Shotgun TTKs - Why Shotguns Suck and Always Will

[Brick2urface]

Nov 9, 2012 14:55:40 GMT -5 Mousey said:

I didn't mind blurring the class lines, because that only happened when the class was combat oriented. SMGs could use the raffica and be pretty good at range, but then they use stopping power, which doesn't have too much synergy with SMGs as it is (since their high RoF is very forgivving of missed shots)

Vector with red dot and stopping power was one of the best guns in the game. Accurate 4 bullet kill at 1000 rpm with high ads mobility. That combined with a red dot raffica = IMMA RAPE YA B1TCH

[Brick2urface]

Nov 9, 2012 15:15:53 GMT -5 Mousey said:

pff rds in mw2

It helps. Vector and rafica both have poor irons for me.

[Amirror]

Wasn't RDS on Raffica slightly misaligned? If it was, then don't you mean Holographic?

[asasa]

Nov 9, 2012 15:36:59 GMT -5 Amirror said:

Wasn't RDS on Raffica slightly misaligned? If it was, then don't you mean Holographic?

The irons were, too.

[Brick2urface]

Nov 9, 2012 15:40:19 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Brick, you're literally the worst champ in the game.

Bad irons get me killed. I am so glad blops 2 weapons all appear to have good irons.

[Brick2urface]

:30

[citrus]

Something that people seem to miss out on is that while shotguns may have a crap minimum TTK if they miss/don't kill with their first shot, in a close quarters confrontation people will usually be hipfire spraying and missing quite a bit regardless of what weapon they use. 2 rounds at 80 rpm is still faster than 12 at 800 rpm.

[Amirror]

How did I do so awesome with the KSG damage in MW3 today? Perfect OSK everytime at the edge of it's range. I couldn't do that with the other pumps. Must be a sign that involves the BO2 KSG...

[wings]

Asking for a general consensus on here: do shotguns still suck? If so, would it help in changing the distinction of primary and sexondary by allowing any two, or more, weapons to be equipped?

Also, I would like to have a confirmation, which game has the best shotguns? I have some guy who insists on MW3 having the best ones but I have a feeling ihe is incorrect.

[Aphoristic]

Why would you bump a 2 year old thread?

[probaddie]

Brains.... BRAAAAAAIIIINNNNSSSSSSSSS...

[kylet357]

Sept 8, 2014 4:06:31 GMT -5 wings said:

I have some guy who insists on MW3 having the best ones but I have a feeling ihe is incorrect.

There has never been a time when anyone has been any more incorrect than your friend there. MW2 probably had the best shotguns, with the best of them probably being the SPAS-12 (insane range and damage) but the others were quite deadly as well. It's very possible to get a one pellet kill with the Rangers if you have stopping power and you're up close. M1014 was a semi-auto SPAS-12 at the price of a smaller magazine and less range. Striker was obviously low damage X limited pellet, but was spamtastic. Models are just cool to look at. AA-12 will pretty much shutdown any tight spaced encounter in a flash.

[probaddie]

Sept 8, 2014 7:29:38 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Necroing threads doesnt matter if the discussion can still be relevant. Everyone eat dick....

It's not just the thread that's been "necroed"; this discussion has been had many times over.

Edit: Sorry, I don't eat dicks, just BRRRRRRAAAAIIIIIINNNSSSSSSS!!

[kylet357]

Sept 8, 2014 7:43:36 GMT -5 Mousey said:

to be fair, if someone hadnt played mw2, mw3 shotguns are easily second best.

I'd rather use Black Ops 2 or even Ghosts shotguns. At least they came ready to use.

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

Sept 8, 2014 9:17:45 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

Sept 8, 2014 7:43:36 GMT -5 Mousey said:

to be fair, if someone hadnt played mw2, mw3 shotguns are easily second best.

I'd rather use Black Ops 2 or even Ghosts shotguns. At least they came ready to use.

No they didn't.

[wings]

Sept 8, 2014 7:39:08 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

Sept 8, 2014 4:06:31 GMT -5 wings said:

I have some guy who insists on MW3 having the best ones but I have a feeling ihe is incorrect.

