scorp
True Bro
Posts: 10,318
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Post by scorp on Aug 13, 2009 15:19:59 GMT -5
Hey Scorp here coming from C4C. (http://www.cod4central.com/forums/index.php) Right now the site is down and having host problems so I can't post there anymore... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyways, this is how I would have balanced CoD4 like the title says. I know it's a pretty darn well balanced game but there's changes I would personally like that I think others would too. So please if you disagree with anything list why please. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- G36C: Alright, I really like this gun, though with a lower DPS then the M4 something besides the sway should be better. I understand sway can mean a lot but seriously there really should be something else. I'd say either do two things: #1: Increase the hip-fire accuracy this was actually done in the single player portion of CoD4. I think it could work here too. Like the M4's: ------------- ||||||||||||||||||||||||||| -------------- G36C's: -------- ||||||||||||||||||| --------- #2: Up the reloads speeds so both empty and not empty are faster then the M4A1. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- R700: I firmly the believe the ammo amount should be the same. Also the bug where the R700 will "miss" needs to be fixed to make it balanced IMO. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- P90: A small up in recoil would be good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- M1911: I think they should of actually made it do more damage then the USP, not as much as the D.eagle, but a little more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- M16: This one's kinda hard... I'd say it should always be a 2HK when not using SP. With it only OHK to the chest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uzi: I really don't see the advantage this gun has, at all. I would've gave it a very slight hip-fire accuracy boost, a very slight one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MP44: Well I guess it would be annoying to see lots people running around with it so I don't really care honestly. It's actually quite good in HC with it having no sway anyways. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you disagree with anything post why like I said please. : ) Thank you for your time.
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n1gh7
True Bro
Black Market Dealer
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Post by n1gh7 on Aug 13, 2009 18:19:48 GMT -5
I would have balanced CoD4 by giving everyone the same gun, no perks, have them play on perfectly symmetrical maps with the same clothes, no kill streak rewards, same nades for everyone, etc.
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Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
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Post by Den on Aug 13, 2009 18:28:23 GMT -5
I would balance COD4 by making setting it on its center of mass and keeping it steady to prevent it from tipping in any direction.
Also Default Classes only.
ALSO, both the M16 and G36c would have 30 damage at any range.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Aug 13, 2009 18:44:41 GMT -5
That M16/G36c idea is genius. Then I would have only used the G36c with a suppressor in 30 Health Search. It would have been amazing.
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scorp
True Bro
Posts: 10,318
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Post by scorp on Aug 13, 2009 20:30:17 GMT -5
>_>
If you're going to disagree with me at least take me seriously.
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Post by nogert on Aug 14, 2009 3:26:09 GMT -5
Oh goody, a balance thread.
>Assault rifles:
M16: -Damage now 35-30 -Hip spread slightly increased -RaiseTime and dropTime increased to about 1.5x their original values
AK47: -Hip spread slightly increased -Sway speed increased -(maybe decrease range to 1000-1500 if still the most powerful weapon)
M4: Damage increase to 30-23 -Run base speed changed to 1.00
G3: -damage increase to 49-30 (helps resist juggernaut) -Knife with silencer bug fixed (not really balance) -Run base speed changed to 1.00 -(Maybe 49-35, but it might become obscenly powerful unless fire rate caps were put in)
G36c: -Damage increase to 30-26 -Run base speed changed to 1.00
M14: Damage increase to 50-49
MP44: Decrease recoil (increase center speed?) Damage decrease to 35-30
>SMG's
MP5: -Damage increase/decrease to 35-23 -Slight hip fire spread increase
Skorpion: -Damage increase/decrease to 49-23 -Range increased to 500-1000 -Reload add time reduced by about .2 seconds -RaiseTime and dropTime decreased to about .7x their original values -Run base speed changed to 1.05
Mini-Uzi: -Damage increase to 30-23 -Reduce reload time -RaiseTime and dropTime decreased to about .7x their original values -Run base speed changed to 1.05 -(Maybe increase range to 1000-1250)
AK74u: -Hipfire increased (to what it has when it has an attachment) -Increase sway speed -RaiseTime and dropTime increased to about 1.25x their original values -Run base speed changed to. 95 (is this already in?)
