Is Rapid Fire good for SMG's?

[ilikev8]

Any drawbacks of using it? I would assume faster rate of fire, combined with Stopping Power would make an SMG amazing at killing power.

[mw0swedeking]

when ADS it blows, because the shot comes out before the recoil has settled. Combined with SP and steady aim, it's a pretty effective sprayer, esp. on the MP5k, a 2 shot kill up close w/ SP.

[mannon]

Yeah faster ROF = more recoil. You can compensate with some of the weapons, though. The UMP tends to ride up as you fire so if you start low it will rake up over your target and you can push your aim down as you fire to keep it shooting level if you get the timing right. It's not super easy with a controller, probably much easier with a mouse. My main problem with it is once I take damage I can't get my aim back down before I'm dead so that can be an issue.

[corwinwarner]

I think RF is pretty easier to use when you have practiced burst-rifles like the FAMAS or M16. You get accustomed to spraying by pressing repeatedly the trigger. It minimizes recoil a little.

Next reflex to have is, as with the TAR-21, to target a little more down, as the recoil will make you fire up and up. If well done, the results are awesome cause you get a lot of HS (the TAR is my leader, along for snipers, for HS .

But in the end, I agree with mannon that it is quite difficult to get your aim back when you've been fired out...

[mw0swedeking]

even bursting though, rapid fire is tough to control and I haven't found it helpful very often. I would always rather have a silencer on my SMGs.

[xenon]

Marathon + Light footed + MP5k + Rapid Fire = Rushing close range Hip-Spray heaven. Once Model 1887 is re-balanced in next patch this will be my favorite run n gun class for sure.

You can also use it up to medium range with some help from ADS (start shooting from the hip while aiming though) and compensate for the recoil and movement. However, forget trying to gun down anything further away than medium range though as accuracy goes out the window and damage per bullet is cut in half. Almost two second reload without Sleight of Hand and running into ammo issues after 4-5 kills or so also hurts...

[acidsnow]

I've found that using Rapid Fire on any SMG is a really bad idea unless you're in very-very close quarters! The 33% increased rate at which bullets are fired is useful, but I can't recommended it above the other attachment - because it's almost impossible to get mid to long range kills using it. If you really feel inclined to spray bullets then using the P90 is your most accurate choice, followed by the UZI and then the Vector. It will drastically change how you play, and in the end you'll probably agree that it's not worth using :\

[acidsnow]

Dec 17, 2009 4:54:06 GMT -5 corwinwarner said:

I think RF is pretty easier to use when you have practiced burst-rifles like the FAMAS or M16. You get accustomed to spraying by pressing repeatedly the trigger. It minimizes recoil a little.

That is completely false, my tests have shown that repeatedly pressing the trigger of any automatic weapon does NOT increase its accuracy - the recovery time of the weapons seems to have been balanced by IW to prevent people from abusing [weapons like the TAR-21] by clicking quickly (or even slightly-slower than "quickly").

This problem existed early in the days of Counter-Strike, the AK47 was uber strong but not accurate, so people peppered the mouse button to make every shot a pin-point accurate shot - which was later fixed in a patch because it was so IMBA.

[mannon]

I don't think he meant pressing the button repeatedly to very quickly single shot the gun. Since he mentioned burst fire weapons I think he meant burst firing 3 or 4 shots then pausing slightly to recover from recoil a tad before firing the next burst.

[James]

While ads, the recoil seems a little too unbearable (as if there wasn't already plenty on the mp5k) so rapid fire is only ideal for spraying.

[sleep]

Dec 17, 2009 9:26:01 GMT -5 mw0swedeking said:

even bursting though, rapid fire is tough to control and I haven't found it helpful very often. I would always rather have a silencer on my SMGs.

^ this

[ilikev8]

I don't understand. In COD4 Double Tap MP5 and even the Uzi were easy to control. Fire in short bursts and any weapon could be used effectively with Double Tap. In this game, the MP5k on Rapid Fire is literally UNCONTROLLABLE!

[corwinwarner]

As said by mannon, I was pointing the fact that you can use RF through little bursts of 4-5 bullets to limit recoil.

Actually, I spent a few time yesterday testing this on most SMG's. It's still tough to keep on with a good accuracy, especially with weapons like the P90 or Vector which already have a high ROF.

