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Post by chyros on Aug 26, 2009 20:19:38 GMT -5
Den, if Juggernaut multiplies damage by 0,75, then 20 damage gets reduced to 15; how does this increase the amount of times you need to hit by with any weapon by ONE?
Am I correct in assuming it would actually take SEVEN hits instead of the normal five to kill any player with any submachine gun, most pistols, the G36c or M4 if the enemy has Juggernaut?
Also, Den, on a completely unrelated note: what country are you from?
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Den
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Post by Den on Aug 26, 2009 20:25:04 GMT -5
Only if the shooter isn't using Stopping Power.
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Post by chyros on Aug 26, 2009 20:38:35 GMT -5
But it is correct?
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Post by imrlybord7 on Aug 26, 2009 20:49:52 GMT -5
It is correct, but keep in mind you have to be at minimum damage range (or close to it) and not using Stopping Power.
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Post by ssog on Aug 26, 2009 23:49:42 GMT -5
There are situations on the extreme edges where Jugg increases the number of shots to kill by 2. There are also situations on the extreme edges where Jugg increases the number of shots to kill by 0 (for instance, M21 to the chest). In about 90-95% of situations, Juggernaut just means one extra bullet.
Heck, if you wanted to get really silly, Juggernaut could in theory increase the number of shots required to kill by as much as 20-50 (if you're firing at someone through a wall and the damage is ridiculously decayed by the time it hits).
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Post by chyros on Aug 27, 2009 1:20:20 GMT -5
So, a Skorpion user can empty his entire magazine into someone with Juggernaut and Last Stand, and even if all shots are direct hits, NOT KILL HIM BY THE TIME HIS MAG IS EMPTY.
Well, that's bloody brilliant.
EDIT: in fact, that's even worse than what that line on Den's chart says about "if you use "a whole magazine" to kill one guy, it isn't because of Juggernaut." because in fact you can and not even kill him :/ .
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iKONIG
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Post by iKONIG on Aug 27, 2009 4:42:24 GMT -5
He's gotta point there.
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Den
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Post by Den on Aug 27, 2009 6:31:27 GMT -5
Skorpion: 20 rounds
Juggernaut: 7 shots
Last Stand: 1 shot (or zero if you just leave him)
Shooter probably has Stopping Power: 5 shots
Remaining magazine: 15 to 12 shots.
Huh.
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Post by chyros on Aug 27, 2009 7:31:48 GMT -5
0,07 + (13 x 0,07) < 1 so you will have the mag empty before his invulnerability wears off, ergo you will not kill him even with a full magazine, right?
And leaving a guy in Last Stand is almost never an option since people WILL steal your kill - for what insane reason IW made this so it is only possible to guess at.
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j1000
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Post by j1000 on Aug 27, 2009 9:10:26 GMT -5
0,07 + (13 x 0,07) < 1 so you will have the mag empty before his invulnerability wears off, ergo you will not kill him even with a full magazine, right? And leaving a guy in Last Stand is almost never an option since people WILL steal your kill - for what insane reason IW made this so it is only possible to guess at. Why are you using the Skorpion?  |
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Den
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Post by Den on Aug 27, 2009 10:07:36 GMT -5
The Last Stand transition has nothing to do with Juggernaut.
Why would you keep shooting anyway? Counting five hits isn't spectacularly difficult.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Aug 27, 2009 10:40:03 GMT -5
And leaving a guy in Last Stand is almost never an option since people WILL steal your kill - for what insane reason IW made this so it is only possible to guess at. Wait, what? Are you saying that people shouldn't be able to kill enemies who are in Last Stand if they weren't the one to put them into Last Stand? That's extremely stupid. |
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mdnl
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Post by mdnl on Aug 27, 2009 10:44:29 GMT -5
And leaving a guy in Last Stand is almost never an option since people WILL steal your kill - for what insane reason IW made this so it is only possible to guess at. Wait, what? Are you saying that people shouldn't be able to kill enemies who are in Last Stand if they weren't the one to put them into Last Stand? That's extremely stupid. Then you need to make people who didn't put him into last stand invincible to his bullets. No, it wouldn't work. What would work would be that the person who puts someone into last stand gets a +10 and a kill and anyone who nicks in and steals a kill gets a +2 and an assist. This will stop people from being so quick to steal your last stand kill and will be much fairer all round. |
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Post by chyros on Aug 27, 2009 13:27:59 GMT -5
The Last Stand transition has nothing to do with Juggernaut. No, I mean the amount of bullets extra that Juggernaut absorbs is enough to leave you few few enough bullets to not last you longer than the LS invulnerability time, right? Even if not an everyday situation I'm trying to make a good sketch of just how well you CAN empty (almost) an entire mag into someone to kill them. |
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Post by imrlybord7 on Aug 27, 2009 14:40:23 GMT -5
Few people use Juggernaut. Few people use Last Stand. Very few people use both. (target)
Few people use the Skorpion. Very few people use the Skorpion without Stopping Power. (shooter)
If you can aim you will pretty much never have to empty a "whole mag" into someone to kill them.
