Thoughts on the Killcam.

[Indy_Bones]

Dec 30, 2009 8:34:08 GMT -5 mannon said:

Having said that it does make it particularly difficult to snipe traditionally instead of running around noscoping.

Having said that I don't think we need to make tactical loitering too much easier for snipers, thus I kinda like the idea of making it a perk or something where it's a tradeoff.

It still baffles me that despite the obvious superiority of the AR's over the other weapons, many players feel the need to hamper the cautious player ever more.

Due to the killcam, the art of sniping has been reduced to a mockery, with the constant need to relocate after every kill, because of a crazy feature that shows the enemy exactly where you killed him from. So my reward for being sat in long grass for 2 mins, then carefully making a long-range headshot, is for the guy I killed to be given a radar beacon to where I am so they can come for revenge with virtual impunity...that's punishing me for getting the kill!

Even outside of sniping, I don't see why any player should be punished for taking a smart position to get the drop on the enemy.

I suppose it depends on your view on what tactical loitering is, and based on this, whether or not you feel it's an acceptable tactic.

As far as I'm concerned, if it's legitimate/acceptable in a FPS wargame for players to sprint round the map either knifing or using akimbo shotguns, then it's also perfectly legitimate for a player to do the opposite, and sit in a good position waiting for one of the aforementioned players to some burning round a corner straight into their ambush.

Unless you physically see your killer, or can work out where you were shot from, then you shouldn't be given a further aid to locate them. All this does is encourage the "run and gun" style of play, seemingly looking down on the more "tactical/cautious" players.

That's why I feel the easiest solution is to have a couple of extra game modes outside of HC, where you can have the killcam disabled, but still enjoy the normal gameplay of core.

[mw0swedeking]

Theoretically, hardcore should not be that different from core. It's just less balanced, with some neat features like no map unless you get a UAV and no crosshairs or ammo count. In practice however, people take no killcams as an invitation to camp hard, and so the game gets played in such a vastly different manner that anyone who tries to play conventionally has almost no hope of success.

[moses]

It depends if it's HC TDM or HC HQ. HC TDM, I won't even touch unless the only people with whom I can play are playing it (I have a friend who's addicted to it). It's completely a game of hide and seek, worse than any mode of CoD4 or MW2 I've played. The fact that the time has a good chance of running out instead of being a rarity enforces to me that fact.

People only camp because there's a delay in time to respawn when you die, the only objective is to win or time out with more total kills than the other team, and there's almost nothing you can do if someone sees you first unless you're Daigo Umehara or they're Helen Keller. Then, because everyone camps, often the only way to infiltrate areas is to either get a team mate to be a guinea pig or take one in the ass yourself. Note that this is coming from a usually lone fighter; I know how different it is with friends, but sadly I can't take advantage.

HC HQ, that's okay in my book. Worse than normal HQ, but at least everyone's mostly tactical loitering or going towards the HQ; for me, that means all the campers are looking away from where I come.

[ssog]

Dec 30, 2009 20:10:40 GMT -5 mw0swedeking said:

Theoretically, Touch Football should not be that different from core. It's just less balanced, with some neat features like no map unless you get a UAV and no crosshairs or ammo count. In practice however, people take no killcams as an invitation to camp hard, and so the game gets played in such a vastly different manner that anyone who tries to play conventionally has almost no hope of success.

No killcams *IS* an invitation to camp hard. Killcams were put in to make it more difficult to camp, or to punish campers. That was the whole reason for their existence in the first place. So yeah, when you take them away, it might be construed as an invitation to camp... because that's exactly what it is.

In Softcore, even without the killcam, you can tell where you're getting shot from. You get the red screen effect that indicates the direction of the bullets, you can actually physically see the bullets (or, more accurately, the hitscans) and trace their source, etc. In Hardcore, that's not possible- you die instantly with no clue as to where it came from*. That means that if someone gets a fantastic hiding spot, they can dominate, because they can kill you in an instant and it takes longer than that for you to find them (meaning you'll never be able to kill them).

*Actually, veterans of HC always know exactly where they got killed from. They make a point of knowing all of the good hiding spots, and they know all about the super-secret "camera rollback" feature. Basically, when you die in hardcore, the camera immediately rolls around so that it winds up pointing in the direction that the bullets came from. If the enemy killed you from nearby, you'll see him. If he killed you from far away, you can use your knowledge of the map paired with the knowledge of the direction to get a pretty good idea of where he's shooting from, then go shove a n00b t00b up his ass.

Despite the fact that it does encourage tactical loitering and that games frequently end with 40-60 kills instead of the full 75, I still like Hardcore. It makes every moment more suspenseful when you know that literally any moment could be your last without any warning. It keeps you on your toes. It also makes coordinating as a team that much more effective.

[Indy_Bones]

Jan 1, 2010 0:13:12 GMT -5 ssog said:

No killcams *IS* an invitation to camp hard. Killcams were put in to make it more difficult to camp, or to punish campers. That was the whole reason for their existence in the first place. So yeah, when you take them away, it might be construed as an invitation to camp... because that's exactly what it is.

