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Post by beavernator on Mar 28, 2012 15:50:35 GMT -5
You are my bro, bro. There's been roughly 4.39 million copies of this game sold, so I'm probably not the only guy thinking this. What does that Rate of Fire stat mean in terms of Rounds Per Minute? I don't have any means of accurately measuring this, so I'm just playing everything by ear. My estimate is that every 0.1 increment translates into a difference of 8 RPM. Does anyone know the exact number? Before anyone asks I did make sure this value was not skewed by other rate of fire modifiers. No shotguns and snipers (which increase in RoF as you level up their proficiencies), class mods, or skills that increase fire rate were factored in.
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Den
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Post by Den on Mar 28, 2012 17:26:46 GMT -5
Rounds Per Second.
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Post by Usagi on Mar 30, 2012 20:18:36 GMT -5
What's the Accuracy stat?
Also I don't understand how accuracy bonuses work. For example a repeater with 80 accuracy, why does a 25% accuracy bonus not make it 100% accurate?
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Den
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Post by Den on Mar 30, 2012 21:00:34 GMT -5
Accuracy is basically: 100 = 0° Cone of fire radius 0 = 10° Cone of fire radius
As for accuracy bonuses - first, anything in the Flavor box is already applied to the numbers above. Second, because the accuracy value is actually an ever-reducing number as it reaches perfect accuracy, everything has to go backwards...
The multiplier is working with smaller numbers, meaning it needs an even greater amount to get even slightly better with the "higher numbers". For example, if the weapon had 50 base Accuracy, a +100% accuracy bonus would move that up to 75 accuracy.
That 200% accuracy is 2x, divide 1 by that number and you get 0.5. That 0.5 goes up against the 5.0° accuracy, cutting it to 2.5. +100% = 200% 200% = 2x = 0.5 50 accuracy = 5.0° 5.0° x 0.5 = 2.5° = 75 Accuracy
Because of that, a weapon with 80 accuracy and a +100 accuracy boost would go to 90 accuracy. But a 90 accuracy weapon would only go to 95%. And 95 to 97.5. And 98 to 99. And 99 to 99.5. And 99.5 to 99.75. And 99.75 to 99.875. And 99.875 to 99.9375. It is mathematically impossible for the weapon to reach true 100% accuracy unless it already had it as a base value.
At least that's how I'm pretty sure it works.
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Post by Usagi on Apr 2, 2012 15:35:11 GMT -5
Wow, reading that in text is pretty confusing, but I think I understand it. I figured that it had to somehow reduce inaccuracy instead of increasing accuracy, if that makes any sense.
One thing I know for sure is that if weapons could be 100% accurate it would break the game in a big way. Aside from the Jakobs Bessie anyway, but it's super rare to compensate and I have yet to find one.
It's a shame that by these calculations Sledge's Shotgun can't be made any more accurate (or accurate at all) because anything times it's 0 base accuracy is still 0.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 4, 2012 1:57:54 GMT -5
I wouldn't say any weapon with perfect accuracy would be OP. In fact the vast majority of weapons in the game seem to have crap DPS, so I don't bother picking them up. Usually I look at DPS first, then accuracy, with exceptions.
For shotguns I only care about damage. I'm not a big fan of full auto AA-12 style shotgunning. I like big loud kill you in 1 shot shotgunning. And I also don't generally care much about accuracy though if I found a really accurate one I'd have to give it a go if the damage was okay.
For snipers I similarly don't pay as much attention to ROF because I rarely fire them at full speed anyway. High damage again is king but only if the accuracy is at least good enough. Most snipers are accurate enough for my uses, though. So I look at damage first. It the damage is lower than what I got it's vender loot regardless of the accuracy.