P90: -(Maybe small increase in hipfire)
>LMG's
SAW: -Damage increase to 35-30 (range:500-1000)
RPD: Damage decrease to 40-35(range:1000-1500)
M60: -(Maybe damage increase to 50-49?)
>Shotguns
W1200 -Range increased to 400-750 (Too much?) -Run base speed increase to 1.05 -No spread penalties when using ADS
M1014 -Range increased to 400-750 -Run base speed increase to 1.05 -No spread penalties when using ADS -(Maybe increase mag size to 5?)
>Snipers Option 1: Radical new sniper design; requesting input
Universal: -All snipers now do a base 70-51 damage with a 3500-4000 range -Most snipers also have a base run speed of .9 (Barrett speed is .75)
Multipliers: Head, Neck, upperbody, lowerbody, limbs M40: 3.0, 2.0, 1.5, 1.4, 1.35 M21: 3.0, 2.0, 1.5, 1.35, 1.35 SVD: 3.0, 2.0, 2.0, 1.4,. 1.35 R700: 3.0, 3.0, 2.0, 1.4,. 1.35 Barrett: 3.0, 2.0, 2.0, 1.5,. 1.35
-SVD ADSIdleAmount increased to 45 -R700 ADSIdleAmount decreased to 40 -Barret ADSIdleAmount increased to 60 -M21 given a substantial increase in recoil (ie. no spamming) -R700 initial ammo loadout increased to 16 (from 12)
Basic rundown of what this does: Makes snipers less dependent on stopping power Lets stopping power affect all weapons (ie. old Dragnov) Headshots are guaranteed kills Snipers can now kill someone in 1 hit w juggernaut Balance easily alterable by changing each rifles individual range However, it is very complicated
Option 2: Not so radical design; damage same as vanilla
M40: 2.0, 2.0, 1.1, 1.0, 1.0 M21: 2.0, 1.1, 1.1 1.0, 1.0 SVD: 2.0, 1.5, 1.5, 1.0 1.0 R700: 2.0, 1.5, 1.5, 1.1, 1.0 Barrett: 2.0, 1.5, 1.5, 1.1, 1.0
-M40 ADSIdleAmount decreased to 33 -SVD ADSIdleAmount increased to 45 -R700 ADSIdleAmount decreased to 50 -Barret ADSIdleAmount increased to 60 -R700 initial ammo loadout increased to 16 (from 12)
>Pistols
-M9 range increase to 400-600 -USP and M1911 damage swapped -USP hip fire spread slightly reduced -Deagle damage decreased to 49-29 -Deagle hip fire decreased to that of the USP
Additional changes: -Frag Grenade kill radius reduced (not necessarily blast radius) -Slightly increase C4 blast and kill radius -Slightly increase RPG blast radius (not necessarily kill radius) -Claymore damage decreased to 150-50 -Grips on shotguns also slighty reduce hip fire accuracy -ACOG scopes have 75% of their current ADSIdleAmount (optionally/additionally increase range of weapon when equpped) [Note: Neither apply to snipers] -Maybe decrease Helicopter health?
>If at all possible, changes to perks could help, although they are not explicitly needed or necessary (this would stop people from whining too). -Double Tap bonus increased to 1.4 -Steady aim bonus reduced to 75% from 65% (less of an effect) -Reduce time available in last stand (~7seconds from 10) -Make Martyrdom not deploy on headshots or explosive deaths (ie last stand) I personally don't have any griefs with any perks, but others do sooo...
I think thats it... comments?
Edi: Typo; numbers tweak + new sniper option
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iKONIG
True Bro
Don't know what to put here, Just something random.
