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Post by shalashaska on Feb 9, 2011 6:03:58 GMT -5
I am currently stuck between the following 2 loadouts, totaly unable to make my mind up as to which one I should use. They are as follows:
AKS-74U + RPG-7 Rocket Ammo x2 Magnum Ammo
This gives me an SMG with good sights that kills in 5-8 shots, and a rocket that does 360 damage with a slow flight speed.
Second loadout is as follows:
UMP + Carl Gustav Rocket Ammo x2 Extra Explosive Damage
This gives me an SMG with not quite as good iron sights, that kills in the same 5-8 shots, and a rocket that does 350 damage with a faster flight speed.
Benefits of the first loudout is that I greatly prefer the ironsights of the AKS-74U over the UMP, meaning that I dont have to consider using a red dot and hence can safely keep my 2x rocket ammo, which comes in very handy.
Benefits of the second loudout is that because the UMP matches the damage of the AKS without magnum, I can instead use explosive damage, giving me a rocket just as good against tanks, but much better against infantry and fast moving targets.
Basicaly I feel the second kit doesnt have as reliable a main weapon (for me personaly), however the kit itself is more allround suitable due to the extra explosive gustav being more capable than the standard RPG.
Opinions?
You are my bro, bro.
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novem
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Post by novem on Feb 9, 2011 7:04:32 GMT -5
My opinions: -rpg is overall the worst rl, both other choices are better -aksu is one of the worst smgs without magnum, with magnum it's ok -ump has worst iron sights from all smgs, but besides that its great; useful with red dot in attack (when enemy doesnt have a lot tanks, so you dont have to take extra rockets); when defending i wouldnt use it- extra explosive is a must -smg should have little crosshair and high rof for good cqc (xm8 and pp2k my choices here), theres not always time to ads during the battle, scar is good when sighted, but has the biggest crosshair from all smgs, so i dont recommend it, or 9a91 with little mag and ammo (unless you can handle it) - use mines in first life, then after death change for CG for anti personnel, At4 against tanks/helis - extra explosives are crucial (in defence), so here need for smg with good irons (9a91, xm8, aksu, scar) because of no red dot; if you use scope you can run out of rockets pretty quick, and your role is mainly against vehicles, so no sense here at all - extra explosion damage is useful, but not crucial (imho), so you can use magnum, armor or weapon handling perk, which is awesome with smgs with worse iron sights (uzi, pp2k, ump); however having at4 and better explosives means, that one shot from rear/side will take 75% of tanks health (without that perk only 60%), so anyone can kill it with rocket from the front- its good option
Summary:
For attack: Weapon is red dot ump or 4x pp2k or (any scope here or not scope at all) xm8c/scar/9a RL preferably gustav, or at4 (but harder to kill infantry with it, and defending teams dont have a lot of tanks) First perk can be scope, extra explosives otherwise Second perk at your will (with magnum aksu is an option too)
For defence: Weapon with good irons, xm8c is ok, 9a91 if you can handle low ammo, pp2k if you like its irons First perk extra explosives- its a must Second perk better explosives, but rest are ok too. Explosives- first ATmines (switch to mines every few respawns), then AT4
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Post by shalashaska on Feb 9, 2011 7:40:43 GMT -5
I still find the AKS-74U to be the best of the SMG's, its ironsights are practicaly perfect, allowing you to easily aquire new targets in a frantic firefight after downing the first and without unscoping, with quick controlled bursts it is accurate as hell.
Normaly I roll with the statisticaly best weapon, in all games, so logic dictates the UMP should be better at downing people than the AKS, but I just find it isnt any better, and its sights alot worse.
Realy this is just a debate about which is better between AKS + RPG vs UMP + CarlG, the Carl is better than the RPG, but in order to use it I need to drop the AKS for the UMP, which I find to be worse, its just wether the tradeoff is worth it.
Obviosly I could just switch the loadout depending on the situation, but im rather stuborn and dont like doing that, I prefer to decide the best compromise kit and use it 24/7.
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novem
True Bro
Posts: 193
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Post by novem on Feb 9, 2011 8:24:04 GMT -5
Ok, so from these two ump+CG is better than aksu+rpg, but if you really hate umps sights (i do)- have you tried aksu+cg? Why in order to use cg you need to drop aks for ump? Why cant you mix these loadouts? I dont get it.
And the topics name is best engi loadout, so i thought i would give my advice about it in my 1st post.
