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Post by dracox on Mar 1, 2009 21:15:46 GMT -5
I think Stopping Power is the most used perk in the game. I understand that it is easier to kill people, but now im even asking myself why i use it... Its just [glow=red,2,300]one more bullet[/glow]. What do you guys think? I say, to heck with Stopping Power. If you are a good player, you won't need it. Its just one more bullet.Most people ignore other Perk 2's. Overkill is an amazing perk. Some people like my friend (who has a k/d of over 3 on Cod4) says it lowers weapon damage. I really don't believe him at all. Stopping Power is just a perk for me. Its not life or death. Every single new player should get used to playing without Stopping Power to become great players..
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iKONIG
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Post by iKONIG on Mar 1, 2009 21:34:44 GMT -5
Well Said... I do use stopping power on guns that already has high damage eg: AK47, it does high damage with out it, but putting stopping power on it makes it 3 burst kill, your litterally turning it into a fully automatic M16. (disregarding gun kick)
I "LIKE" the skorpian, in my view its the best CQC weapon(except shottys), because it dishes out 50 damage at close range,I dont use stopping power with it because it already takes 5 hits at long range, and serously, how many times do you take sniper shots with that weapon anyway?
sorry, this post is bit off topic...
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 2, 2009 0:30:30 GMT -5
Stopping Power becomes necessary when everyone else is using it. If people didn't use Stopping Power, Juggernaut, and Double Tap, all which have very minor effects, you could easily use another perk. But with everyone using those perks it becomes a somewhat large disadvantage to not use one of those perks. It is only good because so many people use it. Also, on guns with low rates of fire, it can make a big difference. Also, the M40A3 and M16 are almost completely dependent upon Stopping Power.
Here's a quote from Den.
"The ratio of use between Power and Juggernaut is more than ten to one (twenty, thirty to one, maybe). Such a massive majority of players use Stopping Power as if it were an absolute necessity that it truly does become a necessity."
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Post by cobracordite on Mar 2, 2009 9:55:14 GMT -5
I'm coming from a WaW perspective, but imo it depends very much on your preference of game type and play style.
I play mostly S&D, and don't use SP that much. I find much better uses for Camouflage and Overkill, plus I like to mix things up a little with Sleight of Hand and Double Tap at times... and I never really find myself at a disadvantage tbh.
I suppose if you play a lot of TDM with a run'n'gun approach and getting in peoples faces, then SP will help you down the enemy quicker etc. But that's just one perspective on one play style.
I say why not experiment... I find it doesn't hurt... even helps break the monotony if and when it sets in.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 2, 2009 17:49:47 GMT -5
I almost always use Camo or Overkill, but in Core I definitely find myself at a significant disadvantage when I don't use Stopping Power. 30 health mode ftw.
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Vis
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Post by Vis on Mar 3, 2009 14:08:22 GMT -5
Do you know just how much of a difference one shot makes when only three or four are required to kill without SP?
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 3, 2009 17:17:34 GMT -5
Unless you hit every shot, it makes quite a bit of difference. Especially for weapons with low ROF or high recoil. Even in 30 health mode the PPSh and MP40 are terrible without Stopping Power.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Mar 4, 2009 9:50:51 GMT -5
Well, the problem is there are no really good other perks... Jug: your opponent probeply has SP so you cancel eachother out camo: you need a flash hider/supressor to make it really worth it (and then your damage goes down further on range) fireworks: It is not really that usefull, because you can't have that much explosives without dying (wich is for noobs) Flag jacket, often when you get hit by a nade you already took damage, and you will get killed anyway (and I don't get killed by explosives that often (use bombsquad )) shades/mask, well shades doesn't really help, and the mask is only used about 1 time in 5 games... sleight of hand is great for some weapons, but you'll burn more ammo and why would you want to reload that fast to kill him with the next bullet, if you could have had SP and killed him with your first clip (I often get kill streaks of 10 with my weapons so I am always short on ammo with leggin...) doubletap is about the same as stopping power IMO, only burns my ammo faster... And overkill I just really don't like, the reason is: I can take a ppsh next to my sniper... but I will need chest and higher shots with the sniper, and a pistol with SP is better then the PPSH in short range IMO.... and walk over a body or 2 and you get yourself a SMG (WITH STOPPING POWER!) so if you don't want SP on your sniper class, dont waste it on overkill but just take camo or something.... Next to that all... it is one bullet you need to hit, thats about 2/3 shots with my accurecy (?) wich is alot ammo before I reach level 40 (bando) and guns like the G43 only have 10 bullets so that is also a big drawback. Other than that there are a few guns that don't really benefit from SP: All machine guns with 35 damage on long range I think The mp40 (on xbox) Garand with flash hider The shotguns. So that isn't that many weapons, and if you want to use another 2nd perk, I would advise those weapons. Myself I have a few classes without SP: MP40 with fireworks (tank hunter) MP40 S with cammo Sniper with cammo On the FG42 sleight of hand is nice, but because I have alot of leg and almost always empty my clip on somebody with that gun before i get the "+10" But the big problem with that is: even with bando I only get around 8 kills with it... so my conclusion: every nice other perk gives you a an advantage that SP also gives you: SoH: with guns like the G43 you don't need a reload and get 2 kills and with bigger clips you get one or 2 more kills with the clip you have so I really think only camo and fireworks on anti tank is worth it...