Posts: 220
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Post by iKONIG on Aug 14, 2009 5:55:27 GMT -5
wow, a mighty big post for your first count, that should earn you brownie points : )
i gotta say, that looks good from MY view, but I think we should wait for Uncle Den to go over it before compliment it.
*just in case ;D
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scorp
True Bro
Posts: 10,318
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Post by scorp on Aug 14, 2009 9:42:23 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure it only has to be in your first three on the "Hey, Den" board. Otherwise I wouldn't have put it in mine...
Well anyways that sounds good, though I dunno if the snipers should change or not...
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dog
True Bro
woof
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Post by dog on Aug 14, 2009 13:09:43 GMT -5
I would balance COD4 by making setting it on its center of mass and keeping it steady to prevent it from tipping in any direction. Rofl. Den never loses his sense of humour. ;D
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Post by ssog on Aug 14, 2009 15:10:16 GMT -5
>_> If you're going to disagree with me at least take me seriously. Why should he treat you any differently than he treats everyone else?
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j1000
True Bro
Posts: 268
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Post by j1000 on Aug 14, 2009 16:42:27 GMT -5
I wouldn't make micro-alterations to every single weapon. Instead I'd just improve the guns that suck. For instance, give the Uzi and Skorpion faster reload times, and give them the fast up/down times of the MP5. I'd also extend the high-damage range of the Skorpion a bit. Also, the shotgun damage range needs to be extended. They should hit 0 at 1000 inches or something like that.
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Post by robesh on Aug 14, 2009 18:15:46 GMT -5
- Make the M16 raise/drop time the same as the AK-47.
- Make the M16's damage 30-20.
- Make the AK-74u have the same run-speed as an SMG.
- Make the AK-74u's raise/drop time the same as the MP5.
- Make the AK-74u's ADS transition that of an SMG.
- Remove the AK-74u's hip-fire discrepancy with RDS or Suppressor.*
- Make the Mini-Uzi have increased RoF.
- Make the Mini-Uzi have decreased recoil.
- Decrease the Mini-Uzi's reload time.
- Increase the SAW without grip's hip-fire accuracy.*
- Decrease the Skorpion's reload time.
- Give the M14 a 1.5 multiplier to the chest.*
- Decrease the R700 sway to 40.
- Decrease the Barrett .50 cal's chest multiplier to 1.1.
- Give the Skorpian the "Rifle Bullet" feature, and increased wall penetration.
- Make the R700 have 75 damage when an ACOG is attached.
- Make the RPG more accurate. Significantly decrease the twisting and spiraling that it does.
- Decrease the Stun Grenade's direct impact damage to 15. OR Increase the Flash Grenade, Smoke Grenade, and Frag Grenades direct impact to 40.
- Make the Stun Grenade blow up after 1 second, even if it doesn't hit anything.
- Make the Helicopter put higher threat on the players with lower score.
- Increase the range of the shotguns.
- Increase the damage of the W1200 to 50-20.
- Increase the damage of the M1014 to 40-10.
- Decrease the all of the pistol's raise time.
- Make it so you can move when holding fire on claymores.
- Increase the R700's damage to 75-70.*
- Decrease the R700's range to 250-251.*
- Increase the G3's damage to 49-35.
- Make it so that when crouched or prone with the M4, the idle amount and sway speed are reduced.
- Make the AK-47's damage permanently 40-20.
- Decrease the USP's range to 350-2500.
- Increase the 1911's range to 500-2500.
- Make it so when you aim down the sights with a shotgun, the spread doesn't change.
- Increase the Desert Eagle's headshot multiplier to 1.5.
- Increase Sonic Boom's multiplier to 1.4.*
* I'm not sure if this would make it more balanced.