Perfect accuracy would be OP for shotguns and possibly full auto weapons, but again it would depend on the damage and/or DPS of the weapon. I'm not about to bother with a gun if all it does is give skags a nasty itch. I wants bloody gooey chunks! ;p
But yeah... anyway. I'm just blathering. Really enjoying the General Knoxx DLC thing lately. ;p
Obviously elements are something to consider too, however since I'm playing Roland they aren't as pivotal. My primary weapons aren't great as elementals and just in general I've not been able to find elemental weapons that are as effective as my non elementals... with exceptions. For rockets I favor the elementals as having an AOE elemental trigger seems more useful than the kinda bleh damage I get from non elemental rockets. They also have some utility on snipers for me. I keep hoping for elemental assault rifles worth a damn, but they are all pretty much trash it seems. Ditto for shotguns.
Actually I've been using the same shotgun for what feels like half the game. lol I think it's 167x11 or so and I just haven't found anything that can touch it for killing power. Sure it only holds 2 shells per the specs but with my skills and class mod I actually get like 7 or something so it's no big deal. The accuracy is low but the damage is so good it doesn't matter. Of course I'm only level 42. I'm sure that I'll find better eventually... I'll be kinda sad to see it go, honestly. I've had it longer than any of my other guns and yet it is by far the most effective still. lol Though I actually spend more time sniping dudes than getting in close. I mostly use it for backup and psychos.
mm.... Can't wait to play the sequel!
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Post by Usagi on Apr 11, 2012 0:42:22 GMT -5
I just found a shotgun that is 200x12 and I'm level 43 as Brick. From what I've read on the wiki, shotguns that have 2-round magazines have higher damage than ones with 6 or 12-round magazines.
I highly value accuracy in my weapons. "What good is a gun that doesn't shoot where you point?" High damage, Low accuracy shotguns are only useful for killing skags and Psychos. You'll notice how ridiculous high accuracy shotguns can be, especially if you have level 5 in Rolands shotgun skill (can't remember what it's called right now). Support machine guns and machine pistols are my favorite guns, and accuracy is very important for both of them.
A lot of machine guns have have very poor accuracy, usually in the 60s, and depending on the manufacturer have different DPSs, but all of them make poor weapons. For example, the ones made by SnS typically have slightly better damage and pathetically low fire rates. Combine that with horrendous accuracy and you've got very bad DPS. The ones made by Vladof can have very high fire rates, usually between 10 and 11, and still have pretty good damage, so theoretically it has very good DPS. However, if you take accuracy into account, it has very poor DPS, so keep in mind that accuracy is a very important factor in DPS. I like Atlas machine guns since they strike a good balance between damage, accuracy, fire rate, magazine size, and reload speed, while also performing above average in all of those areas. Shotguns don't depend on accuracy as much because they are used at point blank range, which means that accuracy has virtually no effect on DPS, but you don't want it to be so inaccurate that some of you pellets still miss your target at that range, like Sledge's Shotgun. Accuracy doesn't usually matter much for snipers either because they're all so accurate that it doesn't matter under normal circumstances, unless you're using a Gamble which I wouldn't recommend anyway.
I also prefer to use launchers as my elemental weapons for the AOE, but it's not as effective or efficient as a SMG, machine pistol, or support machine gun with a high fire rate that continuously stacks DOT effects on your enemies. In my experience, revolvers are the best elemental weapons.
I've also got another stat related question for you Den. What about reloads? I noticed that if you have a high enough weapon proficiency, the reload bonus can go above +100%. What gives? I'm guessing that the same kind of logic as the accuracy bonus goes into the reload bonus, since it must use a system that makes it mathematically impossible to have a reload time of 0 seconds or less. Also that weapons with longer reload times benefit more from the reload bonus than weapons with shorter reload times.
And yeah, Borderlands 2 is gonna be schweet. Maybe your GF would be okay with me playing with you two after it comes out. It would be much easier because it's going to use Steam instead of Gamespy.
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Den
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Post by Den on Apr 11, 2012 1:12:04 GMT -5
I've also got another stat related question for you Den. What about reloads? I noticed that if you have a high enough weapon proficiency, the reload bonus can go above +100%. What gives? I'm guessing that the same kind of logic as the accuracy bonus goes into the reload bonus, since it must use a system that makes it mathematically impossible to have a reload time of 0 seconds or less. Yeah, if it is twice as fast, it takes half as long.