Or you could see it like I do, and say that it's an unfair nerf, to those players who don't want to spend their play time, doing endless laps through the maps.

We all understand it's a game and not RL, but the idea is meant to be of representing combat/warfare, and it's simply ridiculous to encourage gameplay whereby cautious players are punished in favour of people sprinting round with knives/akimbo shotguns. This is made even worse with things like Commando giving even more assistance to this non-sensical gameplay.

In Touch Football, that's not possible- you die instantly with no clue as to where it came from*. That means that if someone gets a fantastic hiding spot, they can dominate, because they can kill you in an instant and it takes longer than that for you to find them (meaning you'll never be able to kill them).

I totally disagree here, whilst it may be difficult to ascertain where a player is hiding, it's not impossible - it just takes logical thinking.

If you're trying to get to point B, by going via point A and you get shot from nowhere, try going via point C. If you still get shot by the same guy, work out the places where you can shoot both A and C from. This now becomes point D/E/F etc, and you need to workout a route that doesn't involve going via A or C.

An alternative option is to simply go another way althogether and forget about that guy. Unless their entire team was sat doing this and had completely locked a map down, or you're playing an objective based gametype - you don't have to keep trying to hunt this elusive sniper down.

Despite the fact that it does encourage tactical loitering and that games frequently end with 40-60 kills instead of the full 75, I still like Touch Football. It makes every moment more suspenseful when you know that literally any moment could be your last without any warning. It keeps you on your toes. It also makes coordinating as a team that much more effective.

That's one of the key upsides (assuming you care about KDR), because players don't want to spend most of their time sat waiting to respawn, so they don't perform as many 'suicide dashes' because of the consequences.

One final note about tactical loitering is that it can't all be grouped together. If I hear a guy coming near me, I'll try to get into a position that gives me the best chance of surprise to hopefully avoid being outshot, or simply have the player get lucky. Once this encounter is over, I'll start moving again. However, because of the killcam, it can often seem that I'm constantly just sitting there tactical loitering, when in reality my action has been taken in response to their presence.

I do however tend to wander round in a very particular area or territory on the map, and the killcam makes this harder because the enemy knows that there's someone floating around there.

This is very different than a player who simply runs to their favourite tactical loitering spot, with the intention of spending all their time there, until they are shot.

I'm not asking for the killcam to be removed per se, in Core, but simply that another game mode is added which keeps the main elements of Core, but has the spawn delay and no killcam aspect from HC.

[mannon]

I'd be all for the extra game modes. The main issue with that is there are already quite a few, and you can't even see how many people are on them beforehand. Each game mode splits the community a little more and makes it that much harder to get games, which in turn makes it that much harder to get games with local people and good pings. So the more modes we have the longer it takes to get laggier games.

There are a lot of great game modes that would be awesome to play publicly, but the IW probably considers the current number of modes to be pretty close to the upper limit on how much they want to split the community. You can of course make a private match with all the custom rules you want, you just then get stuck only being able to play with friends and it's hard to get enough friends online at the same time to play it unless you go out hunting up friends specifically for the purpose. Even then you're giving up exp.

I dunno, personally I think I wish there was some sort of custom mode where you could make a lobby with whatever rules you want and people could browse a list of custom lobbies and join the ones they liked.

[Indy_Bones]

Jan 1, 2010 5:19:58 GMT -5 mannon said:

You can of course make a private match with all the custom rules you want, you just then get stuck only being able to play with friends and it's hard to get enough friends online at the same time to play it unless you go out hunting up friends specifically for the purpose. Even then you're giving up exp.

I dunno, personally I think I wish there was some sort of custom mode where you could make a lobby with whatever rules you want and people could browse a list of custom lobbies and join the ones they liked.

That's the key problem, I only have 2-3 regular friends on PSN who play MW2, and even then arranging a game is a pain.

I like private matches, but hate the fact that I'm not getting XP.

I totally agree with the idea of custom lobbies, where you could input some search parameters for the game you want, and it lists everything available (or at least those that are closest to your search result if nothing exact is available).

[ssog]

Jan 1, 2010 4:20:38 GMT -5 Indy_Bones said:

Or you could see it like I do, and say that it's an unfair nerf, to those players who don't want to spend their play time, doing endless laps through the maps.

We all understand it's a game and not RL, but the idea is meant to be of representing combat/warfare, and it's simply ridiculous to encourage gameplay whereby cautious players are punished in favour of people sprinting round with knives/akimbo shotguns. This is made even worse with things like Commando giving even more assistance to this non-sensical gameplay.

Hey, I'm a self-professed camper, here. I get the Juggernaut accolade (fewest deaths) in 40% of my matches (42%, actually), while I've only gotten The Feared (most kills) once. I play at a very slow pace, so you don't need to try to convince me that tactical loitering is a legitimate tactic. You're preaching to the choir.

