Black Ops Recoil Plots + MW3, COD4 links

[psijaka]

Hey mannon, here is the M60 grip at medium range, showing burst firing, single shotting and aiming low, as well as no recoil compensation on full auto.





EDIT - have added AK47 for comparison

I tried plotting 4 and 5 round bursts, but as these are progressively less effective, I omitted them for clarity. I also tried shifting aim downwards, which produced a similar effect to aiming low. However, you would need a gentle touch to pull this off effectively at this range; get it wrong by shifting too quickly and you miss (and die).

A few points to note:

-remember that the lines are there for clarity only; read the times of the markers which represent when the round is fired. Dashed lines = breaks between bursts.

-slow single shotting the most deadly, but there is a chance that you could have got the kill quicker if you burst fired or even went on to full auto and aimed low. And you mustn't miss!

-faster single shotting very deadly, but if you are loosing off shots more quickly, is there a greater chance that your aim would be off? There certainly would be with the Wii remote.

-2 or 3 round burst also pretty deadly, with the chance of an earlier kill than for slow single shotting. Gap between bursts = 200ms; haven't tried longer; so many possible combinations.

-aiming low on full auto is a simple way of increasing chances of a kill. Aim for their balls!

-M60 without grip looks pretty lame. Maybe OK for single shotting if you take your time. Grip for me unless I want some fun spraying with emags/SA

NOTE - if any bros want me to look at any particular gun/combo, just post a request; I'll do my best.

[kirbyderby]

Request: Commando47 at mid-range.
Comparisons for automatic, short 2 and 3 round bursts-100ms?
Longer bursts, something between 4 to 7.
Same tests w/silencer (4 shot kill)

I hope that's not asking for too much or that the results are boring and stupid.

[psijaka]

Will give this a go, kirbyderby. AK47 a favourite of mine, although I haven't used it much since I have started climbing the long prestige ladder. It will be a few days though; posting some general plots on the OP.

[mannon]

Oooh! Thanks tons! Yeah M60 is a good one. My other pick would have been the Commando47! yay!

Probably should do the FAMAS at some point, mainly for reference and to know what our competition's kill-time percentages are. ;3 Though I don't think there's any rush.

I'm real curious to see the Skorp, but mainly just for curiosity's sake. I can imagine it goes something like 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 80% 100%! ;3 Probably not really any need to bother with recoil compensation on it either. (Well maybe aim low, though I think even centered it would only every kick over the target at very extreme ranges, and even then very very rarely.)

Might be worth running the M14 through there with various timings like you showed two timings for the M60.

Thanks again for all the awesomeness that is this thread! Now I'm just REALLY hoping we find a way to crack the MW3 files so we can get the real weapon stats and be able to do this for MW3 when it comes out... mmm... yummy.

It will be even more useful in a game with less copy & paste when it comes to weapon stats.

[psijaka]

mannon

Check out the OP and the plots on page 7 for the Skorpion. Beast, even without grip.

I too am really hoping that we can crack the MW3 gun stats; hopefully I should be able to just plug them in to my spreadsheet.

Unless they come up with a completely different method of handling recoil, that is.

[mannon]

Okay I'm looking at the Spectre chart and theory crafting a tad... It looks like going full auto is really quite effective with compensation. But that burst firing actually catches up by the last shot of the second burst.

Two things come to mind. Firstly that two three shot bursts is getting about the same performance at just under half a second when compared to full auto, but fires 6 shots instead of 8, so could be good for ammo conservation, though you do give up higher chances on even faster kills.

On the other hand the third burst outclasses everything for finishing off opponents still not dead by half a second because even with compensation the likelihood of shots hitting falls off and thus the TTK's flatten out considerably for full auto.

This leads me to the conclusion that a 3 shot burst at this range is actually not optimal for the Spectre, because the zero chance of 1 burst killing is actually a pretty significant slowdown.

Conversly after ~8 shots the fully auto accuracy is pretty bad.

I'm wondering if we could somewhat marry the best of both worlds. Maybe you could fire a long 6 to 8 shot burst with recoil compensation, and if they are still alive pause and start over. It would mean realigning your shot during the pause, but given the low accuracy after about 8 shots I think it would pay off, especially considering you would probably only need 1 or 2 hits.

