Red Dot/MARS vs Holographic

[mannon]

Okay I'm not really asking for opinions on which is better.

What I want to know is facts. I want to understand why the holo is played off as the more advanced sight in MW2.

I can understand why it would be IRL, since you wouldn't have to align your eye with any sights. As long as you can see through the window the reticle would line up, just like the holographic hud on fighter jets.

But in MW2 when you aim down the sights it's like having the gun glued to your head. The sights are always accurate.

In fact they are even accurate when they shouldn't be. Use the iron sights on an SMG and look around. Notice how the rear sight moves out of alignment. Yet the bullets will still fall where the front sight is on the screen. The gun changing it's angle actually is just visual effect and makes no difference as near as I can tell.

Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah. Personally I don't see much difference in practical terms between the RDS and Holo other than the reticle for the holo is big and actually blocks the view some, which is mightily annoying at long range. I suppose it might be decent at shorter ranges, but when your targets are barely bigger than the reticle or less it's a bitch.

It looks to me to be roughly the same zoom and the snap and kick and all feels about the same, but I've not done any kind of extensive testing.

Just what, if anything, is the practical difference? Because if there's not some redeeming value to the Holo then I will simply continue unlocking them purely for experience and then ignoring them, because I just can't stand that stupid reticle blocking my view all the time.

Anyway... that's just a pet peev of mine... and my brother's. We both hate that damn holo. lol RDS works just fine for me, though. Though I'm kinda partial to the zoom from an acog, but I prolly need to giveup that crutch. >,> Especially since testing is showing the acog actually adds more recoil rather than just making it more visible. I wouldn't have believed it...

[imrlybord7]

Holo has more aim assist, I believe.

[qupie]

why do you think that?
where comes that fact from? I have no ID where that fact or rumour comes from

[individual]

Holo just feels like it has better aim assist, in my experience. Haven't confirmed it, though...

What I can confirm is that when turning, the red dot sight "bends" so that it's slightly off-center, while the holographic sight remains perfectly centered at all times.

[mrdude1228]

It's been said on the game's twitter that it's mostly an aesthetic difference.

@fourzerotwo whats the difference between RDS and Holographic Site?

@slider6902 It's all about personal preference. They're basic function is the same, the real difference is the size of your sight picture

I don't really get the "sight picture" thing since, visualizing it in my head, I seem to recall Holo being a smaller box with a more obscuring reticle, and the RDS is a larger box with a less obscuring reticle. Maybe my head's faulty... I might make a comparison pic soon.

In regard to the red dot sight "bending," I believe that's called parallax. And the lack of parallax is indeed one of the things EOTech heavily advertises about holographic sights, and I second that holographic sights don't seem to do it as much while turning. Also, they MIGHT be less affected by the stun grenade camera shake thing, though that's a guess rather then experience. If you combine those two things with the fact Holo's reticle is bigger (easier to see in a confusing firefight?), it could be better for close-medium range, while RDS's smaller dot and larger (I think?) window will help you pick out targets far away?

It's worth noting that if this is the case, it would make sense for the Holo to have better aim assist. And by better, I mean stronger; because closer enemies can move faster across your screen, the assist would theoretically help you keep up with them if you don't have a superhigh sensitivity. Furthermore, doing medium-long range stuff with RDS, one of the common complaints already in CoD4 was aim assist was a bother because someone could screw it up by running in front of your sights. This, however, is supremely hypothetical as I haven't noticed a difference myself.

*rantrantrant*

EDIT: Okay, so I compared sights visually. While I did so with youtube (links to specific videos at end of post), where the video quality is eh and things are apt to get squished somehow or another, it's somethin'.


Definitely not the best images to use together, but I only had a handful of videos to work with because I made sure a) both videos were HD (well at least as classified by YouTube) b) they're both the same weapon (M4). Tried to make comparing decent with some transparency, to some effect, but the bottom middle picture compares them best methinks. The Holo's frame really does obscure a bunch more, the visible area seems SMALLER, and the reticle is big. Anyone with the PC version, feel free to blow this image away whenever >_>

Videos:

[mannon]

Ahhh No wonder I prefer RDS. I hadn't even consciously thought about the frame, but yeah I that's much thicker.