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Post by ssog on Mar 6, 2009 16:48:33 GMT -5
Well, the problem is there are no really good other perks... camo: you need a flash hider/supressor to make it really worth it (and then your damage goes down further on range) No you don't. I use Camouflage on LMG classes all the time in both CoD4 and WaW. It's great for tactical loitering, especially in hardcore. Unless an enemy is very close to you, when you fire in a burst they just get a general idea of which direction you're in, and if you don't continue firing they quickly lose that inkling. Also, with Camo, there's no way for an enemy to determine any direction of movement- they know where you were 3 seconds ago, but they have no clue where you went since then (if you went anywhere at all). The key to using Camo without a silencer is to fire sparingly when the UAV is up and relocate after each time. Regardless, Camo is definitely best paired with a silencer. Yes, it makes your damage go down at range... but since you're stealthy, it's SIGNIFICANTLY easier to either sneak into close range undetected, or to set up camp and let the enemy come to you. Flak Jacket limits damage from explosives to 75, no matter what... which means you will never be killed by ANY explosive in softcore mode if you're at full health (exception- if a grenade detonates while you're trying to throw it back). That's huge, especially in objective gametypes such as HQ where grenade-spam is inevitable. It's an incredible comfort to know that no single grenade or betty will ever kill me unless I get myself shot first. Mask is used as often as you want it to be. Pair Gas Mask with 3x Taubans and a close-quarters gun. Toss a Taubun into a tight space and then run in right behind it. Everyone else is coughing and gasping for air while you're unhindered and free to tear them apart. Gas Mask is useless if you're waiting for someone else to throw Taubans, but very useful when you take matters into your own hands (again, very effective in objective gametypes). Shades is useless, though. SoH is best on weapons that are already a 1-shot kill, anyway. Sniper rifles, Shotguns, and any weapon in hardcore mode benefit greatly. Especially shotguns. Doubletap is worse in softcore, but better in hardcore. If every bullet is a 1-shot kill (and on a lot of weapons, they are), then putting more bullets in the air can only be a good thing.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 9, 2009 3:30:56 GMT -5
Shades is not as useless as you might think. Putting three flares into a tight space is like staring into the sun with a telescope while pouring hot bacon grease into your ocular cavities.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Mar 9, 2009 7:23:45 GMT -5
Yeah that's truth, the problem is, even with shades you can't see anything then.... so you don't have an advantage after all... It doesn't cancel the flares enough to make it usefull IMO
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Post by ssog on Mar 9, 2009 20:01:47 GMT -5
Shades is not as useless as you might think. Putting three flares into a tight space is like staring into the sun with a telescope while pouring hot bacon grease into your ocular cavities. That requires devoting TWO perks (3x special + shades) in order to benefit from an effect that you can use only once per life. An effect that is only situationally useful (tight spaces only), and which is still completely outclassed by other effects that only require one perk (2x betties, gas mask + tabun).
