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Post by infininja on Dec 17, 2010 1:58:26 GMT -5
Having not played the game... a couple of thoughts:
Reducing the shotgun's pellets to 8 seems like it will be hard to use. 7/8 pellets need to land to get a OHK. It's also a 3 shot kill from far away with all pellets landing. It will be very different to use, I think.
The M1911 is the same. The TT33 is a clone of the M9, which makes sense.
Are the resupply times on the M79 and RPG-7 correct? They're opposite of what they are in core BC2.
The spread/spray/recoil is always hard for me to judge without using a gun, but I'm wondering what advantage the RPK has over the XM22. It has a shorter reload time but 100 less bullets. Maybe its slower rate of fire makes it more accurate, I'm not sure.
On a similar note, I'm not seeing why the M14 should be used over the AK47. I'm also curious to know why its spray is listed as "1.0~".
Oh yeah, the M40 has even more OHK range than the current M95. Of course I won't be able to put an ACOG on it...
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Den
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Post by Den on Dec 17, 2010 2:49:58 GMT -5
In Nam, the Spread Increase and Recovery is all over the place for a few guns (assault rifles namely) depending on if you're moving or standing still.
12 Shot.
The rockets are 4.5, grenades 10.5.
More time to recover, greater accuracy advantage. LMGs recovering 5 spread per second: The Stoner's 0.075 Firetime allows 0.375 of that 0.44 to recover. 0.065 spread on the next shot. The RPK's 0.09230769... Time allows 0.461538... of the 0.52 to recover. 0.0585 spread on the next shot. A tighter grouping with long bursts. The RPK may be slower, but it reloads fast and fires more accurately.
M14 has 5.0 recovery. 0.428 spread recovered by the next shot. The AK47 has a peculiar 3.6 recovery only when zoomed and standing still. All else is 3.0. 0.288 spread recovered by the next shot. The M14 has a significant accuracy advantage with automatic fire.
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Post by infininja on Dec 17, 2010 3:41:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the quick reply. 12 shots will definitely make the shotgun usable.
I'm not sure why the M14 would be any better than the AK47 up close. As far as I can tell they both take the same amount of bullets and the AK has the advantage in spread and fire rate. It's not a huge advantage though.
I wonder how many tweaks DICE will do to Vietnam.
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Post by leki on Dec 17, 2010 10:48:21 GMT -5
thanks for the chart den....your my interweb hero So what does everyone think are the best guns for each class. would help to see what iron sights are like but so far just off stats i think Assault: AK47? medic: M60 or XM22 engi: PPSh or UZi sniper: any pistol: M1911
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Post by shalashaska on Dec 17, 2010 19:42:40 GMT -5
The M95 is a One Hit Kill up to 25 meters with Magnum Ammo.
The M40 is a One Hit Kill up to 45 meters with Magnum Ammo, almost TWICE the OHK range of the 50 cal.
So far infact, that it is still dealing a OHK after the SMG's have already reached there minimum damage values.
I think this gun is going to be even more notorious in Vietnam than it is in Call of Duty 4.
As far as the other weapons are concerned, the AK47 appears to be the best of the assault rifles, here is how it stands, with magnum ammo. The first number is bullets to kill up close, second number is bullets to kill at maximum range.
M16A1 = 5 - 7 at 800rpm with a 30 clip
AK47 = 4 - 5 at 750rpm with a 30 clip (much more powerfull than the M16 with only a marginaly slower rate of fire)
M14 = 4 - 5 at 700rpm with a 20 clip (no real reason to use this compared to the AK47)
M1 Garand = 3 - 3 at 280rpm - 8 clip (a good weapon for semi auto fans)
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As far as the engys options, I believe the PPSH is the best for those of us that currently like the AKS-74U, it has a good balance of damage, with a low rate of fire making the 25 clip last longer than it looks, and very low recoil.
The UZI is not to be ignored however, as with magnum it has the same 6 maximum shots to kill as the M1A1 and PPSH do with magnum, but with alot higher rate of fire. (but alot more recoil)
The Mac 10 has the 40 clip, but takes 2 more round at long range to kill than the other 3 SMG's, making it much less of a good allrounder.
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For medic, I think the XM22 is the overall winner, only 1 shot extra is needed at all ranges than the M60, and it fires alot lot faster with a huge 200 clip and low recoil.
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Post by infininja on Dec 17, 2010 20:08:08 GMT -5
The M14 fires at 700 RPM according to Den's stats. Though I agree with the AK47 being the clear winner.
I agree with most of what you say, though I almost never use magnum ammo on engineer and medic and alternate SPEC 2 on assault.