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i8
True Bro
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Post by i8 on Aug 14, 2009 19:05:57 GMT -5
i would only change M16A4 to 30 20 damage and Desert Eagle to 50 20 damage
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Post by nogert on Aug 14, 2009 20:26:01 GMT -5
Before I do this, I want to say I don't want this to be confontational or appear mean in any way; I want this to be a dicussion. - Make the M16 raise/drop time the same as the AK-47. - Make the M16's damage 30-20. This effectively eliminates the M16 as a competitive gun. - Make the AK-74u have the same run-speed as an SMG. - Make the AK-74u's raise/drop time the same as the MP5. - Make the AK-74u's ADS transition that of an SMG. - Remove the AK-74u's hip-fire discrepancy with RDS or Suppressor.* So the AK74u will be better than the mp5 in every way even more now? - Make the Mini-Uzi have increased RoF. - Make the Mini-Uzi have decreased recoil. - Decrease the Mini-Uzi's reload time. I agree with everything but the rof buff; It already goes through its mag fast enough. - Increase the SAW without grip's hip-fire accuracy.* Rather than hip spread, why not increase damage to 35-30 with a small range to boost close range performance at the same time as encouraging using something other than stopping power, something I try to do. This will prevent people running around with it as a smg. - Decrease the Skorpion's reload time. Agree - Give the M14 a 1.5 multiplier to the chest.* Once again, this makes stopping power necessary to succeed; I want to see some diversity in the perk two slot. Also, people would run around with steady aim and spam in someones direction, I already do this with the current M14. - Decrease the R700 sway to 40. - Decrease the Barrett .50 cal's chest multiplier to 1.1. - Make the R700 have 75 damage when an ACOG is attached. This effectively eliminates the usage of the Barrett, while making the R700 replace the M40. - Give the Skorpian the "Rifle Bullet" feature, and increased wall penetration. Considering the round this thing fires, I found the current mega damage silly enough. I would rather suggest a different approach (ie increased running speed, faster reload, longer range, etc...) - Make the RPG more accurate. Significantly decrease the twisting and spiraling that it does. I agree, although I don't want this to become so accurate as to be the next noob tube. - Decrease the Stun Grenade's direct impact damage to 15. OR Increase the Flash Grenade, Smoke Grenade, and Frag Grenades direct impact to 40. Agree, I would say standardize the DI damage at 40 - Make the Stun Grenade blow up after 1 second, even if it doesn't hit anything. I don't know about this one, I find the diversity between flashes and stuns to be unique and well thought out. - Make the Helicopter put higher threat on the players with lower score. That's just cruel ;D - Increase the range of the shotguns. - Increase the damage of the W1200 to 50-20. - Increase the damage of the M1014 to 40-10. I would say a range boost or damage boost, not both - Decrease the all of the pistol's raise time. Meh, they're already fast enough. - Make it so you can move when holding fire on claymores. I don't recommended buffing the claymore in this way, as I believe WAW did this. Was not a good change - Increase the R700's damage to 75-70.* - Decrease the R700's range to 250-251.* Two things: 1.R700 replaces the M40 now, and 2. 250-251 range is point blank, did you miss zeros or are you encouraging no scoping? If the m40 (w/normal scope) now had that kind of no scoping bonus well, it wouldn't be pretty. - Increase the G3's damage to 49-35. I concur. - Make it so that when crouched or prone with the M4, the idle amount and sway speed are reduced. - Make the AK-47's damage permanently 40-20. This effectively makes the M4 the new gun of choice, plus you'll see a lot more silenced AK's. In fact all you'll see in the terms of smgs are the AK class weapons - Decrease the USP's range to 350-2500. - Increase the 1911's range to 500-2500. Those ranges are quite large; I don't think you'll be decreasing the effectiveness of the USP too much, plus your leaving the m9 in the dust, and it's already rarely used now. - Make it so when you aim down the sights with a shotgun, the spread doesn't change. Indeed, I agree with these sentiments - Increase the Desert Eagle's headshot multiplier to 1.5. Not sure I agree with this one, there are already a lot of deagles out there. - Increase Sonic Boom's multiplier to 1.4.* I don't think much would change with this one, as only people who spam martyrdom/noob tubes use this perk. Unless it gives an extreme bonus (2.0+) or provide secondary bonuses, the average player will never use this perk. So I hope this isn't too confrontational, as balance should be a discussion and not a dictatorship. I noticed that these changes would specifically help snipers a lot. I can imagine a sniper outfitted with R700, deagle, claymores, SP, and steady aim become the most powerful class call of duty has ever seen. Also, these changes make most AR's obsolete in the face of smgs, shotguns, and snipers. Just a little question here, but what are peoples definition of balance? Mine involves making all weapons, attachments, and perks usable in a competitive setting without being totally outclassed. I just want to know what others hope to achieve through balancing. For example, focusing on balance between weapon classes rather the weapons themselves. Just curious. Edit: Preview button too close to post button...*grumble*
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j1000
True Bro
Posts: 268
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Post by j1000 on Aug 14, 2009 22:35:17 GMT -5
Just a little question here, but what are peoples definition of balance? Mine involves making all weapons, attachments, and perks usable in a competitive setting without being totally outclassed. I agree with most of what you said Including you definition of balance. I'll add that the more weapons you can make useful, the better; achieving balance while having only a handful of weapons to choose from is not the kind of balance I'm interested in.