Moreover, your aim has to be all the more precise 'cause you will lack too much precision after 2-3 bursts.

I got my best results with the UMP45 (i think its basic ROF is a little slower than the others).

Still, much kills were done at very close range, let's say knife range... in the end, I removed RF from my class.

[xenon]

Up to and including medium (SMG / shotgun) range spray MP5k+Rapid Fire from the hip towards the general area of your target. It goes down in much less than a second and your aim can be pretty far off - which give you a lot of leeway moving and jumping around with the light footed perk. Even if you are struck with a stray bullet so your aim goes off a bit you will pretty much still kill your target before he kill you because you will fill the entire reticle with bullets (and it feel as if you get a small time advantage when rounding a corner compared to waiting for someone to get around the corner?).

You don't use it to camp or snipe targets at distance, there are way better weapons for this - (Assault rifles, LMGs, UMP, Sniper Rifles etc). You use it with Marathon+Light footed, stay in close quarter areas of the map and spray targets from the hip. Just like how you would play with a shotgun. Run n Gun. Get behind them enemies.

Regarding range, again - treat the 40 damage per bullet with over 1000 RPM as you would use Akimbo Model 1887. Beyond that range recoil get hard to control after the first or second bullet and does only half damage anyway.

The advantage of MP5k over the other SMGs is the high powered damage per bullet up to medium range (don't put a silencer on this baby) coupled with a rather high recoil (which mostly work for you when you spray from the hip anyway) and an already decent rate of fire. The MP5k is probably the SMG you want to use as "Run n Gun" with Marathon + Light Footed + Steady Aim. You improve all of the above characteristic with the Rapid Fire attachment.

If you want to use SMG and still kill targets at any range with 3 bullets [or one bullet in hardcore], go UMP. This SMG is probably the best suited of them all with a sound suppressor attachment and UMP is probably the SMG you want to use with Cold Blooded (and Ninja Pro for a "Ghost" class). Iron Sights are pretty bad though, so you might want to go Bling for RDS.

P90 have a really high rate of fire and is still decent with ADS (like UZI). P90 also pack lots of bullets and is as fast to reload as MP5k. A good class using P90 would be the "Penetrator", killing moving targets and claymores through walls, floors and ceilings - FMJ, Scavenger, Stopping Power and SitRep Pro.

[corwinwarner]

I agree with you xenon,

Your run'n gun class is exactly what i tested yesterday with various SMG.

I still find that RF is quite hard to manage, even in CQC. Sometimes I'd rather knife my target instead of firing. I guess I lack a little practice with RF.

Whatever, the MP5k and the UMP are coping with most situation, as you wrote it.

As for lightweight pro, it's just awesome, worth the 30km sprinting^^

[ilikev8]

I don't see what's so good about this run and gun class. The MP5k is nearly worthless mid range due to its kick, and if you want close quarters, you got shotguns and machine pistols which don't take up primary and do the job just as good, and the PP2000 is essentially an MP5k with less ammo and recoil.

[mannon]

And even less range. The MP's are baby SMG's.

BTW You in fact DO get a time advantage when coming around a corner due to the netcode. It's because as you round the corner and shoot the enemy standing there the data that you are shooting him only has to go from you to the host. But for him to kill you the data that you ran around the corner has to hit the host and then go to him, and then he has to actually shoot you and that data make it back to the host. You have essentially his entire ping in a time advantage (since ping time is round trip). Thus if he's 100 ping you have 0.100 seconds advantage. On top of that if you actually are the host then you don't even have to wait for your hits to be registered by the server, you're essentially shooting in real time, which nobody else is, lag compensation just makes it feel that way. But if you watch the kill cam when you empty a clip into some guy just before he knifes you then you'll see that you actually didn't shoot him, and probably didn't even get a shot off before you died.

The netcode hugely favors run and gunning, knife lunging, and popping up from cover to hit that guy that's watching your cover and thinks he'll be able to get you first when you pop back up. (I'm usually the poor sap in the last example... bad habits picked up from SP.)

Of course the quicker your TTK the more you can take advantage of the netcode, hence why knives and shotguns with their 0TTK are so good at CQC, which happens to put SMG's at a disadvantage against them. You don't have to get a shot, you have to get the killing shot, and with the lag you can't count on your first hit throwing their aim off either considering that data may not even get to them before they've pulled the trigger on their 0TTK weapon. So even getting the first shot doesn't guarantee victory in a close fight.