I like the way the M60 fires in the core game and if it's the same in Vietnam I'll probably stick with it even if the XM22 is superior. Ah, just realized the Stoner is a slightly higher damage clone of the SAW, which means I'll enjoy using it too, as long as the iron sights are serviceable.
Oh, I forgot to ask. Do the core game's sniper rifles have a ZMOV number? They're not listed in the chart (even for the VSS) but the Vietnam ones all have 2.0.
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Post by shalashaska on Dec 17, 2010 20:26:33 GMT -5
My mistake, 700 is correct.
As far as using magnum, I used to use it on just Assault and Medic, but as the gustav was gradualy nerfed, it got to a point where I traded it for the RPG instead, and hence swapped out extra explosive damage for magnum ammo as the RPG already posseses the same direct vehicle damage as an extra explosive equiped gustav.
As vietnam just has the RPG, with the same stats as the standard RPG, I think I will continue to use magnum ammo with my SMG.
As for recon, I use the GOL, and hence dont need magnum as it makes literaly no difference, only barely increases the small one hit kill range (at which I would draw my pistol anyway) and makes no difference to sniping at range, 2 hits to the body, 1 to the head as normal.
However for the new M40, magnum looks like an excellent choice, doubling the OHK range, and hence, rather like stopping power in CoD4, it now seems to hold a monopoly on all 4 of my class loadouts.
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Post by infininja on Dec 19, 2010 4:24:22 GMT -5
Hmmm, does magnum ammo work on the flamethrower?
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Post by shalashaska on Dec 19, 2010 9:11:37 GMT -5
I would assume so, but that is a good question. It may not be considered bullet ammo and could possibly even be effected by extra explosive damage instead. Ether way I'm not sure 1.25x damage would effect it that much, they did a good job of balancing it, the effective range is just right to make it useful and effective, but not so much that it would replace the primary weapons as a more powerful allround option.
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Post by Aphoristic on Dec 19, 2010 19:58:30 GMT -5
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Post by undoubledzim on Dec 19, 2010 20:59:19 GMT -5
Seems like the MOH team worked on this instead of the ones who did the core game if the game plays like the core game im very uncertain on the balance of things although I am a huge AK fan so maybe its not all bad My ak = )
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Post by shalashaska on Dec 19, 2010 21:37:16 GMT -5
Seems like the MOH team worked on this instead of the ones who did the core game if the game plays like the core game im very uncertain on the balance of things You have nothing to worry about. The balance in Vietnam I have to say is even better than in the core game. The stats dont tell the whole story. The M14 for example looks like its worthless next to the AK47, but from extensive weapon testing it most certainly isnt. Its slower rate of fire and slightly different recoil, aswell as lesser muzzle flash, make it an excellent choice for those who prefer more controlled burst fire. The M16, although weaker in damage at range than the AK47, has less recoil, much less muzzle flash and clearer ironsights, making it easier to stay on targets at range to even out the odds in needing a couple more rounds to kill. The M1 Garand is still harder to use, as it is in the core game, but its realy ment to be, and it is an even better choice now. The 3 smgs are even better balanced, I found the choice between the Uzi and PPSh very difficult to make, and the MAC10 is quite the hip fire monster in close quarters with its large mag and high rate of fire. The lmgs once again are well balanced, statistics alone would suggest the XM22 with its high rate of fire and huge mag would dominate the pack, but I find myself favoring the M60 for its more controlled firing and its better feel for how many rounds have hit their mark. The RPK falls between the other 2, being another competative choice for those who prefer it. The 2 pistols are essentialy the M1911 and a clone of the M9, being as well balanced as those 2 pistols were in the core game, which is quite well. The flamethower and other all kit weapons are very well balanced, so as to all be useful but not superseed the class specific weapons as being a better all situation option. Only 1 weapon stands out at the moment as being imminent for a nerf in the next patch, and thats the M40 sniper rifle, its massive 45 meter one hit kill range with magnum ammo is made even more prominent by Vietnams smaller more infantry focused maps. I absalutely love this weapon, but it realy is massively powerful at medium range when you learn how to 'quick-scope' with it.
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Post by undoubledzim on Dec 20, 2010 15:32:57 GMT -5
good stuff ^ thanks for the information
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Post by klokateer on Dec 21, 2010 17:54:53 GMT -5
In my efforts to digest the weapon chart I noticed that the RPG and M79 have a 100 dmg output up to 6 and 5m.
This makes both of the weapons more deadly than a Carl Gustav which is 100 dmg out to 1.7m.
Are these numbers correct?