There has never been a time when anyone has been any more incorrect than your friend there. MW2 probably had the best shotguns, with the best of them probably being the SPAS-12 (insane range and damage) but the others were quite deadly as well. It's very possible to get a one pellet kill with the Rangers if you have stopping power and you're up close. M1014 was a semi-auto SPAS-12 at the price of a smaller magazine and less range. Striker was obviously low damage X limited pellet, but was spamtastic. Models are just cool to look at. AA-12 will pretty much shutdown any tight spaced encounter in a flash.

Not a friend, just some stranger on a non-COD forum. I made a slight exaggeration stating that Destiny is like COD by having useless shotguns. Then I get countered by a single video of someone in a soft lobby using Specialist getting a MOAB with the USAS or the SPAS (forget which). I did later correct myself stating I don't believe they are competitive based on the following grounds (I appreciate this is one of 'those' posts):

No speed boost over SMGs barring the USAS getting free Extreme Conditioning unintentionally since the others did not have it from what I remember.

ADS time for shotguns equals SMGs at 0.2s. Shotguns should not be forced to ADS to get a tight hipfire spread as that comes with movement penalties. And a shotgun is supposed to be king for CQC but imposing movement penalties to gain accuracy boosts to guarantee a OHK seems silly.

Perks like Steady Aim shouldn't exist because shotguns shouldn't be needing them to function properly, same with Range and Damage on them.

Perhaps I am being unrealistic with shotguns since I do not see that much point to them when they don't have much of a OHK range beyond 12m. If SMGs took longer to kill I would probably feel prompted to use a shotgun in CQC but SMGs seem just as good.

Sept 8, 2014 7:43:36 GMT -5 Mousey said:

to be fair, if someone hadnt played mw2, mw3 shotguns are easily second best.

Well I thought this myself because I've never liked the shotguns in 3arc games much. In addition I think they do not always have static hipfire. I believe BO2 gave them static hipfire with the Laser Sight attachment but then they should be good to hipfire to start with. Obviously the KSG using slugs is a shotgun to ADS with but I wanted to use that in BO2 and discovered here that there wasn't much point because SMGs are so much more flexible, let alone that Quickdraw gave a larger reduction in ADS time to SMGs than shotguns. Plus, shotguns are secondaries in MW2 that gives them added utility in terms of contributing to a game when someone is using a niche primary. But then I never saw the issue in having a need for primary and secondary, if someone wants to spawn with an LMG and a sniper rifle, for example, then I don't see why a perk is needed to allow this since scavenging is permitted. It seems like I'm in the minority on this so I don't know if I have missed something.

I still haven't played MW2 for months so I do cannot legitimately form a judgment that comes from experience from using the weapon because weapon stats may only give so much, which is why I've posted this.

[kylet357]

Sept 8, 2014 15:17:08 GMT -5 ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) said:

Sept 8, 2014 9:17:45 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

I'd rather use Black Ops 2 or even Ghosts shotguns. At least they came ready to use.

No they didn't.

What I mean is that I don't need a damage or range enhancing perk/attachment to make the guns good. They were good enough from the start to be used bare. MW3 shotguns, bar the USAS and KSG-12 post-patch, needed them to be anything good.

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

Only the R870 and KSG were even remotely close to being good, M1216 and Sega were only good around corners or in small rooms.
The KSG was a glorified Sniper, the only truly good and comparable shotgun is the R870 and that only has an advantage within the first 360 units, and only ADS. Hipfiring that thing without laser was a death wish. Plus USAS was god tier, full auto, good range, built in Extreme Conditioning.

[kylet357]

Sept 8, 2014 20:21:38 GMT -5 ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) said:

Only the R870 and KSG were even remotely close to being good, M1216 and Sega were only good around corners or in small rooms.
The KSG was a glorified Sniper, the only truly good and comparable shotgun is the R870 and that only has an advantage within the first 360 units, and only ADS. Hipfiring that thing without laser was a death wish. Plus USAS was god tier, full auto, good range, built in Extreme Conditioning.

I never use the Long Barrel on the M1216. Just Extended Mags.

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

I never used long barrel on it either. What's the point? It's a low damage short range shotty. I preferred Laser and Fast Mag, but that doesn't mean it's better than MW3 shotguns. USAS was better than M1216, Striker even post patch is better than the Sega, again KSG wasn't really a Shotty to me, and the R870 was only better until it's 3 PTK ended. So in that regard, sure the SPAS or KSG or Model might be a bit weaker to start, but they're still better overall even without damage or range. The R870 is already a 6 PTK by 423u while the USAS, KSG and SPAS are still 4 PTK around that range and further. And the Model is a 5 PTK farther than R870's range.