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Post by robesh on Aug 15, 2009 20:23:17 GMT -5
Whoa, after looking through my list, I see how some stuff would make guns obsolete. I agree that most of the stuff i put on there is kind of crazy, but the asterisks (*) next to some things in the list mean that I don't agree that they would balance the game, but they have been suggested before. I also agree that it would be funny to have the skorpion get steroid bullets, but I think that would be the only thing that would truly balance . I made a typo on the USP and 1911 changes. I meant to only have their maximun damage range changed. So the min damage range would still 1000 for the USP and the 1911 would be incresed to 1000. Having thought of it, I disagree with most of the things about the R700. I would like it if the sway was reduced mostly. I now don't think it should have 75 damage with ACOG and I don't think the damage should be 75-70. My thought on the 75-70 damage and the 250-251 range was to make it so if snipers wanted to noscope but not attach an ACOG, they'd go with R700l. But of course, that is rediculous I don't know what i must have been smoking. My point with the Barrett was to make it a Semi-Auto M40. Barrett would have larger recoil, slower reload, but it would be better for CQB spraying. In our current CoD4, what is the point of the R700 when you have a Barrett? Also, I thought the R700 should have been the anti-juggernaut rifle. The thing with the M16 is that it is overpowered. I have rethought what to do with it, and I think that a RoF decrease would be good. Essentially more time between bursts would be good. The damage decrease wouldn't be nececarry then. I think IW knew that the M16 would either be underpowered, or overpowered. I agree with what they chose to do, as that would make the game less about full-auto spray, more about aim. I would like the AK-74u to have SMG running speed and ADS transition, but that's all it needs. I disagree with what I said about the AK-47. I think that gun is fine. The M4 could use the extra accuracy bonus from lower stances, just because it is outrageously bad for long range. In CoD4, the shotguns are terrible. There isn't much point to one, unless it is used as a humiliation weapon. I thought that increasing range would give them a pourpose (although the range should only be increased by 150 units maximum) and it would make the W1200 more effective. If you have to shoot the target twice, most of the time, then they M1014 is the obvious winner. My point with the chopper was to not punish players for doing the best on their team. Because I hate how the chopper always attacks me. Just kidding, I'm not that good. My definition of balance is that every gun and perk should have its place. They all need their own niche. Balance is not that every weapon is effective in every scenario. Speaking from a range perspective, in order from best at close range to best at long range, the weapons be arragned like this: Shotguns, SMGs, Assault Rifles, LMGs, Sniper Rifles. For example, shotguns would dominate extremely close quarters, while being useless in the long run. Snipers would be the king of long range combat, while they would be a foolish choice for CQB. Assault rifles would be decent at CQC, and they would work for medium-long range. Certain weapons in each class would also look something like this for the SMGs: Mini Uzi, MP5, Skorpion, AK-74u, P90. (I know that's not how it actually like that, but let's pretend.) The Mini-Uzi would beat other SMG's at close range, while being cannon fodder for Assault Rifles. The P90 would be a psuedo AR, while not being as good as the other SMGs for CQC. The problem with balancing individual weapons is that you would create "weapon clones", where they would all be so similar it wouldn't matter which one you used. It is better to balance weapons based on weapon class. I also don't want to come off as mean, so, forgive me for being a bit rash.