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 9, 2011 9:20:57 GMT -5
Yeah I mean there's not a whole lot to discuss between just two loadouts in terms of best. Better to throw in general ideas imo
Guns, there's not a lot to say. There's basically 'guns which are the uzi or pp2000' and 'guns which aren't the uzi or pp2000'. People tend to prefer one of the two types. Beyond that, just pick the gun that you like most/has good irons/makes the best noise/looks best, whatever.
Perk slot 1: is for explosives x2. There's going to be at least one smg you don't hate the irons on, and they all have incredible hipfire anyway. If you keep finding yourself in long range infantry shootouts, switch class.
Perk slot 2: if you take a launcher you should take explosive damage upgrade. Killing tanks in 3 shots is poor, killing them in 5 is beyond useless. And that's what you're for, right? If you're somehow in a situation where the only vehicles you'll see are helos and cars then you don't need it, but when does that happen? And if it is happening, why are you playing engineer? If you just love the smgs and run around with a red dot and magnum, I guess that's that, but you're not really being much of a team player.
AT mines: notoriously underrated, and underused. Good on rush, fantastic on conquest. For all you hipfire heroes, mines let's you take magnum without making you feel like a bad person. 2 mines per tank and 1 per car regardless of the damage boost. Can be used like C4, don't forget, and aren't ever so much worse, but you'll kill yourself using them more.
Launchers: CG is for people who can't aim, AT4 is for people who can aim, but only very slowly. I kid. What a great joke. Really though, the CG is too weak to kill a tank that's any good, even with explo mk 2. Good for shooting at infantry, but the RPG really isn't much worse, and assault is still better. If you're picking CG for anti-infantry you should probably question if this is really the best thing you could be doing. CG is good for blackhawks, humvees etc. AT4 is nice, but standing out in the open to aim your shots will get you taken apart by tank gunners more than a man of your calibre probably deserves. Use against people and buildings is frustratingly pathetic. Teenagers and the unemployed can use them to shoot down helicopters. RPG is lovely against tanks, good against people/buildings and completely useless against helicopters.
Oh, and don't be afraid to drill enemy tanks. Or the people that come out once you start doing that.
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Feb 9, 2011 11:09:37 GMT -5
AT mines: notoriously underrated, and underused. Good on rush, fantastic on conquest. For all you hipfire heroes, mines let's you take magnum without making you feel like a bad person. 2 mines per tank and 1 per car regardless of the damage boost. Can be used like C4, don't forget, and aren't ever so much worse, but you'll kill yourself using them more. AT Mine Platinum Star baby! I think Den bans people who say the RPG is the worst of the three =P. The choice between RPG and CG as well as magnum/body armor or explosives is simple: - Noobtube Pass, Gustav Harbor or similar maps with a lot of buildings: CG and mag/ba - Vehicle maps: RPG and explosive The UMP has lower spread when hipfiring, which makes it a hipfire headshot killer at close range. Despite loving the AK74U and having a platinum star, I think it might be the better choice.
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Post by shalashaska on Feb 9, 2011 11:11:06 GMT -5
Ok, so from these two ump+CG is better than aksu+rpg, but if you really hate umps sights (i do)- have you tried aksu+cg? Why in order to use cg you need to drop aks for ump? Why cant you mix these loadouts? I dont get it. By not using magnum with the AKS-74U, it becomes a 6-9 shot SMG, reducing its effectiveness. The UMP does not need magnum because it is already a 5-8 shot SMG without it. By not using extra explosive power with the Gustav, its damage against tanks drops to 280, drasticaly reducing its capability vs armour, the RPG does not need extra power because its 360 damage is already a 2 shot kill to the side/rear of armoured vehicles. Therefore I find that to keep the maximum effectiveness vs both armour and infantry, the UMP is best paired with the Gustav and the AKS with the RPG, otherwise the capability of ether anti-armour or anti-infantry is reduced too much, through the lack of complimentary perks. And hence 'The best engineer loadout', im trying to workout which combination is overall the most powerful, and with alot of testing I still can't decide. Basicaly, if i choose AKS + RPG, i am more comfortable with my SMG and can rely on it more if i get myself into a heated firefight, my rocket is just as effective against armour, but it flies slower (harder to hit helis) and is no good vs infantry. If i choose UMP + CG, i am less comfortable with my SMG due to the poor iron sights, and more likely to die if i get myself in a fight with multiple enemy infantry. However my rocket is just as effective as the RPG vs armour, better vs helicopters and much better vs infantry.
