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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 8, 2012 14:53:39 GMT -5
I think better players tend to gravitate to Engi for several reasons. I think you should know my background - I have stated it before but just in case readers don't lurk/are new. I played exclusively on XBOX for Bad Company 2. Never played BC1 except for the XBL demo. There, I played a LOT of engineer class and some aggressive recon at the end. Now that I have switched to PC, I tend to use recon and engi a lot in vehicle-centric maps, and mix it up with a silenced LMG and C4 on wide open maps with flank routes. My observations: In BC2 with the mighty AT-4 wire-guided launcher (that doesn't really exist IRL, much to my sadface) the engineer could reliably project vehicle damage out to unbelievable ranges. Engineers were great counters to vehicles, especially helicopters and transport vehicles. If engi's teamed up, tanks would fall very fast. Combined with good, not great guns, with some standouts like the UMP and the 9A-91 which had respectable long range plus amazing close range capacity, or the Uzi, which was decidedly a long-range tool, the engi could operate in a variety of situations comfortably. I noticed that the longer armor survived, the less chance our team would have against the opposing team. Knowing this, I would aggressively flank and take out enemy armor quickly on foot, so I could play to my infantry v. infantry strengths. As I became better at flanking, I noticed that C4 was a much better tool to take out enemy tanks, and motion balls became a great way to make sure flanks were uncovered. On tank-centric maps, such as Harvest Day, Atacama Desert, and the like, I loved playing recon, especially with the silenced VSS and SVU, as those weapons helped keep me off radar and out of sight. I see BF3 coming to PC in a much improved version over the consoles, so I splurge on a new rig. My PC FPS skills were close to non-existent (some CS:S on my brother's account), so I knew it was going to be a tough transition. I started out using engi, thinking that I could step in right away on 64 man servers and start scoring like a beast. Well, it turns out that with the precision of the KBM combo and the new shiny tools that tank drivers got, RPG's did not work nearly as well, and C4 was shaky at best (PC players have more FOV, the ability to react quickly, and seem to use radar and an engineer buddy to make quick work out of my solo engi playstyle), so tanks ended up owning my shizznit. Sad, I switched to more infantry-friendly conquest, some rush, etc. and used the other kits, where I found my love for forward recon play. I have taken a break from that playstyle currently, to get 100 kills with all primaries, but I think that my PDW/shotgun/SKS play is still very fun. Unfortunately, I have to ignore enemy armor. When I did this, I realized that on PC, a close group of teammates, using communication, can utterly wreck even a 32 player opposition with 2 units of armor due to deadlier vehicles, vehicle health recovery, and the like. I still feel so naked when I play a class like Assault or Recon who has NO tools against armor. I switch to engi for awhile when I know that the team will bring the house and try to go for big streaks/shutdown routes key to winning. Eventually, I break down and switch just because of the domination they are putting on me, and I usually play the rest of the night with that kit because after settling into a recoil pattern for your fav weapon, it's hard to give it up. TL;DR/Conclusion - Playing as an Engineer will give you great, easy tools to distrupt highly effective enemy armor strategies, so older players tend to "settle in" to a class that will always be semi-useful or better, even when the situation doesn't call for engineers.Now I have to get 100 kills with each sniper rifle (only one I have is the SKS). Gag. Then shotguns, which may be better. |
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 8, 2012 16:50:30 GMT -5
Rax, very funny Bro. Sadface. What about the recon kit do you feel needs juice? Granted, I know you and I only roll with PDW's and shotguns, but I always do pretty well with them, and having the MAV/TUG-S is like delicious gravy on top of my mashed potatoes. Besides, the wrong type of buff and we'd be seeing even more idiot wookies  Would be 60% recon on every server. Speaking of class mix, what is everyone's infatuation with the engineer kit? . Recon buffs: this is painting with a somewhat broad brush, but basically all guns (compared to BC2) got better, especially up close. 4 bullet kills etc. Sniper rifles didn't just not improve, they're actually worse. I'd like to see all-body OHK like BC2. This would be a nice big buff, but it would also not help the lamewad hillsnipers one tiny bit. Infact, it would make recon a more viable all-over kit. Gadgets-wise, tugs/mav/soflam are fine (although at least make the soflam give the pathetic amount of points it does give consistently. Only got the 30 desi points like twice. ideally 50/50 w/jav user: it's harder to soflam than to javelin). (also maybe 2 tugs possible with resupply?) Spawn beacon - it's great and powerful etc, but it diminishes as your squad improves. It's weakened by teamplay pretty much. Solo, it's amazing and lets you be on a terrible team without wanting to die, but with 3 other players who are rarely dead and always in great spots, it's basically worthless, except for the occasionally-good parachute drop (which should be more controllable in some way, yes/no or at least pick facing direction). Imo either 2+ beacons at once (when resupplied), beacon works for team instead of squad, like pocket amtrac, or at least it doesn't go when you respawn. But mostly the guns to be buffed. Beta semi-autos and BC2 close range bolt business plz. SKS I don't even understand, I can't even use the iron sights, have like 3 kills. engineer infat: rudy sums it up pretty well I guess, but I find myself tending to assault if I dont need to go another way |