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Post by Usagi on Apr 11, 2012 1:16:41 GMT -5
Ah, so it's a bonus to reload speed, not reload time.
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Post by mannon on Apr 11, 2012 15:05:16 GMT -5
I don't personally agree with all of your statements re:accuracy. But I think the reason is differences in play style.
First up is shotguns. Personally I completely ignore DPS and accuracy with regards to shotguns. Well... okay. I don't want an accuracy of zero like Sledge's shotgun, because you miss some pellets even at point blank with that. But that's not really a problem as very few shotguns have zero accuracy and so far the highest damage shotguns I've found were not among them. For me damage is the ultimate stat for shotguns. I don't care as much about how many pellets vs how much damage per pellet as I do how much overall damage, though more pellets is better because it's more consistent and has a higher chance of nailing crits. Personally I don't care if a shotgun has a listed mag size of 2, in fact my current shotgun has a listed mag size of 2. I'm level 42 and I'm fairly certain I've been using this same shotgun for more than ten levels and haven't found anything to replace it. This shotgun just barely won out over my previous shotgun which I had used for probably over half the game. heh Apparently truly high damage shotguns are fairly rare. (Though I did recently pickup a shotgun just slightly worse than mine, and sold it.) I don't care about that mag size because I'm playing Roland with shotguns fully upgraded and I'm using a class mod with +65% mag size. I also don't care at all about fire rate because I don't use shotguns for high DPS, or well... that's not quite true.
My play style with shotguns is the same for Borderlands as it is in MW2. I go for putting as much damage on target at close range as possible and then rely on one shot kills, hit and run tactics, or just plain close quarters circle strafing and jumping nonsense (going "John Woo" if you've seen Jesse Cox's Rage playthrough on youtube). I don't care so much if it takes a fair bit of time between shots because usually I only need one or two and often I'm just popping out of cover to fire and then I'm back behind it. Or I'm just going apeshit in someone's face and making life really difficult for them.
At any rate for borderlands my shotgun is my backup weapon. I usually pick things off at range, but when they do get close it usually ends badly for them as my shotgun is probably the most deadly weapon I have and even then I usually can pop my turret for extra backup and health regen if needed, or just a plain distraction. Psycho's are particularly easy shotgun fodder since all I really gotta do is backpedal and headshot them once.
I love my shotgun. ;3 I'd love to find one that's highly accurate and very nice at range, but I've yet to really find anything worth using instead of my combat rifle at that range and sniper rifle at further range. So I almost always have my shotgun, one of two combat rifles (full auto and a burst), and one of about 4 or 5 snipers though I tend to stick with the highest damage. For my fourth weapon it's sort of the optional slot though usually I've got a rocket launcher for long range AoE and elemental damage, sometimes I run an Erudian weapon or both assault rifles
For snipers I'll agree that the primary stat has to be damage, though elemental snipers can also be quite useful, even if the damage is a bit lower. I do not, however, discount accuracy. I pretty much won't use any sniper rifles with less than 96 accuracy, and I greatly prefer 97, or OMG 98! It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but the key is headshots. If you're fighting at extreme range at some point your target is so distant that you have to make a choice to aim for center mass to make sure you hit the target or aim for the head and risk missing completely for zero effect. Obviously the more distant your target the worse your odds get, but they can get pretty bad. To the point that a perfectly aimed shot can still have 50/50 or greater odds of missing completely. Sniper rifles also get fairly massive criticals, even if you're not playing Mordacai. As long as sniper accuracy is "good enough" I'll generally go with the highest damage gun I can get. But if I have two rifles and one is 1 point more accurate but does 50 less damage... I'll still use it. 50 damage isn't that big a difference, but that 1 point of accuracy means dead on headshots out to a much longer range.
It probably matters less with Mordecai if his skills can boost accuracy. I forget since I haven't played him in quite some time.
PS. We probably won't be getting Borderlands 2 for quite some time because our video cards really aren't up to modern games. Hell her's is integrated... eewww.... After we buy video cards then all bets are off, but that could take a while.