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 11, 2009 16:45:48 GMT -5
I agree that the perk is far inferior to others, but it is not useless, and you can't truly gauge its effectiveness against other perks unless you happen to know everybody's playstyles. Also, you do not need to devote Perk 1 to it if your team coordinates flare usage. AND, you used my exact arguments for Shades in you arguments for Gas Mask, AND you specifically cited the use of 3 x Tabun.
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Post by ssog on Mar 11, 2009 22:40:43 GMT -5
I agree that the perk is far inferior to others, but it is not useless, and you can't truly gauge its effectiveness against other perks unless you happen to know everybody's playstyles. Also, you do not need to devote Perk 1 to it if your team coordinates flare usage. AND, you used my exact arguments for Shades in you arguments for Gas Mask, AND you specifically cited the use of 3 x Tabun. Your argument for Shades involves throwing 3x Flares once per life. My argument for Tabuns involves throwing 1x Tabuns three times per life. That's the inherent difference- Tabunx3 + Gas Mask is three times as useful as Flaresx3 + Shades simply because you can do it three times as often. All it takes is one Tabun. Or, if you'd rather, you can get a different perk 1 and not have your perk 2 be totally wasted (because that 1 Tabun is enough for Gas Mask to be useful). I'd also argue that a single Tabun is more effective than three flares. I also think that coordinated Tabun usage would be much more effective than coordinated Flare usage. Flares don't really obscure peripheral vision, so they're mostly good for obscuring a very narrow view right in the center of the flare... and Shades doesn't cut down on the glare enough to let you see through that window anyway. A team with 18 Tabuns and everyone rocking Gas Mask would be a *MAJOR* nuisance, though.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 17, 2009 18:51:20 GMT -5
Flares can be used as a "lightscreen." Tabuns are the only special grenade that create absolutely no visual cover. Enemies must be within their tiny radius to be affected.
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Post by ssog on Mar 18, 2009 15:57:43 GMT -5
Flares can be used as a "lightscreen." Tabuns are the only special grenade that create absolutely no visual cover. Enemies must be within their tiny radius to be affected. I've been playing a lot more with both Shades and Gas Mask this past week, and I'm willing to admit the error of my ways. No, I'm not saying that Shades is anything other than useless. I'm just now adding "Gas Mask" to that list of useless perks. First off, shades. Yes, flares can create visual cover. The visual cover they do create extends over the length of the brightly burning center of the flare. It's far smaller than the cover provided by a smoke grenade, and lasts less time than a smoke grenade, which makes Flares 100% inferior to Smokes in all aspects of providing cover except for 1- you can have 3 flares, but you can only have 1 smoke. Still, the fact that that requires the use of a perk and the fact that, per-grenade, the cover is much less leads me to believe that Flares are of very limited use in terms of providing cover. They're also of little use in terms of disabling enemies. They're essentially just of little use. The problem isn't Flares, though... the problem is Shades. Its effect is MINISCULE. The hot center of the flare is just as impossible to see through whether you have shades or not. The only difference shades offers is that the area around the center loses that reddish tint. Which is useless if you're far away from the flare, since the tint doesn't obstruct vision any... and useless if you're near the flare, since the center will still dominate your vision (and you still can't see through it). About the only time Shades will come in handy is if a flare lands right on top of, but slightly behind you- in that case, normally your vision would be obscured by heavy reddish tint, but Shades would prevent it. It's a situation that is absurdly rare in normal gameplay, and pretty much impossible to replicate on your own using your own flares (you'd have to throw a flare, turn around, and then back up into it). And even if you can replicate it, it's not like it really offers any great tactical advantage. Add to this the opportunity cost of Shades (SP, DT, Jugg, SoH, Flak Jacket, etc) and you have a failure of a perk. We're talking "Eavesdropping" levels of suckitude here. Now, Gas Mask. I was originally under the impression that when you threw a Tabun, it would continue putting out its gas cloud for several seconds (a length of time commensurate to the amount of time they incapacitate you for). After playing around without Gas Mask, I realize that, while they disable you for several seconds if you breathe the gas, they only release the gas for a very, very short time after detonation. So short that, if I was throwing at a distant target, I could sprint over and by the time I arrived at the site, they were no longer incapacitating people (although the people originally hit were still incapacitated). Basically, the perk "Gas Mask" is completely replaced by waiting for half a second before sprinting into wherever you just threw your Tabun. Also, Tabuns have far less potential than I once thought when it comes to denying certain areas to enemies (i.e. throwing a Tabun at a doorway and have anyone who comes close for 2-3 seconds start coughing and immediately back up). Man, the special grenades (and the associated perks) were really nerfed compared to the CoD4 days. Which is funny, because I *never* heard anyone say that special grenades were overpowered in CoD4. It's like the inexplicable nerfing of the shotguns.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Mar 19, 2009 6:07:10 GMT -5
Well, its more like there just were no stun grenades in WO II But I totaly agree with your post (although, tabun lasts longer then I thought sometimes... that sucks when I get fumed by it myself)
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 23, 2009 14:59:34 GMT -5
ssog I actually completely agreed with you the entire time, I was just playing devil's advocate for reasons that currently escape me.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 10, 2009 5:18:55 GMT -5
Honestly I'm not finding SP all that overrated. Oh I don't use it on every class, for sure, but it does come in rather handy, even for the high damage weapons, as it increases the size of the 1 hit kill area by expanding it to more regions of the body. It also tends to be useful against juggernauts.