At the very least I would suggest a burst of 4 shots so that you have at least some chance of a 1 burst kill, though 5 would give you at least a little margin for error while still preserving high accuracy.

Anyway... just some thoughts and theorycrafting. I haven't really used the spectre much.

These charts are awesome, looking forward to Commando47! Still mulling over the M60.

[mannon]

Thoughts on the M60 at the moment. Fast single shooting usually doesn't affect my aim as I just put the irons on target then don't move the stick and mash the trigger. I can see how it would be a problem with the Wii, but on xbox as long as you're aiming at a stationary target you'll always return to that spot unless you move your aim.

Having said that I definitely think 250ms is superior to 200ms. The first possible kill opportunity for 200ms is okay at ~75%, but for only 100ms more you take that to 100%, and with 200ms you sometimes won't even get your kill until 0.6s or later. I'd rather go for the near guaranteed kill at 0.5 seconds. That's just flat awesomesauce.

How much slower do you have to single shot without a grip to get that 100% chance like that?

I sometimes have gone without the grip because I wanted Big Ammo and wanted Hardened, but I think the grip definitely makes a big enough difference to warrant it being neigh permanently attached. Even in Nuketown there are some long sightlines I like to use.

Making me want to go ride the pig... Sadly I haven't unlocked it yet on this prestige. ;3

[psijaka]

mannon

100% recentering occurs:

0.267s M60
0.235s M60+grip

This derived from

max time = max kick / (centerspeed/5)

The plots apparently show 100% some time before this of course; it is only a graph after all.

[psijaka]

Sept 9, 2011 20:08:29 GMT -5 mannon said:

Okay I'm looking at the Spectre chart and theory crafting a tad... It looks like going full auto is really quite effective with compensation. But that burst firing actually catches up by the last shot of the second burst.

-

Conversly after ~8 shots the fully auto accuracy is pretty bad.

Re-Spectre

We have to remember that on full auto a skilled player will adjust their aim depending upon how far off target the recoil is throwing their aim. The recoil is generally up and to the right, but as it is random, you could easily get therr shots in a row pulling upwards and not to the right. Or to the right and not up. Or be pretty much on target. A player with fast reactions will be able to respond to this; whereas this is one thing that I cannot really simulate; I can only shift the aim at a constant rate.

So that at this range it may be possible for players to do better than the plots suggest with the Spectre on full auto.

[psijaka]

Sept 9, 2011 3:07:48 GMT -5 mannon said:

Oooh! Thanks tons!
I'm real curious to see the Skorp, but mainly just for curiosity's sake. I can imagine it goes something like 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 80% 100%! ;3 Probably not really any need to bother with recoil compensation on it either. (Well maybe aim low, though I think even centered it would only every kick over the target at very extreme ranges, and even then very very rarely.)

No need to compensate at all for the Skorpion. If you aim low, you will decrease the deadliness of the gun.

The Skorp is definately my favourite smg. Used it for the first time in several weeks this morning, went 18:2 on Array, including the scalps of 4 snipers on the mast [/boast]. Really is deadly.

[mannon]

I think fast reactions helps you more when you get two consecutive bad kicks in the same general direction, and even then you are generally reacting after you've already missed at least 1 if not 2 shots, depending upon ROF. Obviously faster reactions means better performance, but even attempting to react directly can be problematic at times because you will inevitably lose track of what you're actual aim spot is and then you are left purely reacting to the direction the gun is pointing and having to guess where the aim location is based on recentering.

I suppose with lots of practice, high reactions, and just plain talent you can train yourself to know how far you've kicked and keep track of where your actual aim location is amid all that shaking around. Personally I find the shaking of recoil a bit disorienting. That's why I used to always overcompensate when trying to compensate for the recoil. I was always trying to put the iron sights right on target, but if you're constantly aiming towards the target you will overshoot them due to centerspeed and reaction time and miss a lot.

I think even a high reaction player will want to generally do the slow diagonal compensation and only react dynamically to particularly strong kicks. One thing I like about these charts is we're showing that you don't have to have super awesome recoil reaction compensation. You can single shot, burst, aim low, drift, or a combination of the above and still achieve very fast kill times at high percentage rates, and that is enough to win most fights.