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Post by fazzmania on Feb 8, 2012 17:45:48 GMT -5
On Engineer: The engineer is the most versatile kit in the game, and will always benefit the team as long as the number of assaults healing/reviving is say, greater than 20% of the team. I've personally never prescribed to the theory that the engineer guns are weaker. Sure, long range it's noticeable but anywhere else player skill is a much more important factor. Case in point; battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/battlereport/show/20280962/1/227514966/ (48-9 Caspian 64P CQ with the M4A1 ironsight). I frequently pick people off from huge ranges with my rockets. Your average pub will never be properly effective with rockets, and that's where the difference between a bad and a skilled engineer is perhaps the most significant. In the case of a bad player, assault is great because it's incredibly easy to do effectively. There's not much skill involved in placing medpacks and playing whack-a-mole with your paddles. I disagree that most skilled players gravitate toward engi. I spend a LOT of time lurking people's profiles (I like to try and figure out if anyone has a good setup I can requisition. To me it seems like a lot of the 500/600/700+ SPM players have assault as their most played. On Recon: I've been playing aggressive marks the last few days and honestly, it's been a total blast. I never realized sniping had this much power. I'm using the M98b with an 8x scope, bolt, a g18 and TUGS. Basically I play the objective hard and get a ton of kills doing it. I found that over a period of 2 days using the sniper at close-mid range was a breeze. My M98b accuracy jumped to 41.5% even though I was taking almost all of my shots on moving targets. I got so many incredible kills I wish I'd recorded, dragshots, a couple of nice railguns (It's a heck of a lot harder than COD but feels so satisfying to pull off), a bunch of noscope headshots, a few collaterals etc. What all of this made me realize is that the average recon player is REALLY garbage. I mean, people are gosh darn golly gee whized terrible at this game anyway, but generally if you hesitate a second in front of an assault or engi you'll die regardless of his skill level. When I vsed other recons, at any range, my kill rate was about 90%. When I snipe it looks like Micheal J Fox is using my keyboard, I never stop moving except for quick moments where I need ranged stability. This makes it really easy for me to avoid being shot in the head by an enemy sniper. Somehow this has yet to get through to the recon community yet. Probably only 5% of the snipers I vsed strafed properly, and the rest were easy kills. And don't get me started on TUGS/MAV use. It seems ridiculous that only a small percentage of recons actually drop their TUGS/MAV, but it's the truth. The amount of snipers I knifed because they were wookieing on a hill with a bipod and 12x scope, and no tugs... BC2 players may recall that that a lot of good players had shifted to using recon in the later patches. In my clan, most of the players ran recon most of the time, some of them were dragshooters, others used slug shotguns. but the strength of the class was in the gadgets. The motion scanner is amazing, and the tugs is almost as good, if not better in a lot of situations. It was only towards the end of the game's life cycle that people really started to abuse the recon's strengths. Perhaps that same thing will happen here. I don't know what the chest 1hk change will do to the recon population, but the point is recon is actually in really good shaping assuming you can aim. I'm amazed at how quickly I adapted to playing the style, I used to struggle at mid range but now I can quickly spin and nail a snap headshot on an engi/assault who's suppressing/hitting me. Essesncially what I'm saying is for the average pub player recon is fairly weak, but in the hands of someone a little better it can really come online. I havn't seen anyone at all running a similar style in games I've been in, though there is some crazy dragshooting on youtube. I'd recommend anyone with decent aim and reflexes to give it a try for a few days. I think you'll be surprised how good it is. P.S if you're going to camp this set is crap. This is a roaming set. Abuse the TUGS. Abuse the spawn beacon. Get used to using your sidearm a lot (I use the G18 so I have no problem dispatching carbine/AR users if they get up in my face). Here's the video that inspired me, this guy is just insane at dragshooting but he's been doing it for years. |
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Post by didjeridu on Feb 8, 2012 18:18:18 GMT -5
I loved Engi in BC2 for the AT4 alone. Hands down the best tool versus air, highest damage versus vehicles, great for "counter-sniping" wookies, it has it all. You can even shoot at a tank head on, yet still pull off a side armor hit. Same thing goes for side shots and rear hits. I love it. Recons were also great with their drop dead sexy motion balls. Add to it good shotguns (with or without super sniper slugs) and C4, and you have a good time on your hands. I love being a medic and using ARs/LMGs, but it just wasn't as fun when compared to the awesomeness of the Engi and Recon.