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Post by kirbyderby on Apr 11, 2012 15:33:59 GMT -5
You could buy it for the Xbox 360 and play with me
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Post by beavernator on Apr 11, 2012 15:38:59 GMT -5
Oh... I guess I was over-thinking the whole fire-rate thing after all. Thank you! I guess while I'm on the topic of fire rate, does anyone know how burst-fire weapons work? As far as I can tell I've narrowed it down to two possible answers since I know that the pauses between bursts can be reduced through fire rate bonuses like Roland's Metal Storm: -The pauses between bursts on all burst-fire weapons is equal to 3 times the fire time, even on the only burst-2 weapon in the game (Desert Hornet pistol). This way a burst-3 weapon fires half as many rounds per second as it claims in the fire-rate stat block, and burst-5 weapons fire 62.5% as many rounds as their stat block claims. OR -There is a fixed value across all burst-fire weapons like the 200ms pause on burst-fire weapons in CoD. However, this value can be reduced to (1/1+FR% bonus)% of that value when any sort of fire-rate increase is applied.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 12, 2012 13:34:00 GMT -5
Yeah we might do 360. She is just now getting hers up and going and we're playing Dead Island as her first game to own. (She has played several games in split screen with me.) Given that she even plays Borderlands on PC with a controller (despite being fine with mouse and keyboard for killing floor) xbox might be the way we go for Borderlands 2.
I think she prefers the controller for FPS games for two main reasons:
A. She likes the feel of having a trigger rather than just clicking a mouse button. I can't fault her for that, it is more immersive, even if technically inferior due to the analog nature of the triggers. Mouse buttons are gonna get a few MS faster response time since you don't have to depress the button nearly as far as the trigger before it registers. But meh... hardly a concern in PvE anyway.
B. Her mouse control isn't tight enough to really be far and away better than her thumbstick control. Her mouse up until now has been fairly dodgy, though she has a new one that's better... except it randomly loses the signal or eats the battery or something... We're sorting that out. She also has a small mousepad so not much area to work with, and generally her mousing skill is okay, but not high, due to lack of experience.
As per the stats you might check the Borderlands wiki. Yeah it's a wikia, which I usually avoid like the plague, but they actually do have some pretty good info tucked away in there. I think that they've actually got specifics on the guts of weapon stats there, including how much extra damage you get from elemental effects and such. I had built a spreadsheet on that sort of thing a while back and I think I got all my information from there.
Honestly I wish that game developers would start giving us accurately computed meta stats so we could compare weapons at a glance and know objectively which is better without having to go do tons of math outside the game. In a game like Borderlands where so much of the game is picking up weapons and comparing stats it would be especially useful for those hard to make choices. I don't have time for doing all that so about the closest I'll do is a quick DPS calc. And there's not really enough inventory space to keep a lot of things around to do a more detailed analysis on later either. That's always bothered me.
But then modders rarely even mod such things into games, so apparently mod makers don't value that sort of thing either.
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Post by kirbyderby on Apr 12, 2012 13:52:35 GMT -5
forums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=128325Massive collection of information related to BL2. Hopefully that stuff can answer some of the questions you may have. I can alleviate at least one of your worries, mannon; there will be a gun bank available very early in the game, as well as a stash that allows you to transfer guns between your different character saves.
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Post by Usagi on Apr 13, 2012 7:16:26 GMT -5
there will be a gun bank available very early in the game, as well as a stash that allows you to transfer guns between your different character saves. GIMME GIMME GIMME NOW! There have been way too many times where I will find a redonkulously good weapon as a character that doesn't really use that kind of gun, like finding awesome snipers as Brick and it really pisses me off. I have found so many awesome SMGs and machine pistols that would be so much more useful for a different character. Seeing as the PC version is going to get so much support from Gearbox, I don't think I'm going to get the XBox version. Also I can't aim with analog sticks, it just feels so unnatural for me. Will the console have split-screen? That would be pretty boss.