IRL I can totally see why a holo sight would be completely badass. But for MW2 I just don't see as how it has any advantage unless you have a hard time seeing the dot in close in fights, in which case you could probably just go with iron sights...

Of course I'm also assuming they have the same zoom, which could actually be a little different, but I don't think it is.

Think I'll stick with acog/thermal for long range and iron sights for quicker aiming with mebbe an RDS thrown in there now and then mebbe if I bling.

I'm having a very hard time giving up heartbeat sensor... >,> I rather like laughing in the face of counter UAV's and jammers that I go hunt down, plus it's great with blast shield since you aren't as dependent on the radar. It will probably be less useful when there are more ninja, but for now I rarely meet any and when I do I just try to watch for them. And I laugh at cold blood's that think they are invisible to me. ;p Especially when they use jammer.

Really, honestly... don't use both. Ninja would be much better than giving yourself away with jammer.

[toysrme]

Dec 1, 2009 12:59:38 GMT -5 mrdude1228 said:

It's been said on the game's twitter that it's mostly an aesthetic difference.

You SERIOUSLY need to quit following anything 402 says. He's a fucking idiot. He says things all the time without having a fucking clue what he's talking about.




Holo def has more snap in it's auto-aim.

[Den]

For PC, it is obviously looks only.
It is possible that aim-assist is further for the Holographic, but that's up to you console guys to find out.

Anyway:

I cut out the sights from in game screenshots. Had to cut out the dots too, replaced them with the texture for a focal point (The dots look way better at their actual resolution and not distorted on the 3D plane).

Oh yeah, I'll also grab a screenshot for the Mars Sight and FN Scope for reference later.

[kcpwnsgman]

Dec 3, 2009 4:16:34 GMT -5 Den said:

For PC, it is obviously looks only.
It is possible that aim-assist is further for the Holographic, but that's up to you console guys to find out.

Anyway:

I cut out the sights from in game screenshots. Had to cut out the dots too, replaced them with the texture for a focal point (The dots look way better at their actual resolution and not distorted on the 3D plane).

Oh yeah, I'll also grab a screenshot for the Mars Sight and FN Scope for reference later.

I'm pretty sure that they effect the ADS recoil, or at least the FOV is changed and it appears that the recoil is effected. The RDS seems better in all cases either way.

[mannon]

Thanks for the pretty pics, Den. ;p Always nice to see direct graphical representation.

If it just didn't have the circle the holo reticle wouldn't be so obscuring, but it's very difficult to see anything within that circle. Still, though, considering how bulky the frame is I think I would still prefer the RDS, though I still unlock the Holo's anyway.

Is it just me or does the gun actually tilt more with the holo when you look around while ADSing? I know it doesn't matter much because the reticle/dot/cross hairs/iron sights are always 100% accurate while ADSing, regardless of the gun's animation. (Except for misaligned sights.)

But it always seems more prevalent with the holo, like it's showing off the way it works. Hmm... Or maybe it's just the fact that the holo reticle actually is focused at infinity and thus you see it move closer to the edges of the window when you look around where other sights tilt the gun, but keep the actual dot/front sight/cross hairs on target artificially. hmm Prolly the latter... Though it would mean that the holo results in the back of your gun appearing to move around more. It also means that thick frame is more likely to get in the way.

Meh... Too bad.

Personally I think the extra aim assist is all in people's heads.

BTW On a semi related note. Is the FOV for the RDS and Holo always the same on all weapons you can equip them on, and do we really know if the FOV is exactly the same between them?

[Den]

I just checked the UMP and M4A1 - both sights have the same FOV.
Recoil looks consistent.



I'm still four ranks and twenty five kills away from getting back to the FN2000's red dot, so that'll have to wait.

[mannon]

LOL Forgot about the MARS. I don't like that little circle window on it, though I might still use it over a Holo except mebbe on an SMG. And thanks again, you be teh awesome, Den.

Dammot I need to buy a new PC so I can help with this kinda stuff. heh Mebbe for MW3...