Now it's the other way around. Javelins suck. Either they're wimpy or miss the target completely, or they hand you free kills. There's no middle ground, and there's no satisfaction either way. Stinger/IGLA are completely useless. RPG/SMAW are pretty weak considering all the toys tanks have now. Recons need no explanation. I only enjoy myself as Assault and Support. They have the weapons I love, and the support options I like to use. I'll play Engi and Recon when necessary, but luckily there are plenty of them, so it's not necessary often. If it wasn't for Engi needing next to no experience to get service stars, it would be behind just as much as Recon for me.
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 8, 2012 19:43:31 GMT -5
Yeah I'm thinking now, like you alluded to, towards the end of BC2 I was recon almost all the time with either slug 870 or an M95, and with the shotgun especially it's all headshots all the time, as that thing is surprisingly turd up close, and having to do that didn't seem to stumble me too much. Have to admit I just haven't really given it a go. One game on Metro rush I used an M98b with no scope, did fine and it was a blast to use tbh.
Engineer guns on infantry maps: infantry maps are small. hipfire advantage really pays off. if you're "dynamic" they're at worst second best gun class. and yeah, gun doesn't come in to it half the time anyway.
I guess I'll give it a spin in a couple of minutes. I've been playing quite a lot of recon lately and I'm p tired4life of p90 and 870 (j/k about 870 I'll never get tired). Wouldn't hate an acog for the m98b tho, have much dislike for strong scopes regardless of how far away I'm shooting.
Also mad jealous of conquest players and their wild high SPMs.
ps this post sucks
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 8, 2012 23:03:11 GMT -5
^agree that the post sucks  JK Close quarters, the F2000/FAMAS/AEK competes with/beats M4A1 and A-91 in practicality and lethality (subjective measures). The engi guns are unimpressive, like BC2. They just are very situational - (A-91 is amazing in close encounters, but gets beat by half of the assault rifles in similar hands at 15m+ M4A1 is similar to the M16A3, but worse in every way, except slight adv. in hipfire... nothing else to speak of in the kit. It's pretty depressing. As to the point of 500-700 SPM people, they are the ones doing Metro all of the time, and Metro doesn't have vehicles, thus the Assault kit rewards them the most. (PS I am guilty of playing metro too much) |
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Post by fazzmania on Feb 8, 2012 23:22:58 GMT -5
The brilliance of the 8x scope is flexibility. Since the m98b bullet drop isn't much, you can easily battle other snipers. It's perfect for mid range. Close range obviously an acog will be better but once you get used to snap shooting it's no big deal. What the 8x means is if I see someone running a long distance between cover, they're dead, except at extreme range. It's incredibly easy to strike a moving target with the 8x and the fast projective speed, you don't even have to go for head-shots as doing a double tap barely takes any time at all.