It's not as big an issue out at long range, particularly out in the open, though it applies at any range when popping from behind cover. Hence one reason I love my burst AR's. I can pop out and fire a burst or two then duck back rather quickly, and if I do it for each individual burst then I'm actually revealing myself for a very brief period of time compared to the firepower I'm delivering. If you're behind cover during the delay it is almost like having a greater ROF. It also lures enemies to rush, but the FAM16 is just as deadly at close range, in fact I rather like it better than SMG's for close range because it's hard to beat the TTK and I only have to aim and fire once rather than trying to wrangle a bucking stream of bullets. But each to his own. ;p

Personally I don't use Rapid Fire on my UMP, I prefer to take an RDS because I loath the iron sights on it and I'm not a fan of recoil. What I sacrifice in TTK I more or less makeup for in a tad of accuracy. I sort of use it as a bridge between AR's and SMG's since I'm not huge on SMG's so my preferred range is probably a bit longer than usual with SMG's, still though, it helps keep me out of shotgun range.

[cptmacmillan]

Rapid fire actually increases recoil, which a lot of people don't realize. Not just because of faster rof, but recoil per shot is actually increased, plus the recoil from firing more of those shots per second.

[xenon]

Dec 18, 2009 7:57:15 GMT -5 ilikev8 said:

...the PP2000 is essentially an MP5k with less ammo and recoil.

Yes, akimbo machine pistols or akimbo 1887's are also viable on a run n gun class (no rapid fire for machine pistols, but they do not suffer the same reticle penalty when using Akimbo as SMGs do).

You can fire Akimbo 1887's in two different directions and they kill what you hit, but then you have wait for the animation to finish and range of akimbo 1887's are supposedly reduced in the patch making them less viable on medium range. Probably the most popular run 'n gun option - at least prior to the patch.

You can akimbo machine pistols too (I do use akimbo Glock-18's as backup CQB weapons on my Touch Football sniper class all the time and I successfully used them as main weapons on my run 'n gun class in Touch Football), but I believe damage range is shorter than SMGs, again - similar to akimbo shotguns - making them mostly close combat weapons while a rapid MP5k probably is slightly better at medium range. The biggest issue using PP2000 as a main weapon is that it have an even smaller clip than MP5k which means even less amount of total ammo (ammo is already a big issue on the MP5k once you racked up 4-5 kills).

Also, you only get 100% base speed if you spawn with a sniper rifle or SMGs as your primary weapon - so even using shotguns or akimbo machine pistols for your marathon+lightweight run n gun class - you would still want to spawn with a sniper rifle (WA2000 for Full Contact Chess or M21 EBR for Touch Football, but I personally need Sleight of Hand Pro for the faster ADS on my sniper class) or a SMG (but a SMG would not add anything to your class when using shotguns or akimbo machine pistols) as primary weapon anyway.

So yes - MP5k+Rapid Fire is not the only option for a run n gun class, same as using P90+FMJ+Scavenger+Stopping Power+SitRep Pro is not the only option for a Penetrator class [TAR-21 or LMG with one man army are other viable options], but that isn't really what the topic was all about anyway. Using Rapid Fire on MP5k is a option, and the only option where I see rapid fire on a SMG having any use what so ever - and this is what I believe what the OP was asking about...?

Dec 19, 2009 16:50:36 GMT -5 cptmacmillan said:

Rapid fire actually increases recoil, which a lot of people don't realize. Not just because of faster rof, but recoil per shot is actually increased, plus the recoil from firing more of those shots per second.

But again, as long as you use hip-fire at close to medium range, higher rate of fire (and to an extent even more recoil) is a good thing(tm).

[gus]

Dec 19, 2009 16:50:36 GMT -5 cptmacmillan said:

Rapid fire actually increases recoil, which a lot of people don't realize. Not just because of faster rof, but recoil per shot is actually increased, plus the recoil from firing more of those shots per second.

Are you sure?
It seems to just increase recoil because the fire rate is faster than the center speed than it is without rapid fire.

Btw, rapid fire is great on the UMP.