I had initially thought DT would be much more useful on the MP40 due to it killing in 2 shots even without SP (on consoles). Unfortunately it makes the gun harder for me to aim since I was used to the recoil before DT.
I decided to do some analysis in my spreadsheet to compare the various damage mods and perks including minimum kill time.
Certainly the figures DO ignore factors that would cause you to miss a shot. I was not attempting to create a simulation, merely a mathematical analysis. I'm also rather anal. So I have all the weapons and attachments that change the stats in the table and built up colums to work out the minimum number of shots to kill for each area of the body and with each damage mod (SP, Nor, & Jug) and for both min and max damage. (Though not all the levels in between.)
For one thing you can definitely see how they attempted to balance DT and SP to have the same kill time, sometimes exactly the same, or at least some average. But things kinda break down.
For kill times I had to ad DT vs Nor and Jug since you cannot have DT and SP.
Then for kicks I did consolidated columns averaging the kill time across all 5 body groups. This too is merely an analysis, not a simulation. Obviously it's harder to get headshots than chest or limbs and the actual ratios will depend greatly on the skill level of the player and will also vary depending upon the weapon used even for the same player. For simplicity I averaged across all five evenly and I have them split out if I want to see the detail.
I made one last meta group that consolidated the five different average best killtimes, (SP, Nor, Jug, DT, DT/J) into just three columns for if you use DT, SP, or neither. (In other words SP = SP + Nor / 2 while DT = DT + DT/J / 2.) Since you could be facing someone with or without Juggernaut.
Again... Statistically fewer people use Juggernaut and I did not weight the outcome realistically because I have the detail data if I want a more nuanced look and I'm not making a CoD simulator... it wouldn't be accurate if I tried.
Anyway the point is... low and behold... DT is NOT equal to SP by any stretch of the imagination, and this is even when I'm ignoring recoil, more frequent reloads, and ammunition use. Frankly there are very few cases where DT is a clear winner and even in those cases SP still tends to win out somehow. Let me go back to the MP40 for example. DT kills slightly faster than SP on every single part of the body except for headshots. The problem is a headshot with the MP40 and SP is a 1 shot kill so the kill time is 0. That 0 mathmatically destroys DT in the average. Take on top of that the fact that the kill times at min damage are faster with SP than with DT and you basically only have one situation where DT is better... if you're close and you always spray with basically never hitting the head, and even then you're only dropping your kill time from 0.11 seconds to 0.08 a mere 0.03 seconds. That may still suit you since it can be difficult to get headshots if your'e spraying, but it's good to know. Personally I get enough headshots (often completely on accident) that I think my money is on SP.
The MP40 happens to be the only weapon in the game with a faster kill time in DT v Nor than SP v Nor at max damage. Most weapons even kill Juggernauts faster at max damage. The only exceptions to that are the M1 Garand and all the Machine Guns except for the MG42 and FG42 which kill Juggernauts exactly as fast either way.
