Shotgun TTKs - Why Shotguns Suck and Always Will

[notanon]

Proposed pump-action:
50-10 damage
200-800 range
4 spread, 2 ADS
60 RPM
8 pellets per shot
NO steady aim available

Manual-action shotguns are only allowed to shoot once every second. They should reward accuracy with TTKs of zero at even very long distances. As for distances beyond where they can kill in one shot, they should still be able to do SOME damage as to not be completely screwed by some fortunate wielder of an assault rifle.

[Brick2urface]

I don't think that is corrct. I use lightwieght more than sp with the spas and its pretty consistent with good shots out to the last little bit of its 4 pellet kill range of 625. In practice the more total range, larger clip capacity, faster fire rate, and very similar one shot range makes the spas just so much more effective than the 1887. The differences between the one shot kill range is almost negligable.

[kittymulcher]

I had a game of SnD a few months ago where I got an AC-130 with light weight akimboed Models. I was playing trickshotters, but they pulled out their OMA UMPs/Noob tubes. My friend said they weren't pissed off in the chat when I was killing them, basically laughing.
The only good thing to be said about the akimbo models is if you're in their miniscule range and you shoot both barrels they die.
The same can't be said for any shotgun in MW3, I think an akimbo model would have worked well. Cod is about being a bad ass, and what's more bad ass than shooting off both knee caps off at the same time of some corner camper?

[Brick2urface]

Oct 14, 2012 20:25:53 GMT -5 notanon said:

Proposed pump-action:
50-10 damage
200-800 range
4 spread, 2 ADS
60 RPM
8 pellets per shot
NO steady aim available

Not enough damage at range, even with an ads spread of 2. (especially since we know a tight spread can get screwed in any lag) And the max damage range is a little low.

If we are making proposals for realistic input into upcoming cod games and not a hypothetical game, then heres a better one

18-8 damage per pellet
20 pellets
0.20 second ads
5 capacity stock
8 with emags attachment
300-900 range
80 rpm
4 degree spread standard (spread does not change with movement)
2 degree spread with an attachment "Modified choke" (no movement change)
100% ads movement speed
No ads spread tightening but ads gives far better aim assist.

Lots of pellets for consistency, good close range damage, for reliability, and an attachment that grants long one shot kills for accurate users.

[Brick2urface]

Akimbo 1887 in mw2 should have been balanced better.
Akimbo'd:
35-20 damage per pellet
8 pellets per shot
6 degree spread
300-600 range
41 rpm per shotgun

Single 1887:
40-20 damage
4 degree spread
300-800 range
55 rpm.

There now you have a reason to use the mw2 1887's

[asasa]

Oct 14, 2012 20:54:31 GMT -5 Brick2urface said:

Oct 14, 2012 20:25:53 GMT -5 notanon said:

Proposed pump-action:
50-10 damage
200-800 range
4 spread, 2 ADS
60 RPM
8 pellets per shot
NO steady aim available

Not enough damage at range, even with an ads spread of 2. (especially since we know a tight spread can get screwed in any lag) And the max damage range is a little low.

If we are making proposals for realistic input into upcoming cod games and not a hypothetical game, then heres a better one

18-8 damage per pellet
20 pellets
0.20 second ads
5 capacity stock
8 with emags attachment
300-900 range
80 rpm
4 degree spread standard (spread does not change with movement)
2 degree spread with an attachment "Modified choke" (no movement change)
100% ads movement speed
No ads spread tightening but ads gives far better aim assist.

Lots of pellets for consistency, good close range damage, for reliability, and an attachment that grants long one shot kills for accurate users.

That would not be a very popular attachment. You can get a direct statistical advantage via ex mags, or make the gun a shit ton harder to use & cause MANY deaths by missing slightly.. so that it occasionally nets some long range kills? You might say thats fine.. but that works much better as an option AKA a clone weapon with 1

[Brick2urface]

Partially true, but that would be an attachment that you wouldn't have to chose. Maybe ads spread tightening wouldn't be bad.
how about

4 degrees stock, 3 ads
3 degrees with the choke, 2 ads+choke.
That does sound a little more user friendly.

[kittymulcher]

Methinks Brick2urface likes BF3 shotties.
I'll admit I am partial to them myself, good 1 HKO potential with flechette, lots of buck shot to increase consistency, and though the damage is lesser than the cod equivalent, it's consistently spread out over it's spread.

[Brick2urface]

Bf3 spas + Slugs = Me wearing your teams collective colon as ankle socks. 150 rpm 30 meter one shot kills? Infinite range head shots? Long 2 shot capability? Yes please.



gets pretty good around 10:15

[Megaqwerty]

Oct 14, 2012 20:54:31 GMT -5 Brick2urface said:

No ads spread tightening but ads gives far better aim assist.

I'm on PC and what is this.