In fact I'd say if you can kill a guy in close to half a second that TTK is fast enough to win the vast majority of your firefights. From there you can simply focus on avoiding fights that require an even faster TTK to survive. Something anybody who ran SMG's or anything besides SP in MW2 should be well versed in... tactics. Then again lots of people would just rather ignore tactics completely and simply run and gun everything all the time, and for that you truly need the fastest possible TTK at all ranges, all the time, or you will run into somebody that will end your killstreak rather often. (PS. I love being that guy! heh)

[mannon]

Yeah as for the skorp I don't think there's really any reason to aim it low. It does have a very slightly stronger up kick than down, but the vertical recoil is inconsequential. It has far more horizontal recoil and even then not that much.

I think it is probably best aimed at what, about shoulder height where the target is widest and you might get some headshots. At least unless the target is really far away and then I dunno. How far away would a target even have to be for the vertical recoil to actually be strong enough to have a wider arc than the height of a standing man? I guess theoretically if the target were at such a distance maybe hips or stomach would help keep vertical shots in there. But then again with the recenter rate I doubt it even matters. Even if the only shots that hit are fully recentered ones you can still kill somebody in 1 clip or less. They just gotta stand still or you gotta be real good at tracking.

[psijaka]

It is definately not worth worrying about the minimal upwards kick of the Skorpion. Just aim and hold your finger on the trigger until they go down.

As for longshotting with the Skorpion; even if it is only possible to see part of the target, it is still worth taking careful aim and letting them have a clip; there is a very high chance that they will go down even if fully recentered shots are required (see plots page 7). The trick is to keep your aim steady (easy with analogue joysticks as there is no sway; not so easy with the wii remote).

[psijaka]

Sept 8, 2011 17:47:29 GMT -5 kirbyderby said:

Request: Commando47 at mid-range.
Comparisons for automatic, short 2 and 3 round bursts-100ms?
Longer bursts, something between 4 to 7.
Same tests w/silencer (4 shot kill)

I hope that's not asking for too much or that the results are boring and stupid.

kirbyderby, mannon

Here is the AK47 at mid range (35m). Full auto, aiming low, 2 & 3 round bursts and single shotting at 2 different speeds covered (same as for M60 plots I posted earlier).


Same story as for the M60 really. Single shotting the most reliable kill, but slow (and you cannot afford to miss). Short bursts less reliable but could result in a faster kill. Full auto least reliable, but you ar epumping out more lead; useful for a moving target.

[mannon]

Interesting... hmm

[psijaka]

Have posted the AK47 plot next to the M60 plot for comparison. See top of this page.

[kirbyderby]

So aiming low doesn't really help much here-about 5% at the most, probably from a few strong-upward recoils. Seems like it would be best to just fire as soon as you see an enemy and account for strong directional recoil mid-firing.

I find the comparison most interesting. The M60 is a 3-shot kill at this range, right?
With a grip, it is competitive with the Commando47 at this range. Equal for single-shotting. hmm, I guess the M60 would totally pwn these charts vs. the Commando47 at long range or vs a suppressed Commando47. Close range would probably depend on if one guy got surprised, if M60 guy got his sights up/has SoH or Steady Aim, and a lot of other factors that no chart can reliably account for. Well, except for the hip firing...

Hmm. Is it possible to use hip-fire values to calculate probabilities within these charts? It could be a valuable addition to any "close range" charts.

[psijaka]

Aiming low doesn't really help much at this range, but becomes more singnificant at short and close range (see OP).

There are some fairly subtle differences between the plots. The AK47 is marginally more deadly for single shotting at 200ms, but this situation will be reversed at long range where the AK is a 4 shot kill; here the M60 will have a big advantage. And yes, M60 = 3SK at 35m.

At close range, we have to be a bit careful about making comparisons, as people are unlikely to be standing around, and hip firing is viable, which I cannot simulate (yet?).

If I were to do a comparison between different classes at close or short range, I would include ADS time. This to come soon.