At this point I should note that I'm not 100% I have the facts strait on the RPM caps of all the weapons. I believe that all the semi auto weapons that have a cap of 1200 are hard capped at that rate and do not benefit from DT. This analysis also assumes you have a bionic finger so technically it is best to compare those weapons to each other rather than others, ect. Which is fine with me.
I know the M1 Garand is semi auto, but it has a lower cap on RPM and I read somewhere (perhaps erroniously) that DT does help it.
I'll leave the shotguns out because this analysis really doesn't work very well with them. (For max damage I assumed all 8 pellets hit for each region of the body for max damage and 2 pellets for min damage just to keep the numbers from being too ridiculous, but the whole thing really breaks down for shotguns. Shotguns need their own multihit kind of analysis which just has too many variables to make it simple. I would have to work out every possible combination of 8 pellets and 5 body regions and try to assign some kind of probability or something. Too much work. Just from this limited analysis, however, DT may be viable for shotguns, particularly the trench gun, but even hitting with 2 pellets evenly across all body regions it's only better in one case at min damage and not against juggernauts, so mebbe not.
On min damage (long range) things get more interesting and DT starts to win for a few weapons, particularly the M1 Garand unscoped, the BAR and the DP-28.
When you consider the way it'll affect recoil I'm not too sure it's such a good idea with the machine guns unless you can get the second shot off before the kick puts you too off target. If so then you could burst fire pretty good, or fire into a crowd or just go for suppression, but then if you're suppressing a slower rate of fire might be better.
For the M1 Garand it seems like that might be useful for using the flash suppressor if you can actually capitalize on it with said bionic finger. Though I guess you'd have to train yourself to pull the trigger just enough faster but not too much that it doesn't fire, since it's semi auto. On the other hand if you usually pull it too fast with the Garand due to being used to the 1200 cap instead of 444 then it might actually help you... if DT actually works on the Garand.
In the end you add in recoil and ammo use and DT really just becomes a niche perk of limited usefulness. Even the good old STG 44 does better with SP on average.
So I guess so much for balanced perks.
Anyway, sorry to bore you all with math. ;p Imma dork.
BTW I also looked at the viewkicks and interestingly the PPSh-41 is the only weapon in the game who's viewkick is perfectly centered, every other weapon will kick on average a little up a little right or both. And all of the other SMG's kick on average a few degrees more to the right than left. Of course the centerspeed on many weapons compensates, but I'm unable to analyze that mathmatically without a better understanding of how centerspeed does that and whether or not there are other variables.
If I could work out exactly how fast a weapon returns to center in say degrees per second, then I could get a pretty good idea how close you can get back to center before the next shot since we have very good RPM data.
Oh one more thing, when looking at the lower levels of the analysis SP on scoped rifles only helps on belly shots, all other body areas including limbs take the same number of shots with or without it. Mathematically that difference between 2 shots and 1 is more than enough to compensate. In practice if you get relatively few belly shots then you might prefer DT or even something else lime camo or SoH or whatever floats your boat. I should note that this is also ignoring penetration. SP will help you when shooting through things, so you might consider that.
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Jun 1, 2009 12:39:27 GMT -5
I agree that SP overshadowns the other perks, its 40% more damage that also means ammo lasts longer and less reloads are needed.
The more players on the server, the better camouflage or uav jammer become because of the higher rate of enemy radar and more people who can shoot you.
I do have to say that the flak jacked sounds like something I will try.
And the flares and shades as well as the associated persk are a joke in WAW (and how much I hate the person who thought they need to be challenges too). If they made flares to have a shorter flashbang effect when coming to close and not have it with shades, then we could talk about it.
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Post by ww2axis on Jul 7, 2009 23:21:05 GMT -5
I had to say this lol, you made a mistake about the MP40, with SP, it ISNT a 1-shot kill to the head, it does 98 damage close range to the head, so VERY close, but not quite ;D
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mdnl
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Post by mdnl on Jul 8, 2009 10:50:42 GMT -5
It might just be 1 shot less to someone else with SP but it becomes 2 against someoen with Jugg on, and I guess again that is ok so long as the person is not firing back at you, but let's be honest 70% of the time someone is shooting at you while you're shooting at them.
And as a sniper, I want to know my 1 shot is going to kill the guy before he can turn and react so stopping power is a must.