Your shotgun isn't bad. Should one shot up to 650 with default spread. The tight spread lets it one shot up to 900 units(!). I'd say, make the tight spread the ADS spread and have the hip spread reduction be 0.65x (that is, 2.6), whether that's from Steady Aim, a choke attachment, or a laser attachment.

Dropping gangstas from 23 meters away in a single shot from a CoD shotgun would be wicked sick, yo.

[Brick2urface]

It would take pin point accuracy but it would be really nice to see. I can almost taste the rage.

[Megaqwerty]

Slap on QD and rail gun kids. I love it.

[Brick2urface]

If the black ops 2 870 has hood ads spread then I'm just going to ads walk in most situations because the hip spread on that thing looked terrible, even with the laser sight it was huge while moving. I hope that gets adjusted. Also they need to make sprint infinite. Its way more fun to play when sprint is infinite.

[Megaqwerty]

Stakeout had 100% ADS mobility so that may be viable.

[alexanaxela]

idk i think something as simple as this could work

60-12 damage per pellet
12 pellets
8 capacity capacity
1-700 range
68 rpm
5 hipfire spread
3 ads spread

so that's 2/12 pellets to kill out to about 150 inches and 3/12 pellets to kill out to about 400 inches. Extremely powerful shots up close for a pump action shotgun, but more care would have to be taken at range, because i can understand their concern with shotguns killing in 1 shot from too far away and having too much range. I mean after getting ~14,000 kills with the stakeout, just give me this and i'd be happy

[kittymulcher]

That's unbalanced. In BF3 the 870 MCS has fantastic 1 hit kill range with flechette, out to 16 metres iirc. It does 14.6 damage per flechette, it has 12 of them for 171.6 damage. It kills consistently with low damage, I would daresay that a cod shotgun would be the same. It also has 125 RPM, which makes the low damage not a problem at all really, even though it wasn't in the first place. I think a Bf3 style pump action would actually fit very well in the cod game.

[Brick2urface]

You would just chop off the range at about 25 meters, a bunch of damage at close range, and slow its fire rate down a bunch and viola, cod shotgun.

[Falufa]

While looking at other games with shotguns for ideas, I noticed that one of the mechanics for them in Left 4 Dead 2 is that they deal x5 damage up to 100 units and have infinite character penetration up to 300 units (about 1.67 and 5 meters, respectively).

Perhaps a similar mechanic could be implemented for CoD shotguns, like giving them multiplier before damage dropoff begins. Pump shotguns would get a bigger multiplier than semis and autos so that they require less pellets to kill up close, or they could keep the multiplier for longer distances.

One of the drawbacks of ADS spread reduction it becomes increasingly difficult to track a moving target as it gets closer, making it more attractive to hipfire. This change could possibly allow for relatively large hipfire spreads for very close combat and still reward accuracy by promoting ADS for longer distances.

[Brick2urface]

There are just so many better ways to do the shotguns than multipliers and such. What if the enemy is like one inch out of multiplier range? A shot that you think should kill wouldn't. Thats not the kind of stuff I think should be involved in shotgunning.

[PassiveVengance]

Honestly, i think the whole reason nobody at IW or 3arc would go with an infinite range shotgun is because of the possibility to easily steal somebody else's kill with it. Imagine this. Squeakbox gets infinite range shotgun, but stays far enough away from people to get close to the shotty's minimum damage range and to not get killed very often (maybe said squeakbox also uses a silencer, idk) Anywho, he observes a firefight going on off in the distance, and pops off as many rounds as his infinite range shotgun will allow him. Kill for the squeabox, assist for the person trying his hardest to jam an ACR down someone's throat.

[kirbyderby]

Oct 19, 2012 14:05:58 GMT -5 PassiveVengance said:

Honestly, i think the whole reason nobody at IW or 3arc would go with an infinite range shotgun is because of the possibility to easily steal somebody else's kill with it. Imagine this. Squeakbox gets infinite range shotgun, but stays far enough away from people to get close to the shotty's minimum damage range and to not get killed very often (maybe said squeakbox also uses a silencer, idk) Anywho, he observes a firefight going on off in the distance, and pops off as many rounds as his infinite range shotgun will allow him. Kill for the squeabox, assist for the person trying his hardest to jam an ACR down someone's throat.

The problem with this is the shotgun's spread at those ranges would be so bad that you'd really be better off using a handgun. It would be much easier to killsteal with pretty much any other weapon.

[Megaqwerty]

Oct 19, 2012 10:54:09 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Basically, instead of a flat increase at a certain distance, pellets do 150% damage upon creastion and that number decreases with range.

Aside from penetration, there is zero difference between this and the current damage model.

Oct 19, 2012 14:10:28 GMT -5 kirbyderby said:

The problem with this is the shotgun's spread at those ranges would be so bad that you'd really be better off using a handgun.

