far damages, with the UZI and PP-2000 soaring 30-45 DPS higher than the other weapons. Comparing those 2 , the PP-2000 takes the prize with the higher clip damage and lower recoil. But up close, those 2 also drop out at 7-21 DPS lower than the others, so if you're looking for a good CQC SMG, let's continue looking at the remaining 4 (9A-91, XM8, AKS-74, and UMP). Between the AKS-74 and UMP, UMP wins out, with higher accuracies and recoil, and no difference in DPS or clip damage. And while the XM8 (compared to the UMP) has 5-10% higher damage, it loses to the UMP with 25-100% worse accuracy and 50% worse recoil. But the 9A-91 fairs a little better against the UMP than the XM8 with the smallest spread increase of all the SMGs at 1 (balancing out it's higher starting spreads). While the 9A does 15% more long-range damage, it also has more recoil and less clip damage. Close call there, but I would go with the UMP, because I like to go with 4x (ACOG) scopes and therefore I have no room to throw extra ammo in the mix there. Ammo is of greatest concern with the SMGs because of various reasons, and this is why clip damage matters most with them. Also, of one last note, is that all the SMGs have very similar reload ("add") times except for the XM8, which reloads about 15% faster, but not enough of a difference to make me use it.
And to see if the TTK charts agree with me: the 9A-91 takes first place under average TTK with magnum (I usually use magnum for Engineer), with the PP2000 and UZI as a close second and third.
Now, on to assault rifles! Firstly, exclude the F2000 because it sucks (lowest close and average damage, never has perfect shots, high recoil, and lowest clip damage in the game of any primary weapon). Also, I think the AN-94 is overpowered because of it's insanely good accuracy and ridiculously low recoil and high clip damage, so I try to avoid using that, but I also fire a lot of of long-range rounds, and it doesn't kill very fast at range, but since that recent long range damage nerf, I may have to reconsider whether or not it is too powerful Close damage is extremely close for all the assault rifles, but far damage is another story. The M16 and AEK take the gold and silver, with the XM8 not too far behind. The M16 has a little better accuracy as well and a little less recoil, on top of it being a burst rifle and having the fastest reload of all the assault rifles, so I believe it is the best assault rifle by a significant margin if you're going to be shooting at people more than 20-30 meters away from you. The fact that it is a burst weapon means that you hardly ever have to hold down the trigger which translates into far less actual recoil because of the way BC2 weapons work, so essentially every 3rd bullet is fired with perfect near-perfect recoil (although not accuracy). The AN-94, however fires basically every OTHER bullet with near-perfect recoil AND accuracy, so it's probably the better gun. If you really don't like burst rifles, the M416 beats out the AUG with higher long damage, and the XM8 has tons of recoil, so I'd go with the M416, although the AEK, is close behind with more long damage but higher recoil worse clip damage, and longer reload. Lastly, looking at the average TTK with magnum ammo (I always use magnum as assault), the XM8 takes first place, but I disregard that due to it's huge recoil. Tied for second and third is the M16 and AEK, and extremely close behind them lies the M416 in fourth place.
Now, LMGs: First, throw the T88 LMG because of the horrible DPS at both ranges since the recent nerf. One thing that makes the LMGs easy is because they all have identical starting accuracies, and only 2 have significantly different spread increases. And they all have similar DPS at about 183 short and 153 long, except for the MG3, which rockets ahead at 15% more damage than all the others. The 2x spread increase is only a problem if you're firing fully automatic. I don't find clip damage a problem between the LMGs, because they all have more than I can use, and their recoils are fairly close. But there's a couple of problems: I also use my medic class with both of the medkit upgrades, and so I need a gun with good ironsights, so I go with the PKM, with it's lowest recoil of the LMGs. Looking at the TTK charts under non-magnum ammo, the MG3 takes a solid first place in both close and far ranges (and of course average as well), and the M60 takes second in all 3 categories, but I hate the ironsights on both, and thankfully my beloved PKM slides in at #3, again in all 3 categories.
Bolt-Action Sniper Rifles: All 4 of the sniper rifles have the same damages (except for a minor and insignificant increase in the M95's long range damage) so I choose the SV98 because it fires the quickest of all of them, has 2x more rounds rounds in its magazine than any of the others (which also translates into 2x as many bullets in inventory!!!!), and has the highest scope visibility of all the bolt-actions. It may have more annoying crosshairs, but they just take a little getting used to.
In terms of automatic sniper rifles: The VSS has the highest DPS of any weapon in the entire game by far, and the lowest TTK of any weapon short of one-shotting weapons. Keep it's original scope or equip it with a red-dot/4x for good visbility when firing up close or into dark areas (because those scopes are lit up red) and you've got yourself a killing machine. Also, putting magnum ammo on decreases it's shots needed to kill at long range from 4 to 5, making it kill at 4 shots any range. Just remember it's still got pretty significant recoil, so fire in 1 or 2-shot bursts.