If it really bothers you that much, play HC where SP and Jugg become useless and you'd be better served wth slieght of hand, camo and overkill etc
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i8
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Post by i8 on Jul 10, 2009 15:07:05 GMT -5
i hate how waw weakened jug it needs explosive protection to be on par with sp and uav jammer
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Tapap
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Post by Tapap on Jul 10, 2009 15:27:08 GMT -5
I had to say this lol, you made a mistake about the MP40, with SP, it ISNT a 1-shot kill to the head, it does 98 damage close range to the head, so VERY close, but not quite ;D wrong. it deals 50dmg. it has a head shot multiplier of 1.5. then stopping power adds 40% bullet damage ex: 50(base dmg) X 1.5(head shot) = 75 X 1.4(Stopping power) = 105 I have tested this and so have several others and it is 1 hit to the head. test it your self if you dont believe
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Post by ssog on Jul 11, 2009 0:12:32 GMT -5
i hate how waw weakened jug it needs explosive protection to be on par with sp and uav jammer Maybe, but on the other hand, I'm very happy that WaW gave us a super beefed up explosive protection as its own perk. If Juggernaut included explosive protection like in CoD4 *AND* also carried Flak Jacket's "no single explosive can ever kill you" damage cap, then Jugg would be overpowered. If it didn't carry the damage cap, then it wouldn't be overpowered... but I'd have no way to get that damage cap for my HQ classes, and then I'd be a very sad panda.
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j1000
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Post by j1000 on Jul 13, 2009 18:59:04 GMT -5
What do you guys think? I say, to heck with Stopping Power. If you are a good player, you won't need it. Its just one more bullet.A gun might take 3 bullets to kill someone. If you remove the necessity for one of those bullets, that's a 50% damage improvement. You can kill things 50% faster. If you are face to face with someone who is shooting back, that difference is critical. You can make a similar argument for double tap or juggernaut. There are times when SP is less important, say, with a Skorpion which is already killing in two shots at close range. But ditching it altogether doesn't make sense.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 14, 2009 4:36:59 GMT -5
also when firing with a STG for example, or m16 on a running target, it is nice to need one bullet less because there is a bigger change you can kill him before he runs out of sight.
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j1000
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Post by j1000 on Jul 14, 2009 12:58:04 GMT -5
also when firing with a STG for example, or m16 on a running target, it is nice to need one bullet less because there is a bigger change you can kill him before he runs out of sight. Right. A lot of times you only land one bullet on the guy before he ducks around a corner. If that person is injured, then SP could mean the difference between a kill or no kill.
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toysrme
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Post by toysrme on Oct 2, 2009 2:09:46 GMT -5
just feel like bumping old posts tonight. 3x gas + mask is a 1v1, 2v2 type thing for good players that will gas spawns (do the same thing in COD4 with flash grenades on shipment) If you're NOT looking at being the top killer (others to do that) and you wnat to be the pusher / capper. 3x flare + shades is THE most useful setup for dom & to some extint war. two flares on the object to cap will give you amazing vsual cover, before they die down time the third one to continue the cover. you are likely to kill anyone running in that does not grenade you. flares > smoke grenades. smoke in COD4 is CRAZY SHIT! you almost can't see through it, it lasts along time, and it fills a huge area. smoke in W@W breaks the laws of physics. it sucks & blows at the same time. the range is reduced and you can see through it MUCH more clearly. it doesn't obscure very much (and wont last a solo cap) where 3x flares WILL last a solo cap of both dom and HQ also takes less time for a flare to go bright than smoke to fill a room. i know i dont play much W@W anymore, but i do play with alot of top 5,000 dom players and i can hold my own (several in top 1,000 on my list) if you have TWO average+ players (or players that dont care if they die alot) 3x flares and shades will just about end a DOM game on any map. youd think flares would spell instant grenade spam, but its not quite as bad as you would think! flare > smoke gas great at high level 1v1 flare > smoke, both alright at 1v1 if you're smarter than your opp.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 2, 2009 16:07:06 GMT -5
sorry, but when I see somebody take a objective and have flares on it... there is only one solution. and that is a nade. If your opps are not smart enough for that... well that does not prove your point... I would go with 3x flare and flag jacket every time over shades...
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