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novem
True Bro
Posts: 193
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Post by novem on Feb 9, 2011 16:29:42 GMT -5
Ok, the deal is that engineer as a class has a lot more options to choose from, more than other classes and it can obviously be fun, but not always its a good thing. You can be poor mans assault with red dot and rocket launcher, you can play clearly against tanks/helis, you can have a lot of different types of explosives- anti-human, anti-vehicles, or useful mostly while defending (mines) etc. Really, theres no best choice here. Also, you cant have everything- good weapon with scope and magnum, extra explosives, stronger explosives- you have to choose and therefore sacrifice a lot of other good and useful stuff. Its not fair imo and pisses me off also, because for example assault players dont have to make that hard choices (lightweight vs red dot vs extra nades, or armor vs magnum- really simple and without so many consequences) but hey- its life. You will always be uncomfortable with weaker gun, or less or weaker explosives etc. As i am right now I would like to use magnumed extra ammo ump with red dot, extra stronger explosives and at4. But instead im using xm8c with no extra ammo, no scope, but stronger at4 agains tanks and helis. Something for something. As commercial says- the choice is yours
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Feb 9, 2011 18:44:51 GMT -5
Engineer =/= AT4 + Explosive Upgrade + Lightweight = Fail
AT4 and explosives for killing tanks, the Engineers job.
Lightweight for getting to vehicles faster so they can get repaired.
Guns are for assaults and medics.
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 9, 2011 20:17:20 GMT -5
for some reason this made me check my stats and do rough calcs:
percentage of assault kills made with assault guns
66.23
%age medic kills w/medic guns
83.67
%age engineer kills w/engineer guns
40.56
So yeah I agree. Just played a game on Valdez with my squad. We're defending the third base and the engineer gets a pp2k kill. "So that was the first time I've fired my gun all round."
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Post by rubionubio on Feb 9, 2011 22:27:01 GMT -5
Why is the UMP such a better option than the others? I don't get it? I mean, to each his own, but all the SMGs are basically the same TTK, and while some have way more shots-to-kill than others, the slower fire rates mean more recoil, and likely takes just as long to kill in a "real-world" scenario (TTK is a little useless past 10m or so in my opinion). It's really about what you're most comfortable with, if you ask me (which you kind of did). For instance, I would probably take the XM8c above both of those because it's a quick reload, has a very quiet silencer, awesome irons, and most importantly, I've used it a ton and it's way more lethal for me than the other choices you mentioned. When I'm looking for a rapid-fire SMG I usually pick the UZI, because it's very accurate on the move and that's generally what I'm doing. Also in my opinion: Playing an Engineer basically means you're choosing vehicles to be your primary target, just like picking assault means that infantry is your primary target. There are always exceptions, but you know that's the case. So why get crappier at what you've chosen to do because you want to be less-mediocre at something you're not going to be good at anyway? Just avoid the infantry confrontations you can't win (if possible, if not... Shit Happens) and absolutely devastate any vehicles you come across. So in my opinion the only option for an engineer loadout vs. armor is: 1) Some SMG that I'm trying to plat, who cares (if using tracer I will generally pick an SMG with a really quick reload time, again, XM8c) 2) Some pistol that I'm trying to plat, who cares (unless I'm in "Serious Business" mode, in other words, a clan match, then I'll take the 1911) 3) Most maps I'll take the AT4 for anti-armor, but will also sometimes take the RPG when using the tracer gun (on the very large maps I prefer to use the tracer, Heavy Metal or Harvest Day for instance)... Very rarely take the CG because, again, I'm not anti-infantry, I'm anti-armor. If it's a helicopter map, I will almost ALWAYS take the AT4 to shoot 'em down, because all the good chopper pilots take flares these days and tracers are pointless. 4) 2x Rockets (non option, it's the reason you exist...) 5) Explosives Mk. 2 (non option, again, you're only there to blow stuff up!). I don't care if it's overkill or whatever, or it's the same number of hits on the side, etc. etc. In game things are not in a vacuum, and in almost every case the stupid tank is being repaired, or I have to take extra long between shots to lose the gunner, I'm forced to shoot at an angle, etc. etc. etc. and having the extra damage on the AT4 = DEAD TANK REAL QUICKLIKE. Sure, there's probably another engineer around someplace that's probably going to shoot a rocket into the tank and hopefully not miss and hopefully it will be enough to kill the tank that's hopefully in the same spot and hopefully hasn't repaired... But I'll take my chances and kill 'em myself with my trusty tactical nuke
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 10, 2011 4:56:51 GMT -5
Pretty much agree with all of that. The engineer guns are all fine, would be truly nutty professor behaviour to refuse to countenance one because its ttk was 0.004 higher or it added an extra 0.1 amp per minute. Chances are, as people were saying about the AUG v M416 in the other thread, that you'll actually be better with the 'worse' one if it works how you like. Which makes it not actually worse at all. You bring your own stats to the equation as well obv. Seems like you like the krinkov and not really the ump, wouldn't surprise me if you were better with the 74u even with the extra bullet being necessary.