Damage and Range just made them better than they already were. You know like how Stopping Power made the MW2 shotguns even better.

Maybe if BO2 used the more traditional damage drop off they might've been better, but they purposefully made the good aspects have incredibly short ranges.

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2014 4:06:31 GMT -5 wings said:

Asking for a general consensus on here: do shotguns still suck? If so, would it help in changing the distinction of primary and sexondary by allowing any two, or more, weapons to be equipped?

Also, I would like to have a confirmation, which game has the best shotguns? I have some guy who insists on MW3 having the best ones but I have a feeling ihe is incorrect.

Others have already said it (and this gets mentioned like every other day on this board) but MW2 takes the cake in regards to "best" shotguns.

I would argue however that CoD2's trench gun takes second place. It had reasonably strong damage and range (50-15, 384-800 off the top of my head) and its hipfire while not great, wasn't too bad either. In a slower paced game with relatively smaller maps the trench gun was awesome. In a competitive setting throwing your trench gun in the hands of the right player meant being able to hold entire chunks of maps down on Axis in S&D.

Wishful thinking of course but I'd hope Sledgehammer makes shotguns strong but also keeps the hipspread tight and ADS spread tighter. If I see that ugly Blops2 style shotgun balancing where the hipspread is enormous I might scoop my eye balls out with an ice cream scooper.

[kylet357]

Sept 9, 2014 1:06:57 GMT -5 @xxis said:

Sept 8, 2014 4:06:31 GMT -5 wings said:

Asking for a general consensus on here: do shotguns still suck? If so, would it help in changing the distinction of primary and sexondary by allowing any two, or more, weapons to be equipped?

Also, I would like to have a confirmation, which game has the best shotguns? I have some guy who insists on MW3 having the best ones but I have a feeling ihe is incorrect.

Others have already said it (and this gets mentioned like every other day on this board) but MW2 takes the cake in regards to "best" shotguns.

I would argue however that CoD2's trench gun takes second place. It had reasonably strong damage and range (50-15, 384-800 off the top of my head) and its hipfire while not great, wasn't too bad either. In a slower paced game with relatively smaller maps the trench gun was awesome. In a competitive setting throwing your trench gun in the hands of the right player meant being able to hold entire chunks of maps down on Axis in S&D.

Wishful thinking of course but I'd hope Sledgehammer makes shotguns strong but also keeps the hipspread tight and ADS spread tighter. If I see that ugly Blops2 style shotgun balancing where the hipspread is enormous I might scoop my eye balls out with an ice cream scooper.

I don't see any problem with the big hipfire spread if aiming allows you to get something 2 or 3 times tighter and one hit kill a target at the edge of your range.

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

Sept 9, 2014 10:16:10 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

Sept 9, 2014 1:06:57 GMT -5 @xxis said:

Others have already said it (and this gets mentioned like every other day on this board) but MW2 takes the cake in regards to "best" shotguns.

I would argue however that CoD2's trench gun takes second place. It had reasonably strong damage and range (50-15, 384-800 off the top of my head) and its hipfire while not great, wasn't too bad either. In a slower paced game with relatively smaller maps the trench gun was awesome. In a competitive setting throwing your trench gun in the hands of the right player meant being able to hold entire chunks of maps down on Axis in S&D.

Wishful thinking of course but I'd hope Sledgehammer makes shotguns strong but also keeps the hipspread tight and ADS spread tighter. If I see that ugly Blops2 style shotgun balancing where the hipspread is enormous I might scoop my eye balls out with an ice cream scooper.

I don't see any problem with the big hipfire spread if aiming allows you to get something 2 or 3 times tighter and one hit kill a target at the edge of your range.

You can't OHK at the edge that's the problem with BO2. It keeps the 10 minimum for longer than at the very end. I generally rule 2/3 or less of the pellets for an effective OHK, if you requite 7 or all 8 pellets you're gambling even with a good ADS spread. Add on movement penalties for spread and the BO2 shotguns are terrible at being shotguns, if you have to ADS while using a shotgun for it to be effective then there's no point in using a shotgun if the range isn't good. The idea of a shotgun is to beat an SMG at close range and if an SMG can hipfire significantly better than a shotgun then the SMG has the advantage because they're already firing as you ADS. The MW2 SPAS is the best because it could afford to not use Steady Aim because it only ever needed 1/2 the pellets with SP

[kylet357]

/start sarcasm
I still can't say that the SPAS-12 is the best because the Masterkey from MW2 exists
/end sarcasm

In all seriousness though, that thing was pretty good.