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Post by chyros on Aug 28, 2009 10:15:22 GMT -5
Few people use Juggernaut. Few people use Last Stand. Very few people use both. (target) Few people use the Skorpion. Very few people use the Skorpion without Stopping Power. (shooter) If you can aim you will pretty much never have to empty a "whole mag" into someone to kill them. I think you completely missed the point there. By the way, quite a few juggernauts have Last Stand as well and tbh jugger isn't really worth it without Last Stand anyway. |
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Post by imrlybord7 on Aug 28, 2009 12:13:40 GMT -5
Stupid post is stupid. Last Stand is an awful perk regardless of setup, Juggernaut is not.
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Post by ssog on Aug 30, 2009 14:34:31 GMT -5
No, I mean the amount of bullets extra that Juggernaut absorbs is enough to leave you few few enough bullets to not last you longer than the LS invulnerability time, right? Even if not an everyday situation I'm trying to make a good sketch of just how well you CAN empty (almost) an entire mag into someone to kill them. That has nothing to do with Jugg. You could just as easily burn through an entire mag if the opponent just had LS. The lesson here is to not shoot at enemies who are invulnerable because you'll run out of bullets before you kill them... since they're invulnerable and all. Stupid post is stupid. Last Stand is an awful perk regardless of setup, Juggernaut is not. Why the Last Stand hate? In SC, it's probably the best Perk3 for anyone who's not sprinting, hip-firing, or wall-banging (snipers, shotguns and SMGs in non-objective gametypes, and especially LMGs in levels without good penetrable surfaces). In HC, it's arguably the best perk3, period, end of discussion, since the DEagle is better than some primary weapons. |
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Post by imrlybord7 on Aug 30, 2009 23:37:03 GMT -5
In HC you can do considerably more with DI (turns walls into swiss cheese), ExCon (moving quickly is horribly underrated, getting behind a whole team is the kind of thing that will lead to you going 134 and 38 and in a 10 v 10, 30 minute HC TDM on Crossfire), or Dead Silence (move quickly and remain undetected, pretty much a necessity in Search and still very useful against skilled opponents in other gametypes). If you actually think all of those are worth less than having 10 seconds on the ground with your pistol, you need to SERIOUSLY reevaluate the way you play.
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Post by chyros on Aug 31, 2009 19:34:38 GMT -5
No, I mean the amount of bullets extra that Juggernaut absorbs is enough to leave you few few enough bullets to not last you longer than the LS invulnerability time, right? Even if not an everyday situation I'm trying to make a good sketch of just how well you CAN empty (almost) an entire mag into someone to kill them. That has nothing to do with Jugg. You could just as easily burn through an entire mag if the opponent just had LS. The lesson here is to not shoot at enemies who are invulnerable because you'll run out of bullets before you kill them... since they're invulnerable and all. Yes, naturally I'd have to wait until cheat mode wears off for all my enemies before I kill them  . And Jugger is just the few extra hits needed to burn through the ENTIRE mag, without it you could still kill the guy in theory. In theory. |
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Post by ssog on Sept 1, 2009 14:21:06 GMT -5
In HC you can do considerably more with DI (turns walls into swiss cheese), ExCon (moving quickly is horribly underrated, getting behind a whole team is the kind of thing that will lead to you going 134 and 38 and in a 10 v 10, 30 minute HC TDM on Crossfire), or Dead Silence (move quickly and remain undetected, pretty much a necessity in Search and still very useful against skilled opponents in other gametypes). If you actually think all of those are worth less than having 10 seconds on the ground with your pistol, you need to SERIOUSLY reevaluate the way you play. DI's only worth it in HC if you're running an LMG, or if you're a religious wallbanger with an AK. It's not worth much on guns with small penetration (all non-AK SMGs, Shotguns) or semi-auto guns (M16, G3, M14). I'd also say it's not worth it on the G36c or the M4- if you want to wallbang, switch to one of the AKs. Also, on many maps, DI ranges from completely