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Post by kirbyderby on Apr 13, 2012 7:37:32 GMT -5
Consoles will support split-screen online as well (but for some reason, you can't have two pairs of split-screeners in one online game.) PC split-screen is not confirmed, but not denied either. I don't think it's particularly high on their to-to list.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 13, 2012 12:18:25 GMT -5
Borderlands split screen worked pretty well for my GF and I when we first played the game, but it is SOOOO nice having full screen now. heh Particularly for the menues... In split screen the menues were really weird. They were exactly the same as the full screen ones so you had to scroll them around to see the parts you couldn't see. So you could only see about half the inventory screen at a time, and so forth. lol I've never seen a game do that, before.
For most of them it still worked okay. You just couldn't see as much of the list of inventory, quests, ect... Though it did mean scrolling around to see your cash or what's on sale, ect. I hope they cleaned that up, but I'm not really planning to play in split screen now that my GF has both a decent PC (sans video card) and an xbox.
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Post by kirbyderby on Apr 13, 2012 15:04:22 GMT -5
Borderlands split screen worked pretty well for my GF and I when we first played the game, but it is SOOOO nice having full screen now. heh Particularly for the menues... In split screen the menues were really weird. They were exactly the same as the full screen ones so you had to scroll them around to see the parts you couldn't see. So you could only see about half the inventory screen at a time, and so forth. lol I've never seen a game do that, before. For most of them it still worked okay. You just couldn't see as much of the list of inventory, quests, ect... Though it did mean scrolling around to see your cash or what's on sale, ect. I hope they cleaned that up, but I'm not really planning to play in split screen now that my GF has both a decent PC (sans video card) and an xbox. Well, if she has her own Xbox, no problem. I like my big screens too Even so, GBX has stated that they are reworking the menu screens, etc. to better support splitscreen. Definitely a relief to me, because my enjoyment won't be hampered when my sisters want to play with me.
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Usagi
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Post by Usagi on Apr 18, 2012 1:02:28 GMT -5
PC split-screen would be really awkward IMO. Unless you have 2 screens hooked up to your PC, but it would still be a nightmare with setting how the controls work, also putting an even heavier demand on the PC. LAN is just loads easier.
EDIT: I just learned that small drops like ammo, money, and health vials will be picked up automatically when you walk near them. The Collector's Edition looks pretty gosh darn golly gee whiz awesome, too.
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Post by palladium on May 6, 2012 18:43:15 GMT -5
I love the idea of the stash, saves me the trouble of going split screen to transfer a gun to an intermediary character when i find something I want to keep but not for that character.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 7, 2012 14:12:27 GMT -5
Nothing hurts more than selling a good gun just because you need the space...
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Post by kirbyderby on May 7, 2012 14:27:01 GMT -5
I actually created an extra xbox profile with a bunch of fresh characters to store my extra-cool-but-useless crap.
I'll miss coming up with so many silly names for them, but overall I'd say the new system is an improvement.
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Usagi
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Post by Usagi on May 12, 2012 1:23:37 GMT -5
I always sold my Eridian weapons after I killed the Destroyer. They were only good for wasting your inventory space.
Anyone else think that Handsome Jack is a robot? Seriously, I think he is. Look at his close-up picture in kirby's avatar, he's got little metal hinges on the sides of his forehead and another one on his chin that look's like Marcus Fenix's goatee. Also, notice how his face is nice and smooth, and it appears to cut off near his hairline where the skin looks noticeably darker and wrinkly. It must be a mask covering up something. Five bucks says that it swings off it's hinges at some point during the story, revealing that he's a robot. He's also got that weird thing on his chest, and something on his hip, I'm thinking they're batteries or something.
My theory is that he's actually the Guardian Angel, but with her AI put into his body. The Guardian Angel was an AI in an old Hyperion satellite, and HJ (oh god why -.-) is the owner/prez of Hyperion. HJ claims to be the man who killed the Destroyer and saved the world, which the GA technically did because she just used you as a pawn. HJ can also see anywhere on the planet at any time, which the GA could also do.