[psijaka]

Sept 13, 2011 4:03:06 GMT -5 kirbyderby said:

So aiming low doesn't really help much here-about 5% at the most, probably from a few strong-upward recoils. Seems like it would be best to just fire as soon as you see an enemy and account for strong directional recoil mid-firing.

I find the comparison most interesting. The M60 is a 3-shot kill at this range, right?
With a grip, it is competitive with the Commando47 at this range. Equal for single-shotting. hmm, I guess the M60 would totally pwn these charts vs. the Commando47 at long range or vs a suppressed Commando47. Close range would probably depend on if one guy got surprised, if M60 guy got his sights up/has SoH or Steady Aim, and a lot of other factors that no chart can reliably account for. Well, except for the hip firing...

Hmm. Is it possible to use hip-fire values to calculate probabilities within these charts? It could be a valuable addition to any "close range" charts.

Am looking at hip firing, but am not sure exactly how the variation between the min and max spread works. When I hip fire the M60, the crosshairs go in and out as I fire when standing still. Is this for effect or is the spread affected by the previous round?

[psijaka]

OK here is a plot of burst firing at medium range - 35m (also in the OP).

All the usual suspects are here, and I have added the Skorpion full auto and AK74 burst fire just for comparison



These are 3 round bursts with a 200ms gap between bursts (this is default for G11,M16 of course). The dashed lines show the gaps between the bursts. EDIT -THIS IS INCORRECT FOR THE M16 AND G11.

[asasa]

What are the slashed lines for?


Also, since these are 3 shot bursts with full reentering in-between, should the values not reach 100% @ 400ms [or 200ms on guns that are 2HK?]

[psijaka]

The slashed lines show the gap between bursts.

For single shotting you would get the 3SK kill in 400ms if full recentering takes place within 200ms. But remember that these are 3 round bursts, so, even with full recentering in the gap, guaranteed kill time would be 400ms + fire time x4 (for the two bursts that precede the killing shot)

And of course, full recentering does not always take place within 200 ms, but I chose this as it is the gap for the M16 & G11.

Hope this explains, asasa

[asasa]

Ah, okay.

Still.. the values seem a bit low.

[psijaka]

I could repeat the simulation with a gap of 250ms, so full recentering will probably be guaranteed, but the plot probably wouldn't be that interesting; the 2nd burst will occur 50ms later but be more deadly, and the third burst will be a 100% kill rate flat line 100ms later than the plot above. Not sure I can be bothered.

[asasa]

Now that I think about it more it makes sense.

I forgot that 200ms max recenter on the AK, for example, didnt include the additional deviation on the previous shot.

[psijaka]

Yes, a bit complex isn't it.

It is a bit of a dilemma choosing between burst firing and single shotting; taking the AK47 (yellow diamond plot). the single shot guaranteed kill takes place at 400ms (assuming all shots on target and use of an accurately set modded controller). In this time, someone burst firing (200ms gap) will have loosed off 4 shots and have had around a 55% chance of getting the kill.

If the target is moving, or if someone's aim isn't totally accurate, then I would say that the advantage swings further in favour of burst firing, as a near miss might get a lucky hit on an arm, whatever.

Single shotting best for true longshotting of a stationary target, but at this range (35m), open to debate.

[psijaka]

EDIT - have removed the "burst firing at 35m" plot from the OP, due to error in calculating the M16 and G11 burst delay time.

Any suggestions as to how best compare the guns when burst firing? I'm really not sure how to proceed.

Perhaps include the full autos with a 250ms gap between bursts, as this is similar to the gap for the G11 and M16 (248 and 264ms)

[asasa]

Damn, I always wondered why the G11 felt like it had a lower delay...

But as for being useful, sorry, no ideas

[psijaka]

New burst fire recoil chart. Hope that you understand the muddle. I may simplify.



I have kept the full autos with a gap of 200ms, but the M16 and G11 gap is 200ms + firetime; perhaps this is being unfair on them???

I am not sure how best to display the burst fire performance; so many variables. Perhaps an impossible task.

Suggestions please.

[banana]

Ak74u grip vs ak74u rapid fire vs ak74u grip+ rapid fire
For short and close range graphs please