[mannon]

Well just in case I tested the RDS and Holo with my SCAR. (Changed class, suicided, picked up both versions to swap back and forth.) The FOV is definitely 100% exactly the same for both, to the pixel. I lined up the top of a wall where there was a clear edge and ADSed until there was a pixel thin sliver of the lighter upper wall at the top of the screen then switched and had the exact same pixel thin sliver. The lockers to the left also looked right, though I didn't test as carefully for horizontal, I'm assuming that should be fine. ;p

I did notice that the holo sits higher on the gun than the RDS, which doesn't make a lot of difference except that it changes where the gun is sighted to. The RDS actaully pulls the gun slightly closer and higher. About the only significance of this is that the black knobs are slightly more obscuring on the RDS, but then again this is at the bottom of the screen, whereas the Holo is more obscuring around the frame which is near the middle.

Anyways... it looks purely cosmetic to me so I guess it comes down to individual taste. ;p Too bad, I rather wish they actually were functionally different somehow, like mebbe a tighter FOV on the Holo.

[individual]

The difference in recoil varies from gun to gun. On some guns, there's no difference...

Den, for an obvious difference in recoil, check the M16... Significantly better with the red dot... Even better with the Holo sight...

[mannon]

The shot grouping for two clips on full auto on the SCAR-H was consistent between RDS and Holo and looked about like the pic in the "MW2 Recoil, shotguns UPDATED" thread. I didn't test any other guns.

[acidsnow]

There's NO difference between the effectiveness of the sights! It's just another way for IW to reward players for gaining XP (assuming you think the Holo is better - which it's not [visually].)

[mannon]

I only unlock them for the XP, I don't use the Holo's... ever. Hate them.

[VOODOO-x-]

The only gun I like the Holographic over the red dot is the TAR. Heck, I'd rather use the open sights over the red dot because the red dot is so small and obscuring on that gun.

[acidsnow]

The only gun you should ever use the Holo sight over the RDS is when aiming the F2000. ...Because (for some reason) the F2000's RDS is terrible and obscuring (it's not the normal RDS)!

[toysrme]

Den, less things have changed in the psat 2-3 years in PC land. Nearly all PC shooters will enable auto-aim when you play with a gamepad.

[sleep]

lol @ using a gamepad on a pc fps

[toysrme]

I lol @ it also, but some poeople do it. game engines support it regardless of platform, its really more a question of when/what conditions is it enabled/disabled. im sure if it's not enabled by default on a gamepad on PC, there's an easy way to do it via console or menu.
on 360, it's enabled by default and can only be 100% disabled by changing your gamesave to flag autoaim_0 at several points.

[n1gh7]

Dec 3, 2009 4:42:10 GMT -5 Den said:

I'm still four ranks and twenty five kills away from getting back to the FN2000's red dot, so that'll have to wait.

FN2000 is MARS sight, same as the TAR-21's

Anyways, MARS sight is terrible and is the only reason that I'll ever use the Holographic sight (except for challengees).

PS F2k suckzzzz

I don't think there is gamepad support on PC?

[individual]

I think the F2000 is underestimated... People don't like it because it's called an assault rifle, but it's more like an SMG. It's easier to spray in close quarters, but to hit at long range you have to fire in short bursts.

[Den]

Dec 3, 2009 23:54:09 GMT -5 n1gh7 said:

FN2000 is MARS sight, same as the TAR-21's

No it isn't.
The FN Telescope is specific to the FN2000, just as the MARS is to the Tavor - it is much longer and has a slightly wider scope (though with a dark shade around the lens).

[Den]

The FN Telescopic sight is huge.

[mannon]

Good grief! And still at the same FOV as the others? I guess the window size is pretty good, but that certainly does block a lot of vision. Still, no worse than an acog, really.

[toysrme]

personal opinion,
the F2k is a run-around SAW/LMG for SAW users that want more movement rate & better reload speed.

[iKONIG]

I think, even with its super duper mega RDS, its still poo! Unless there's a big red button on the side of the gun that we haven't found out yet, then I reckon its another Dr Phil!

[kyucing]

i read somewhere that the RDS is faster to scope than the holo..
tested it somewhat (not using any tools) and found it to be somewhat true, but not too sure =/

If someone has the tool to measure the time it takes to scope, that'd be another factor to consider?

too bad i mainly use TAR21 and the mars sight has very limited view for RDS. So i stick to iron.