But don't forget mines. First off, a lot of decent tanks will be outta their before you've even loaded your second rocket into the tube. Mines it's all over before they know what's up. And you don't get to jump out the tank. One guy with a launcher is a slow way to kill a tank. Plus, mines are just fun. There's no physical skill, it's purely mental. And there's nothing more fun than killing someone entirely because you're smart and he's dumb. Get creative, don't just stick pairs of them on roads. Put them where you'd drive, use them like C4 (drill + AT mines is definitely my favourite way to kill tanks at the moment). I got a radical triple kill last week on Atacama Desert by throwing mines out the back of a Hind flying over their base.
For maps when you're going to be spending your time inside vehicles, or standing behind them squirting repair juice on them, mines all the way. You don't really have time to mess around with slow killing, slow reloading launchers. You can throw them down in no time and then they kill people when you're not even there. Lovely stuff. Plus freeing up perk 2 can really help for those times when you absolutely must jump out the Bradley, kill the guy planting the bomb/capping the flag and get back inside whilst in the middle of a poostorm.
Also that talk of main weapons: your main weapon is totally the repair tool. That or a tank.
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phale
True Bro
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Post by phale on Feb 10, 2011 15:37:03 GMT -5
Yes, AT Mines are crucial on tank maps and drastically underused. Mines are easily the most effective way to take out tanks if you aren't an idiot in placing them. Tank drivers don't really look out for mines anymore, and if they are, they are paying less attention to you and your teammates. Plus, you don't need to run Extra Explosive Damage with the mines, so you can use that Magnum on the 74u, or Body Armor. And if you have effectively prevented tank activity with the mines, you can then feel free to use the Carl Gustav on infantry and helicopters. Adapting to the situation isn't that hard, just a couple flicks up or down on the loadout menu, but it can be extremely effective for your anti-vehicle purposes. Besides, what else are you going to do while you wait to respawn?
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Feb 10, 2011 18:47:30 GMT -5
God, I hate anti-tank mines, they're completely unbalanced.
It's not getting killed by them that I hate, it's getting killed while the player is a medic after he died and switched classes, leaving the mines forever.
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novem
True Bro
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Post by novem on Feb 11, 2011 7:24:35 GMT -5
But these are only 3 or 6 mines and quite easy to spot if you drive carefully and your teammates also can destroy them for you.
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 11, 2011 9:10:51 GMT -5
It's only six mines in the same way you only have six rockets. You can get them off ammo boxes. But you knew that and I get what you mean.
But, what does that tell you? Your mines aren't doing a whole lot. If they're sat in place all game, then yeah you only got 6. Be more proactive in your mine usage. The engineer with his silenced smg is a really great infiltrating class to get behind enemy lines with. Plant those mines right close to the enemy where they don't expect to look. Hell, plant them right in front of newly-spawned vehicles if you want. Plus, you're infiltrating. Wouldn't want to shoot an unbelievably loud rocket now would you? Mines are your friend if you're going behind enemy lines. When I first started messing around with them I felt the same way you do - plant 6 and then you're 'done', stuck waiting around, then you respawn as something else. Eight minutes later maybe you kill a tank. This is why they're better on conquest too. Normally more vehicles and normally more routes. Driving your bradley down the one road to the mcom, probably gonna spot those mines you left right there in the open. Well, probably. Even that gets kills, but you get the idea.
So yeah basically, don't feel the need to place 6 perfect mines and just sit around bored. Get in the thick of the action (your smg is best up close anyway, and that's also where you'll find your team's assaults, which you badly need) and start making a big mess with mines like that. Much more fun, as well as more effective in my experience. If your mines are blowing up within a minute of placing them, and you have an assault with you, you won't even be thinking about how you can only have six at once. Plus even then there's nothing to stop you having 2 or even 4 on other routes while you keep throwing and exploding the remainder.
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Post by panocek on Feb 11, 2011 15:58:09 GMT -5
Nope, you have 4 (8 with extra explosives) rockets. And, about thread: G3 Grach AT4 Both Explosives spec /thread
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 11, 2011 18:04:26 GMT -5
I think you missed the point, but yeah it's 8.
also all-kit on an engineer is kind of gross to me, or at least gauche
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Post by rubionubio on Feb 11, 2011 21:31:53 GMT -5
Hahah gauche.