Of the handguns, it's mostly a personal preference, however: While the M93R has the highest DPS of any handgun (instead of having a significantly subpar damage compared to primary weapons [like all the other handguns do], it lies right in line with them) it also has the largest increase spread/second in the entire game, making it essentially useless unless firing it extremely slowly or at someone extremely close. After for firing for 1 second, you must wait 2 seconds before it's spread returns to normal. Also, since handguns are usually pulled out after damaging someone, TTK charts are useless (TTK charts only apply when someone is being brought from 100 health to 0 health with a single weapon AND without any external/other influences). Looking at the DPS, the M9, MP-443, and M1911 are very similar, with the MP-412 revolver a little behind. Going down that list, recoil gets worse and worse, and the M1911 also have a lot less killing power in their clips than the first 2. I would actually go with the MP-443 if I actually could click as fast as it can fire, but I don't; so I go with the M9 with the lowest recoil and second-best clip damage.
For the shotguns: The 3 pump-action shotguns are identical with the exception of reloading times, and the same applies to the 2 automatic shotguns, so my preference for the Neostead and Saiga lies simply in their lower reload times ("add" of course, because I always "reload-cancel"). I also prefer using slugs with the pump shotguns because it guarantees a one-hit kill anywhere within 10 meters of me, and a 2 shot-kill with perfect accuracy anywhere else (must be zoomed and standing still of course). Also, I prefer the automatic shotguns with extended magazines because it allows you to rampage in CQC for a long time without having to reload.
Alright, that's it. I hope people find it helpful and not ridiculously hard to get through, and I'm sure there are plenty of typos, but I think I've spend enough time on this post already so I'm gonna be signing off. ;D
Edit: After doing a little bit more ingame testing with a couple of weapons last night, I found out 2 interesting things. Firstly, in response to your point about the F2000, apparently its not as inaccurate with sustained fire as I thought it would be, but it's still not reliable at long ranges, and it has easily the worst close damage out of all the assault rifles, as well as the smallest clip. However, more importantly, I found that the PP2000 only has 2 extra clips in inventory; 1 less compared to every other SMG, which has 3 extra clips in inventory. So you are more likely to run out of ammo with the PP2000 than I thought, but the same also applies to the 9A-91 and the UZI, so if you want a good weapon that doesn't run out of ammo, then go with the UMP, or possibly the high-damage XM8. [but with good teammates/a good squad, ammo shouldn't be an issue]. Lastly, on a third sidenote, I found that the UMP's reload animation does n't show if you use the automatic reload that it does after running out of ammo in your clip, which can be quite annoying or even disorienting. Just something to think about.
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Post by zany on Jul 16, 2010 4:21:45 GMT -5
^great post keating!, very informative thank you. i only play as eng, so it's very interesting to see that the best weapons are the 9A-91 & the UMP, although i still prefer the xm8
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Post by grimnebulin on Jul 16, 2010 9:35:01 GMT -5
Agreed, nice post, keating. Disagree with you on a few points but they're more 'my preference' vs. 'mathematical conclusion' -- e.g., F2000 is dogsh*t on paper but I just seem to be effective with it (same with AEK-971, pre-patch). To each their own but I do appreciate the time and effort in your post. Kudos, honestly.
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Post by zany on Jul 16, 2010 11:02:58 GMT -5
btw i forgot to ask, are this stats the same for the consoles?
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Post by keating on Jul 17, 2010 21:06:00 GMT -5
Just made an additional comment to the my weapon analysis post:
"After doing a little bit more ingame testing with a couple of weapons last night, I found out 2 interesting things. Firstly, in response to your point about the F2000, apparently its not as inaccurate with sustained fire as I thought it would be, but it's still not reliable at long ranges, and it has easily the worst close damage out of all the assault rifles, as well as the smallest clip. However, more importantly, I found that the PP2000 only has 2 extra clips in inventory; 1 less compared to every other SMG, which has 3 extra clips in inventory. So you are more likely to run out of ammo with the PP2000 than I thought, but the same also applies to the 9A-91 and the UZI, so if you want a good weapon that doesn't run out of ammo, then go with the UMP, or possibly the high-damage XM8. [but with good teammates/a good squad, ammo shouldn't be an issue]. Lastly, on a third sidenote, I found that the UMP's reload animation does n't show if you use the automatic reload that it does after running out of ammo in your clip, which can be quite annoying or even disorienting. Just something to think about."
And by the way, I believe that the consoles should currently have the exact same stats as the PC, although even Den can't be 100% sure if there aren't minor differences, because he can't access those files.
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