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Post by nogert on Aug 15, 2009 22:34:00 GMT -5
I also don't want to come off as mean, so, forgive me for being a bit rash. Hooray, someone nice on the internet! I tend to always start my posts with the whole non-confrontational thing because I've found its quite easy to piss someone off on the internet, especially regarding balance for games. You didn't do anything remotely mean, and I apologize for generalizing you into that catagory. Anyway... So how do you feel about my changes to the M16? Do you think that would be a suitable enough buff? My main gripe with the M16 is that it can be used very easily at long range, while also having shotgun-esque properties as well. By reducing damage to 35, not only is the use of something other than stopping power encouraged, but also removes the possibility of 2 hit kills. If I were to order the smgs by range, I would say: Skorpion,Mini-Uzi,Mp5,P90,74 Skorpion first because the round it fires is the smallest of the class (It was chambered for many rounds, although the largest it got was the 9mm, the same used by the m9,Mini-Uzi, and Mp5. However, they don't share ammo in game, so I assume the ingame model fires a smaller round.) Next comes the Mini-Uzi. With its fast rate of fire, CQB performance surpasses the mp5, although accuracy and range suffers. Then comes the Mp5. Pretty much a Mini-Uzi with a longer barrel and a smaller fire rate. The P90 comes next because it features a bullpup design and fires a longer but not as wide round as the Mp5. The Ak74 comes last because it fires an even longer round than the P90, and quite frankly should be under the Assault rifle catagory Sniper-wise, I would like the R700 to become the now Barrett (with standard idle and reguilar damage), while the Barrett becomes the Anti-Jug weapon with large amounts of idle. It makes more sense to me this way. The problem with shotguns is that they either dominate the sub-machine gun class or get eclipsed by them. They are both competing for the same prize. It is hard to make both of them viable at the same time, as the only thing the smgs are distinctly better at is the longer ranges. However, at those ranges they get destroyed by other weapons, but if you make them too good at those longer ranges, AR's would become obsolete considering most of the maps are quite small. A little question: With which medium do you play the game on? I play on the 360, so the M16's power is exaggerated, along with the Mp5 (due to sway being harder to deal with on consoles). This makes me biased in that direction, so I try to keep my personal opinions in check, however invariably it will slip through. Therefore, I find it necessary to have others critique my thoughts. If we both play on consoles, then our opinions must be checked by a PC player in all fairness. This brings up my next point. Why are we discussing this? It's not like someone is going to create a balance mod. And if they did they wouldn't really consult people like us, but rather the pros of the industry. So...yeah.
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Post by robesh on Aug 16, 2009 2:08:47 GMT -5
I play on Xbox 360, so I too wish the M16 would get nerfed.
I like you're ideas on SMG range.
I agree about the Barrett having more idle.
I see what you mean on shotguns. It is the same thing with the M16. It either dominates, or becomes the worst gun in its class. I would rather the shotguns be how they are, but a damage upgrade would be nice, or maybe more pellets.
The M16 would be tough to balance. I like your idea of the damage reduction, it makes it so you have to get 3 bullets to kill a non-jug without stopping power, and stopping power would make it able to kill jug in 3 shots, but you wouldn't be able to kill a regular player with 2 shots. Off-topic, the M16 shouldn't have the ridiculously fast raise/drop time. It takes less time to take out/put away an M16 than it does with a pistol.
And yes, there is no point to discussing this. It's just fun to imagine what balanced CoD4 would be. It would be a miracle if IW came on here and took some of this into consideration. At least the thing about range balance in and out of the different classes of weapons.
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