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Post by onikage on Dec 21, 2010 19:53:15 GMT -5
Only 1 weapon stands out at the moment as being imminent for a nerf in the next patch, and thats the M40 sniper rifle, its massive 45 meter one hit kill range with magnum ammo is made even more prominent by Vietnams smaller more infantry focused maps. I absalutely love this weapon, but it realy is massively powerful at medium range when you learn how to 'quick-scope' with it. What's weird is that it's so obvious. We all know it's going to be nerfed. I knew after one look at the stats, I was twice as certain after playing with it for 10 minutes. How do the people that make the gosh darn golly gee whiz game overlook this? Or do they do this deliberately? And if so, why? Strange. In my efforts to digest the weapon chart I noticed that the RPG and M79 have a 100 dmg output up to 6 and 5m. This makes both of the weapons more deadly than a Carl Gustav which is 100 dmg out to 1.7m. I hope that's wrong.
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Post by shalashaska on Dec 22, 2010 1:44:10 GMT -5
What's weird is that it's so obvious. We all know it's going to be nerfed. I knew after one look at the stats, I was twice as certain after playing with it for 10 minutes. How do the people that make the gosh darn golly gee whiz game overlook this? Or do they do this deliberately? And if so, why? The thing is, without magnum, its not all that more powerful than the M95, but with it, well, heres the difference. Blue line is the One Hit Kill range without magnum, not that much more than the M95. The Green line is with magnum, and as you can see the One Hit Kill range shoots upto almost twice the distance. Its definetely wrong, the RPG performs the same as the core game one, 6 meter is its maximum damage radius, its only a One Hit Kill upto 1.5m from the center of the impact. The thumper I believe is also a direct clone of the M203, 5 meters being the maximum damage radius, 1.3m being lethal.
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Post by onikage on Dec 22, 2010 9:08:43 GMT -5
They took an interesting approach. Assuming (probably correctly) that most of their players can't aim with irons, they cranked the lethality on the weapons. The idea with the M40 must have been that it needed a boost to keep up with the other guns. As a side effect, guns that have not been enhanced have effectively been nerfed. Shotguns and pistols, notably, as well as the semi-auto snipers.
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Post by shalashaska on Dec 22, 2010 16:43:13 GMT -5
Only that the difference between a 4-6 shot kill assault rifle (vietnam) and a 5-7 shot kill assault rifle (core game), is not nearly as profound as a sniper becoming essentialy a 1 hit kill to any part of the body.
Plus the buff to the vietnam weapons was presumably done because of their lack of scopes, something the M40 isnt effected by. The M40 scope is, if anything, even better than the core game sniper rifles because of its extremely low recoil and sway so miniscule it might aswell not have it (like the GOL).
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Post by onikage on Dec 22, 2010 19:02:12 GMT -5
Right, right. It's not exactly a 1 hit kill at ANY range though, and there are optics limitations on the M40. If, for example, you could fit it with the 4x from the core game, there would be no reason to ever use anything else. The default scope is quite usable for the gun's most effective range, but definitely not optimal.
And the enhanced damage is the least of the boost that the automatic weapons got. I haven't had a chance to really scrutinize Den's numbers, but the lack of recoil and hip-fire accuracy on these weapons is nuts. Introduce any one of them to core multiplayer and it would be totally game-breaking.
I guess what I'm saying is that while initially I thought to myself "Jesus, the M40 is ridiculous", my thinking is now more like "Jesus, half the guns in Vietnam are ridiculous".
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bladerock
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Post by bladerock on Dec 22, 2010 23:17:10 GMT -5
Den's numbers say the recoil on 'nam's guns are the same as the recoil in many of the comparable guns in the regular game. So, there is not 'less recoil' overall. Same goes for spray and spread.
Placebos are a female dog, ain't they?
The M40's one hit kill range is ridiculous. I wouldn't mind seeing it gone. It was indeed the first thing i noticed when i was looking at the stats table.
What bothers me is that it deals 70 minimum damage. what was the reason they got rid of that on the regular game's bolt actions? i can't remember, but it seems like they are going back to step one here.
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Post by infininja on Dec 23, 2010 6:59:56 GMT -5
Excuse me if my calculations are wrong, but, unless that target has body armor, it only takes 1 stray bullet from any weapon at any range except the MAC-10 and the 870 to down someone hit by a magnum M40. That brings me back to the days where I'd use the M95 and finish everyone off with my sidearm.
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Post by onikage on Dec 23, 2010 12:41:35 GMT -5
Den's numbers say the recoil on 'nam's guns are the same as the recoil in many of the comparable guns in the regular game. So, there is not 'less recoil' overall. Same goes for spray and spread. Placebos are a female dog, ain't they? Placebo doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. There is a variable in Vietnam that wasn't in vanilla. Or Den is just wrong. Or the XBox build of the game is radically different. By the stats, the PPSh is just a UMP that does amazing damage. I assure you, that is not the full story. All you have to do is use both guns. Fire on full auto and watch where your bullets go. They aren't the same.