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Post by fazzmania on Feb 8, 2012 23:32:17 GMT -5
Close quarters, the F2000/FAMAS/AEK competes with/beats M4A1 and A-91 in practicality and lethality (subjective measures). The engi guns are unimpressive, like BC2. They just are very situational - (A-91 is amazing in close encounters, but gets beat by half of the assault rifles in similar hands at 15m+ M4A1 is similar to the M16A3, but worse in every way, except slight adv. in hipfire... nothing else to speak of in the kit. It's pretty depressing. Don't know what game you're playing, but if I do just as well with a carbine as I do with assault rifles. Naturally rifles a bit more suited to extreme ranges, but it's negligable. Depressing is an overstatement, but I don't know what your skill level is so it's hard to say. Most people struggle to use even the strongest guns effectively, that isn't a balance problem *Shrugs* ^agree that the post sucks As to the point of 500-700 SPM people, they are the ones doing Metro all of the time, and Metro doesn't have vehicles, thus the Assault kit rewards them the most. (PS I am guilty of playing metro too much) That's not true. While Metro does tend to bias scores upwards, I know a huge amount of people with 500-1000 legit SPMs who don't play Metro. In my opinion, Metro24/7 servers are one of the various cancers killing battlefield. The difference between a good and bad player in this game is astronomical, I have a friend who no longer plays who maintained 950 SPM and a 7.2 KDR (He just drove the tank almost every single game). I personally have 530 something, which is not amazing but much better than the global average which is about 250. |
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 9, 2012 6:21:05 GMT -5
Yeah from the couple of dozen logs I've looked at, big SPMs are due to vehicles, with the odd ridiculous thing (eg, only plays metro rush defence, only plays grand beezy conquest etc)
Anyway, used the m98b a little last night, with 8x, playing broadly how I play normal kits. Didn't get much playtime + I was mad tired, but did have a nice opening on Kharg Island Rush where I went 17-0 and got both of the first bases 'single-handedly' (inverted commas because there was a chopper up for the outdoors base, so I only really did the walking). I did fade a lot though (think I finished 20-3 and barely got my mcom attacker ribbon), I'm guessing because I didn't manage to replicate my mad positional advantage of 1st base (they'd pushed up the beach and were basically spawntactical loitering us, so once I got out into MCom zone, just shot everyone in the back then glocked all the respawners. Tugs makes solo plants mundane.
But yeah after that it was pretty pedestrian, I was just in amongst everyone and didn't really feel I was getting anything done. Guess it's my bad and I should have grabbed a car or w/e.
Anyway, it's fun to use bolt actions, it turns out. Fazz - do you use straight pull bolt? I never use bolt actions so I haven't unlocked it for any of the guns yet. 8x scope isn't so bad.
Carbines: yeah idk. I'm awful with all guns and basically don't know what I'm doing, but carbines don't seem that much worse at the ranges I engage it (like 0-2m, otherwise I miss 100% of my shots)
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 9, 2012 8:40:58 GMT -5
Don't know what game you're playing, but if I do just as well with a carbine as I do with assault rifles. Naturally rifles a bit more suited to extreme ranges, but it's negligable. Depressing is an overstatement, but I don't know what your skill level is so it's hard to say. Most people struggle to use even the strongest guns effectively, that isn't a balance problem *Shrugs* Some guns work for some people, especially if those people can consistently dictate range through flanking and anticipating enemy movements. However, taking a look at the stats and my personal experience, if you could use the M16A3, or the AEK/F2K/FAMAS on the engineer kit, why wouldn't you? It wouldn't make sense not to. Better long range damage, less recoil, and equal hipfire (except for the A-91 standout case).  |
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Post by fazzmania on Feb 9, 2012 9:37:04 GMT -5
Yeah from the couple of dozen logs I've looked at, big SPMs are due to vehicles, with the odd ridiculous thing (eg, only plays metro rush defence, only plays grand beezy conquest etc) Anyway, used the m98b a little last night, with 8x, playing broadly how I play normal kits. Didn't get much playtime + I was mad tired, but did have a nice opening on Kharg Island Rush where I went 17-0 and got both of the first bases 'single-handedly' (inverted commas because there was a chopper up for the outdoors base, so I only really did the walking). I did fade a lot though (think I finished 20-3 and barely got my mcom attacker ribbon), I'm guessing because I didn't manage to replicate my mad positional advantage of 1st base (they'd pushed up the beach and were basically spawntactical loitering us, so once I got out into MCom zone, just shot everyone in the back then glocked all the respawners. Tugs makes solo plants mundane. But yeah after that it was pretty pedestrian, I was just in amongst everyone and didn't really feel I was getting anything done. Guess it's my bad and I should have grabbed a car or w/e. Anyway, it's fun to use bolt actions, it turns out. Fazz - do you use straight pull bolt? I never use bolt actions so I haven't unlocked it for any of the guns yet. 8x scope isn't so bad. Carbines: yeah idk. I'm awful with all guns and basically don't know what I'm doing, but carbines don't seem that much worse at the ranges I engage it (like 0-2m, otherwise I miss 100% of my shots) Yeah the straight pull bolt makes a fairly significant difference. if you're just popping in and out of cover making snap shots it's not really needed but if you're trying to kill running targets at medium-long range it's great. Or just any situation where you know it's safe to say scoped in and you see a bunch of enemies, then you can just pump the shots out. |