worthless to almost completely worthless (Bloc, Bog, Broadcast, Wet Work, District, Ambush, Creek, Pipeline, Showdown- about half the maps). Extreme Conditioning is only worth it if you're moving around a lot, which pretty much rules out all sniper rifles, LMGs, and campers. Dead silence is absolutely worthless unless (a) the other team actually listens to in-game noise (exceedingly rare in a public match, outside of S&D), and (b) you can't just crouch-walk or ADS-walk for some reason. As for Last Stand... the moment of invulnerability means I get an instakill if my sights are on an enemy when he kills me. After that, I have 10 seconds on the ground with a 1-shot kill laser with unlimited range. In addition, Last Stand is the only chance you have of getting an air strike or a helicopter if you get killed at 4 or 6 kills. Great for snipers, campers, or AR users who are trying something other than flanking. I keep it on my M4 and my Dragunov classes. My SMG class gets Extreme Conditioning, my M249 class gets Steady Aim, and I always keep an RPD with Grip + Stopping Power + Deep Impact for those times when I want to be a wall-banging bastard (read: for Vacant, Countdown, and Killhouse). |
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Post by mw0swedeking on Oct 31, 2009 14:24:56 GMT -5
Why???!?!! Last Stand on snipers! It absolutely drives me crazy!!!!! Or Martyrdom? Why on a sniper, you should not be right next to someone if you're sniping even if you're using an ACOG!
And If you want another way Jugg can use up almost an entire clip of hits....
R700. You hit him once, Juggernaut. You hit him again, Last Stand. You hit him again, he's dead. You've used up all your shots but one! If you want to make up a situation where you lose all your shots, it's not hard to imagine a miss, or hitting him during the transition to LS, or an attempt to no scope your first shot because thats totally your thing. Or he Last Standed behind an object and you tried to hit him through it before moving up to hit him with your last shot. But all these are not due entirely to juggernaut. The real way Jugg can make you use an entire "clip" is...
R700. You hit him once, Juggernaut. You hit him again, Last Stand. You're so pissed off at him that you take a random shot before killing him (or after), and voila! Jugg used all the shots you can w/o a reload! Sorta, it's really the combination of jugg and LS, but this is as close as I can get.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Oct 31, 2009 17:11:55 GMT -5
Why???!?!! Last Stand on snipers! It absolutely drives me crazy!!!!! Or Martyrdom? Why on a sniper, you should not be right next to someone if you're sniping even if you're using an ACOG! And If you want another way Jugg can use up almost an entire clip of hits.... R700. You hit him once, Juggernaut. You hit him again, Last Stand. You hit him again, he's dead. You've used up all your shots but one! If you want to make up a situation where you lose all your shots, it's not hard to imagine a miss, or hitting him during the transition to LS, or an attempt to no scope your first shot because thats totally your thing. Or he Last Standed behind an object and you tried to hit him through it before moving up to hit him with your last shot. But all these are not due entirely to juggernaut. The real way Jugg can make you use an entire "clip" is... R700. You hit him once, Juggernaut. You hit him again, Last Stand. You're so pissed off at him that you take a random shot before killing him (or after), and voila! Jugg used all the shots you can w/o a reload! Sorta, it's really the combination of jugg and LS, but this is as close as I can get. R700 is one shot kill on juggernauts everywhere above the stomach. |
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Post by mw0swedeking on Nov 8, 2009 22:33:47 GMT -5
oh, well poop. I clearly don't use the R700 much.
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xeros612
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Post by xeros612 on Nov 16, 2009 14:01:10 GMT -5
R700 is one shot kill on juggernauts everywhere above the stomach. Sans any sort of lag causing the hit to not register according to the host, of course(Console P2P connections, of course). But when it does register properly, this, the Dragunov, and the Barrett all pull it off. |
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. And Jugger is just the few extra hits needed to burn through the ENTIRE mag, without it you could still kill the guy in theory. In theory.