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novem
True Bro
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Post by novem on Dec 23, 2010 12:57:35 GMT -5
PPSh is ump, mac10 is pp2000, and uzi is, well, uzi. Imo worst is uzi- iron sights are bad, hard to follow target when shooting.
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Post by fazzmania on Dec 23, 2010 22:26:16 GMT -5
Yeah the uzi has so much muzzle flash it's rediculous
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bladerock
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Post by bladerock on Dec 25, 2010 15:24:11 GMT -5
(1)Placebo doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. (2)There is a variable in Vietnam that wasn't in vanilla. (3) Or Den is just wrong. (2)Or the XBox build of the game is radically different. By the stats, the PPSh is just a UMP that does amazing damage. (3)I assure you, that is not the full story. All you have to do is use both guns. Fire on full auto and watch where your bullets go. They aren't the same. (1)Placebo is a fake medicine used to make a patient think he's being treated. In modern culture, it is used to refer to any case where someone is believing something to cause an effect different from the real effect it is having. I.E. Take some inert pills, that have no effect, and feel like your headache is gone. This, IMO, is analogous to: Take a gun that deals 25 damage per shot, take it for a spin in the game and report that it is killing in 2 shots when the targets have 100 health. In other words, i'm just comparing the act of reporting false information (which you honestly believe to be right) to a placebo. (2)That's possible, if unlikely. I would be more inclined to believe it if there was some precedent outside of the extra damage on consoles and PC being ahead in patches. (3)Now, saying that the code's wrong and somehow has no control over what actually happens sounds awfully familiar... Like that time they were talking about the BO's reflex sights having different spread and zoom to the red dot sight...
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Post by rudybojangles on Dec 28, 2010 14:58:31 GMT -5
spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AlTMrHbh89wedFd6REg3cFdlek1JdDJ3eWNzWXRUWWc&hl=enScroll down to the bottom. No Flamethrower yet. TTK Chart is up, it seems to me like people know what they are talking about in terms of the AK being a bit overpowered. Do the LMGs have sighted spread like in MOH (bullets don't go straight down sight)? The XM22 seems like it when going fully auto, standing, but I haven't tested it on a flat surface. Sorry if I don't understand the recoil statistics on the main page.
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Post by infininja on Dec 28, 2010 19:02:20 GMT -5
Bullets don't go straight down the sights when going full auto on every gun, I believe.
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Post by rudybojangles on Dec 28, 2010 21:15:12 GMT -5
Given that, I find it weird that the Uzi's time to kill at max range is the second best out of all of the guns using Magnum Ammo (behind AK) when it has the least (as far as I can tell) sighted spread. For me, it makes for some laser-like accuracy. I guess the view-recoil is fairly persistent to counter-balance it, but I am still not sure it's totally balanced. It totally outclasses the other SMGs when using Magnum Ammo, making it a 6 shot kill at any range at 900 RPM. Seriously, try sighted firing while strafing at a target at medium range. It is easiest to spot them first then do this, so it takes a little practice and thumb aerobics, but it's a fairly consistent strategy. I say the Mac10 needs a boost, leave the other 2, nerf the Uzi to be a 7 shot kill at range with MagAm, but who am I to say that? Don't get me started on the AK. Edit: If I went there anyway: AK47 should be 6 close 6 far (no magam) and 5 close 6 far (mag am) In [close-far, magclose-magfar (whether it's a nerf/boost)] format, bullets to kill AK47: 6-6, 5-6 (nerf) M14: Fine M16: 6-7, 5-7 (boost) M1A1, Fine PPSh, Fine MAC10: 7-9, 6-8 (boost) Uzi: 8-8, 6-7 (nerf) M60, fine XM22: 7-8, 5-7 (nerf) RPK: 6-7, 5-6 (boost)
If the weapons were theoretically like this, then some would be better close, others far, there would be distinct advantages to having SMGs close, or Assault Rifles and LMGs at midrange, and there wouldn't be any god-guns from what I can tell. In the mean time, I am going to whore the hell out of the AK and Uzi. Thank you and goodnight, it's like the 5th edit of this post. I have ADD
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Post by shalashaska on Dec 28, 2010 22:39:52 GMT -5
In the mean time, I am going to whore the hell out of the AK and Uzi. Although the stats would suggest the Uzi is by far the best smg, in reality it comes second behind the PPSh, which has less recoil, less muzzle flash, slower rate of fire and better sights, making it a near perfect laser. Not to mention it can kill in just a hair over 3 bullets up close with magnum, and its clip lasts longer in a firefight.
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Post by rudybojangles on Dec 29, 2010 0:34:02 GMT -5
I maintain that the Uzi is competitive up close and much more versatile at range, though I do see your point about recoil.
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