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Post by rubionubio on Feb 9, 2012 10:15:54 GMT -5
Some guns work for some people, especially if those people can consistently dictate range through flanking and anticipating enemy movements. However, taking a look at the stats and my personal experience, if you could use the M16A3, or the AEK/F2K/FAMAS on the engineer kit, why wouldn't you? It wouldn't make sense not to. Better long range damage, less recoil, and equal hipfire (except for the A-91 standout case). I'm definitely a little bit of a weirdo when it comes to the engineer class, because I use the QBZ almost exclusively. If I must roll engineer I take that gun most of the time because - in my hands - it feels the most like an assault rifle, and because of it's unique attachment scheme I feel free to take the HBar (which rocks on that gun by the way) since the grip isn't an option, which makes me a big threat at long range, sort of blurring the line between carbine and assault rifle. I know a lot of people hate it, but I really like the gun. It has no reason statistically to be good, but I do very well with it... Which just reinforces the fact that while gun stats matter, it's a difference of minutiae, and the really differentiating factor is personal preference. |
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 9, 2012 10:47:59 GMT -5
[ I'm definitely a little bit of a weirdo when it comes to the engineer class, because I use the QBZ almost exclusively. If I must roll engineer I take that gun most of the time because - in my hands - it feels the most like an assault rifle, and because of it's unique attachment scheme I feel free to take the HBar (which rocks on that gun by the way) since the grip isn't an option, which makes me a big threat at long range, sort of blurring the line between carbine and assault rifle. I know a lot of people hate it, but I really like the gun. It has no reason statistically to be good, but I do very well with it... Which just reinforces the fact that while gun stats matter, it's a difference of minutiae, and the really differentiating factor is personal preference. Speaking of which... I recently got 100 kills with that weapon. The whole time, I was psyching myself out of it, saying I will enjoy the SG553 so much better when I unlock it, things like that. (Didn't get around to the HBar attachment, have to try it). Once I hit 100 kills and switched, I was struggling mightily with the SG553. TBH, the SG553 may be the worse engi gun as it stands, but still, I guess I was surprised at my semi-effectiveness with the QBZ. It's like the L85 of carbines... to each his own I guess, but I would still greatly prefer the M4A1 in terms of range prowess without HBar. With HBar, I guess I will have to see. |
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Post by rubionubio on Feb 9, 2012 11:44:32 GMT -5
The "thing" with me is that I'm totally, 100%, unequivocally, without-a-doubt, a "groove" or "organic" style gamer. I greatly depend on those intangibles that each gun has in order to do well on it, because - and I'm sure we've all noticed this at one point or another - how well do you in any given round is SO dependent on your state of mind and mental awareness/acuity. Those games - regardless of whether or not it's an esport or football or shooting - where you just are "in the zone". That feeling for me is often dictated by semi-retarded factors like the way the gun I'm using sounds or looks or the reload animation or any number of other idiot factors. The QBZ for instance has a firing sound that I really like and I like that no one uses it.
So that's why I like the guns I like... Which is sort of new for me, previously in all FPS games I was 100% the opposite, just using whatever was "best" on paper and trying to muscle or force it into my playstyle. Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole gets lame after a while, so I'm much happier now that I've embraced my inner interior decorator/fashion designer/audio engineer and roll with the loadout that just "feels" right to me.
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Post by didjeridu on Feb 9, 2012 13:14:18 GMT -5
I have 500 SPM, and I don't play Metro or whore vehicles! /shamefulbragging
Although I basically just hurl myself at objectives and die a lot, getting a lot of points in a short lifespan.
I like weapons for aesthetics really. I'll only use a weapon I think looks nice. Luckily that's a pretty big category, so I can still pick weapons that are actually good. I lean towards weapons with high damage. The bigger, the better. AKs, LMGs, and DMRs, oh yeah. I hate wimpy guns that shoot tons of bullets. But overall, I'll use a good variety of weapons. Ultimately, I like to "master" everything rather than have a focus.
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Post by rubionubio on Feb 9, 2012 13:43:04 GMT -5
Only way to play my man! ONCE MORE UNTO THE BREACH DEAR FRIENDS, ONCE MORE
That's what I hear in my head every time I rush headlong into a hail of bullets and explosives, frantically trying to avoid death (very different than trying to stay alive) for as long as possible.
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Post by fazzmania on Feb 9, 2012 17:54:51 GMT -5
I attack a lot of objectives too but I tend to play away from my team, I'm more effective that way. If a flag only has 1-3 defenders I can usually dispatch them myself and it's a great tactic to strike more than one flag at once. So I don't die too often.
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Would be 60% recon on every server. 