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Post by kirbyderby on May 12, 2012 12:53:42 GMT -5
Well, to be fair, Jack has a huge moon/space base that he probably uses for recon as well as air-mailing enemies wherever and whenever he wants. Also, he still has normal human features like ears and eyes behind the mask, though I suppose a robot could convincingly fake those, too. Interestingly, he has differently-colored eyes; one is green and one is blue.
I don't generally do a lot of theorycrafting, but I think it would be pretty funny if the mask came off and he has the exact same face as the mask does.
The eridian Thunder Storm and the acid spewing one from the DLC were pretty good (Stampeding Spatter Gun?), but the slower movement speed was really a hassle.
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Post by yaztromatos on May 13, 2012 7:43:57 GMT -5
I wouldn't say any weapon with perfect accuracy would be OP. In fact the vast majority of weapons in the game seem to have crap DPS, so I don't bother picking them up. Usually I look at DPS first, then accuracy, with exceptions. For shotguns I only care about damage. I'm not a big fan of full auto AA-12 style shotgunning. I like big loud kill you in 1 shot shotgunning. And I also don't generally care much about accuracy though if I found a really accurate one I'd have to give it a go if the damage was okay. For snipers I similarly don't pay as much attention to ROF because I rarely fire them at full speed anyway. High damage again is king but only if the accuracy is at least good enough. Most snipers are accurate enough for my uses, though. So I look at damage first. It the damage is lower than what I got it's vender loot regardless of the accuracy. Perfect accuracy would be OP for shotguns and possibly full auto weapons, but again it would depend on the damage and/or DPS of the weapon. I'm not about to bother with a gun if all it does is give skags a nasty itch. I wants bloody gooey chunks! ;p But yeah... anyway. I'm just blathering. Really enjoying the General Knoxx DLC thing lately. ;p Obviously elements are something to consider too, however since I'm playing Roland they aren't as pivotal. My primary weapons aren't great as elementals and just in general I've not been able to find elemental weapons that are as effective as my non elementals... with exceptions. For rockets I favor the elementals as having an AOE elemental trigger seems more useful than the kinda bleh damage I get from non elemental rockets. They also have some utility on snipers for me. I keep hoping for elemental assault rifles worth a gosh darn golly gee whiz, but they are all pretty much trash it seems. Ditto for shotguns. Actually I've been using the same shotgun for what feels like half the game. lol I think it's 167x11 or so and I just haven't found anything that can touch it for killing power. Sure it only holds 2 shells per the specs but with my skills and class mod I actually get like 7 or something so it's no big deal. The accuracy is low but the damage is so good it doesn't matter. Of course I'm only level 42. I'm sure that I'll find better eventually... I'll be kinda sad to see it go, honestly. I've had it longer than any of my other guns and yet it is by far the most effective still. lol Though I actually spend more time sniping dudes than getting in close. I mostly use it for backup and psychos. mm.... Can't wait to play the sequel! I found a small drop in damage for a higher accuracy shotgun prefferably with a good fire rate the most devestating weapon in the game I have come across. Specifically a caustic crux and a vladof shotty with ~65% accuracy, i found them to be amazing at enemies with large hit areas at even medium to long ranges. Sure for short range decimation, I preferred a fast shooting even low accuracy shotty excellent for pesky things like midgets and scythids etc.. Basically its large cone made up for my bad accuracy. Fucking great game though
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Post by palladium on May 30, 2012 5:45:39 GMT -5
Just pre-ordered Borderlands 2 (Amazon is running a $10 credit deal), already can't wait to get it!!! Gonna have to jump in and play the first one a bit just to remember how awesome it is, maybe loot Crawmerax.
Did they ever bother to patch the Knoxx unlimited time deal, where you drop through the floor?
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Post by kirbyderby on May 30, 2012 11:10:19 GMT -5
Just pre-ordered Borderlands 2 (Amazon is running a $10 credit deal), already can't wait to get it!!! Gonna have to jump in and play the first one a bit just to remember how awesome it is, maybe loot Crawmerax. Did they ever bother to patch the Knoxx unlimited time deal, where you drop through the floor? Nope, Knoxx lootfest is still wide open.
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