Exactly.

Look at the spreadsheet. I posted it for a reason.

Shotguns are ludicrously bad at range. The MW2 Masterkey becomes a 8 hit kill at something like 1200 units.

The spreads in Call of Duty are pretty large, considering relative damage and pellet count, so at range the relative spreads are gigantic, all but preventing kills.

[PassiveVengance]

While this all may be very true, one of the things that would happen with infinite range shotguns being implemented into the game would be a heavy increase in people attempting to engage enemies they have no business engaging. And assuming prior damage is taken by a player before somebody spams their infinite range Striker at them in an attempt to gain a kill (and that minimum damage isn't complete shit, which, I am aware, is a rather large assumption), kill stealing will inevitably happen more often than not. People hipfire snipers (and somehow manage kills, mind you) on a rather common basis. If that doesn't prove any points as to how people would react with an infinite range shotgun, I don't honestly know what will.

[tiesieman]

Oct 22, 2012 10:58:46 GMT -5 PassiveVengance said:

While this all may be very true, one of the things that would happen with infinite range shotguns being implemented into the game would be a heavy increase in people attempting to engage enemies they have no business engaging. And assuming prior damage is taken by a player before somebody spams their infinite range Striker at them in an attempt to gain a kill (and that minimum damage isn't complete doo-doo, which, I am aware, is a rather large assumption), kill stealing will inevitably happen more often than not. People hipfire snipers (and somehow manage kills, mind you) on a rather common basis. If that doesn't prove any points as to how people would react with an infinite range shotgun, I don't honestly know what will.

That should only happen initially. If you try shooting that shotgun at someone to far and don't draw the conclusion "hey this is pretty damn useless, maybe I need to get in closer" you'd probably suck with any weapon

[Disgruntled Jigglypuff]

Oct 22, 2012 10:58:46 GMT -5 PassiveVengance said:

While this all may be very true, one of the things that would happen with infinite range shotguns being implemented into the game would be a heavy increase in people attempting to engage enemies they have no business engaging. And assuming prior damage is taken by a player before somebody spams their infinite range Striker at them in an attempt to gain a kill (and that minimum damage isn't complete doo-doo, which, I am aware, is a rather large assumption), kill stealing will inevitably happen more often than not. People hipfire snipers (and somehow manage kills, mind you) on a rather common basis. If that doesn't prove any points as to how people would react with an infinite range shotgun, I don't honestly know what will.

Only people who shouldn't be using shotguns to begin with will be attempting stuff like that.

[Brick2urface]

Oct 22, 2012 10:58:46 GMT -5 PassiveVengance said:

While this all may be very true, one of the things that would happen with infinite range shotguns being implemented into the game would be a heavy increase in people attempting to engage enemies they have no business engaging. And assuming prior damage is taken by a player before somebody spams their infinite range Striker at them in an attempt to gain a kill (and that minimum damage isn't complete doo-doo, which, I am aware, is a rather large assumption), kill stealing will inevitably happen more often than not. People hipfire snipers (and somehow manage kills, mind you) on a rather common basis. If that doesn't prove any points as to how people would react with an infinite range shotgun, I don't honestly know what will.

[kittymulcher]

Shotguns are snipers with slug ammo on BF3. It's the bestest thing ever. Frankly though on Bf3, if you can hit someone 120 metres away with a Spas-12 in the head you deserve the kill.

[Brick2urface]

with mid and long range optics its not hard. But the low zoom stuff get difficult. I have about a 300 meter headshot with the spas. Dumb sniper.

[tiesieman]

Slugs aren't one hit kill to the head at range, are they? At least, they didn't do that for a long time after launch

Anyway, Battlefield's shotgun balance is not great as well. Flechettes, the only other worthwhile option next to slugs (buckshot was outclassed by flechettes, don't know if they still are) are still pretty short-ranged and sort of inconsistent

[Brick2urface]

Oct 23, 2012 13:32:43 GMT -5 tiesieman said:

Slugs aren't one hit kill to the head at range, are they? At least, they didn't do that for a long time after launch

Anyway, Battlefield's shotgun balance is not great as well. Flechettes, the only other worthwhile option next to slugs (buckshot was outclassed by flechettes, don't know if they still are) are still pretty short-ranged and sort of inconsistent

Slugs are a one shot to the head at any range from a pump action. They do 40 min damage and the head for shotguns have a 2.5 multiplier.

You are right about the balance being poor with the shotguns. Slugs and flechette are the only remotely usefull ammo. The buckshot has the range of a sword and isn't that much more powerfull. Buckshot and flechette do the same damage at 12 meters now but flechette does more damage past that with a tighter spread making it far more usefull than buck. Not to mension faster bullet speed on most shotguns with flechette. But both are inconsistent but the fire rate of bf3's shotguns makes the inconsistencies less harmfull.