I haven't heard that word in forever. Cheers to you sir.
But yea, I don't think he got the point. Well said though Rax, because I tend to do the "plant my mines on the common paths then respawn as an assault" thing instead of planting them by the enemy vehicles, etc.
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Post by FRC Carnage on Feb 11, 2011 23:19:28 GMT -5
9A-91 Avtomat M93R Burst AT4 or CG depending on what kind of vehicles are on map Both Explosives spec
or
M14 Grach AT -4 Both Explosives spec
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Post by 418Y on Feb 14, 2011 10:56:43 GMT -5
G3 and M1911 AT4 or CG Both Explosives specs V-Smoke
Fuck SMGs, real men love their gun LOUD!
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Feb 14, 2011 18:49:14 GMT -5
Engineer =/= AT4 + Explosive Upgrade + Lightweight = Fail AT4 and explosives for killing tanks, the Engineers job. Lightweight for getting to vehicles faster so they can get repaired. Guns are for assaults and medics. There is one other good class for the engi too. CG + Explosive Upgrade + Extra Explosives Stick with an assault and give the rest of your team fire support. If necessary, you can still kill a tank easily.
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 14, 2011 20:23:34 GMT -5
Yeah I guess it's easy to rag on the CG for being a pretty maladroit weapon when really it can get by just fine for most things. Personally, I just find myself frustrated when I shoot CGs at tanks due to the damage it does, whereas when I shoot RPGs at people it normally does exactly what I wanted it to. If that swings the other way for you, then go for the CG.
It is highly important to note, however, that the RPG looks much cooler when reloading, especially when viewed in third person.
But for pure anti-infantry CG engineer: why not just be an assault with grenadex2 and explo x2.? I have better success with that. Plus you don't have to stick with an assault because you are one (!)
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Feb 14, 2011 20:40:11 GMT -5
40mm Grenades are harder to aim, do less damage, have a much smaller kill radius, and are terrible against tanks.
Also, no scope.
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 15, 2011 5:22:45 GMT -5
They fly and fire faster though, right? Despite my aim being in general awful, seem to have some vague intuition for arcing stuff like grenades and 40mms so they've always done right by me. And damage/kill radius only matters if you miss
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Post by ][nquisitor Mateo on Feb 15, 2011 10:09:45 GMT -5
You can't get a multikill with a small boom.
Also, GLs don't work point blank.
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 15, 2011 10:52:45 GMT -5
I was thinking about that. They don't go off, but they kill on an impact right? I can't think for sure, but I've done it half a dozen times with smoke grenades so I can't imagine why it would be different. It's not going to explode, sure, but at least that means you won't kill yourself (can't be the only guy that's been killed by a teammate walking past them right as they shoot...). If you're used to using slug shotguns or are one of those point blank snipers, actually makes it pretty decent up close, no?
Also, I've totally got a triple kill with a vanilla grenade. Which is like what, 50cm radius? Obviously that's very lucky, but sniper gangs aside, if people are close, they tend to be very close.
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Post by Keralastic on Feb 15, 2011 18:14:18 GMT -5
40mm grenades work just fine at point-blank, as long as you aim properly. You can even destroy walls and ceilings with point-blank grenades, which can be nifty if you're trying to be quiet.
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 15, 2011 19:14:07 GMT -5
Didn't know about the walls. That at least makes a decent third option to slowly knifing open doors or loudly shotgunning them away.
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Post by klokateer on Feb 16, 2011 14:25:24 GMT -5
raxcoswell is my damn hero. you are the embodiment of the engineer I try to be. also you make me laugh with your posts ~ On topic... There is no "best" engineer loadout as each situation, map, and stage of map dictates a need for something different. Engineer is the kit that requires the most thought during any given period of a match. My favorite way to play (note; opinion) is to lay AT mines as raxcoswell suggests - up close and personal. I tend to stick with weapons that are great at CQC situations (which SMG isn't really?) and/or I use shotguns. Once I've laid mines on the high traffic paths, even if I don't get the opportunity to cover *every* path, I switch to AT4 and keep doing my thing - infiltration and CQC. The engineer is versatile and requires thought. If you're on a map with no tanks and the Gustav is your favorite weapon... abuse the shit out of it. But, if there are jeeps and quads about, might as well drop a few AT mines on one of your many lives that round - you WILL get a kill from it. Next time you respawn grab your Gustav again and continue on your merry way. As far as weapons go, choose which one feels the best in your hands. They're all good, every weapon in this game actually, so just pick your favorite and go to town.
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