[LeGitBeeSting]

What part of "Always Will" do you mice not understand?

[kylet357]

Sept 9, 2014 21:02:43 GMT -5 Mousey said:

You didnt need steady aim on any of the shotties in mw2 really.

Well, it was helpful on the Akimbo shotguns (Ranger and Model 1887) but for anything else you're pretty much right on point.

[wings]

Sept 9, 2014 14:10:56 GMT -5 ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) said:

Sept 9, 2014 10:16:10 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

I don't see any problem with the big hipfire spread if aiming allows you to get something 2 or 3 times tighter and one hit kill a target at the edge of your range.

You can't OHK at the edge that's the problem with BO2. It keeps the 10 minimum for longer than at the very end. I generally rule 2/3 or less of the pellets for an effective OHK, if you requite 7 or all 8 pellets you're gambling even with a good ADS spread. Add on movement penalties for spread and the BO2 shotguns are terrible at being shotguns, if you have to ADS while using a shotgun for it to be effective then there's no point in using a shotgun if the range isn't good. The idea of a shotgun is to beat an SMG at close range and if an SMG can hipfire significantly better than a shotgun then the SMG has the advantage because they're already firing as you ADS. The MW2 SPAS is the best because it could afford to not use Steady Aim because it only ever needed 1/2 the pellets with SP

This is why I've said hipfire is 'too accurate' for SMGs. I mean COD might not be the best for hipfire accuracy amongst shooters (I have no idea if there's a ranking on this) but, a fast rate of fire and a maximum damage resulting in 3-4HK at close range, usually means shotguns in their current state are pointless for me. And when the majority of the player base appears to favour run and gunning then shotguns being needlessly hampered is just silly. I found from my limited time using shotguns in MW3 that Steady Aim was needed, but may be it was me. I only used the Striker and the Model so I have no idea if that means anything. But forcing Steady Aim/Laser Sight is like forcing people to use Stopping Power I would have thought.

Sept 9, 2014 10:16:10 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

I don't see any problem with the big hipfire spread if aiming allows you to get something 2 or 3 times tighter and one hit kill a target at the edge of your range.

I would argue having a different shotgun that functions slightly differently would be better, such as a shotgun that fires slug rounds etc.

[kylet357]

Sept 9, 2014 10:16:10 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

I don't see any problem with the big hipfire spread if aiming allows you to get something 2 or 3 times tighter and one hit kill a target at the edge of your range.

I would argue having a different shotgun that functions slightly differently would be better, such as a shotgun that fires slug rounds etc.

I'm not against slug shotguns at all. I thought the KSG was great.

[mannon]

I'm completely against spread changing between hipfire and ADS, not just because it's unrealistic, but it is counter-intuitive. Most people would assume the spread never changes unless they are CoD players used to the ridiculous mechanic.

If on the other hand the spread was randomly off center in hipfire as in the aim of the shotgun it-self being difficult to be precise in hipfire then that would make a lot more sense. I would recommend good visual feedback via hit locations, hit decals, tracers, and animation, though.

[wings]

Sept 10, 2014 13:17:31 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

Sept 9, 2014 10:16:10 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

I don't see any problem with the big hipfire spread if aiming allows you to get something 2 or 3 times tighter and one hit kill a target at the edge of your range.

I would argue having a different shotgun that functions slightly differently would be better, such as a shotgun that fires slug rounds etc.

I'm not against slug shotguns at all. I thought the KSG was great.

Great? You have low expectations of shotguns then. For me to bother using the KSG in BO2 I'd have wanted the following:

OHK range of 20m
The OHK range is its range (what point is a two shot range for slugs and buckshot?)
ADS time of 0.1s
No need to ADS to gain accuracy and tight hipfire
Free speed boost over SMGs, say 107% run speed
Having to be able to reload whilst printing by default (yes it's in Ghosts but I thought 3arc might have thought about this)
No movement penalty upon strafing

Otherwise I find SMGs to be too flexible not to use for CQC.