With that said, the killcam is a fabulous innovation. I'm still perfectly able to camp with it active, but it forces me to get a bit more creative about it. Mostly, though, it encourages a lot of other people to run around a bit more, and as a camper, I love that. I'd rather be a camper with a penalty playing against a bunch of run-n-gunners than a camper with no penalty playing against a bunch of other campers.

The killcam is not much of a penalty if you just play it intelligently. If anything, I frequently think of the killcam as an advantage. If I kill someone from the left corner of the room, I know that the next time they enter they'll look there first... so I can simply go to the right corner and shoot them in the back when they do. If anything, I think it's a bit of an advantage to know what the enemy thinks. And even if you don't relocate, the killcam just levels the playing field. When you camp, you know where the enemy is going to be coming from. Well, thanks to the killcam, the enemy knows where you are now, too. Since you both know where the other is, it makes for a relatively fair fight.

Also, I'm a huge fan of killcams as a learning tool. I watch every killcam because it's an opportunity for me to identify my mistakes and improve upon them.

Besides, it's not as if anyone ever watches the things, anyway. I've gotten Spy Games (most time watching killcams) in a match where I died twice.

I totally disagree here, whilst it may be difficult to ascertain where a player is hiding, it's not impossible - it just takes logical thinking.

If you're trying to get to point B, by going via point A and you get shot from nowhere, try going via point C. If you still get shot by the same guy, work out the places where you can shoot both A and C from. This now becomes point D/E/F etc, and you need to workout a route that doesn't involve going via A or C.

An alternative option is to simply go another way althogether and forget about that guy. Unless their entire team was sat doing this and had completely locked a map down, or you're playing an objective based gametype - you don't have to keep trying to hunt this elusive sniper down.

Re-read the asterisked part. There's a much easier way to figure out where you got shot from that doesn't involve getting yourself killed a couple more times first.

I do however tend to wander round in a very particular area or territory on the map, and the killcam makes this harder because the enemy knows that there's someone floating around there.

This is very different than a player who simply runs to their favourite tactical loitering spot, with the intention of spending all their time there, until they are shot.

If you're doing your job, the enemy knows where you are anyway, since that's where you keep killing them. It's not like my location is ever a secret. Killcam or no, when people die a couple of times after entering my area, they tend to figure out that I'm there.

I'm not asking for the killcam to be removed per se, in Core, but simply that another game mode is added which keeps the main elements of Core, but has the spawn delay and no killcam aspect from HC.

IW has already granted your wish. Private lobbies are fully customizable- you could create a game of headquarters with double health, headshots only, no killcams, no spawn delay, and no sprinting, if that's your cup of tea. Rather than creating infinite different public gametypes to cater to every individual player's personal desires (which would fracture the community and lead to some gametypes being so sparsely populated you could never get a room going), IW just gave everyone a fully customizable private match so they can create whatever rules they personally want most.

[chyros]

I think killcams are a fun addition. Especially in private matches these can be a good laugh. They do give away sniper big time though, which is kind of bad. Maybe not giving the enemy a killcam could be put on as a perk benefit, like from cold-blooded or something.

[killeraslox]

If there weren't any Killcams, then tactical loitering would be even more common. Because in "Hardcore" Team Deathmatch I almost never see the match end by Score limit reached, only by Time limit.

On the other hand, if you press the pause button, you can see the map though your killer's eyes. And showing all the members of their team.

P.S. Why the hell is Soft.core filtered and turned into Full Contact Chess?

[ryan]

Just adding my thoughts. I snipe almost exclusively now in MW2, and really don't mind the killcam at all. Just like an actual sniper, I don't take more than 2 shots from the same position anyway. Even if someone comes for revenge via killcam, I will usually either have switched positions slightly, moved to another area completely, or I can kill them before they kill me-either with my rifle or backup mp/pistol. Anyway, there are plenty of spots to snipe on each map that are not the "traditional" sniper spots and I find these are actually the most effective, since they keep people away from my position even if they do see the killcam.

[robesh]

My thoughts on the killcam? It makes me look bad.

[mannon]

On the topic of looking bad I always hate when I get the game winning killcam with a completely noob spraying everywhere lucky ass kill that makes me look like I should be using a dayglow colored nerf dart gun instead so I don't hurt myself. ;p It never seems to be that awesome dart from cover headshot I got five minutes ago. ;p

[ssog]

Jan 2, 2010 17:05:18 GMT -5 mannon said:

On the topic of looking bad I always hate when I get the game winning killcam with a completely noob spraying everywhere lucky ass kill that makes me look like I should be using a dayglow colored nerf dart gun instead so I don't hurt myself. ;p It never seems to be that awesome dart from cover headshot I got five minutes ago. ;p

Heh, I have the opposite problem. I play a lot of HC, so nobody gets many game-ending killcams, and as a slow-paced player, I get fewer than my share. The few killcams I've managed to get have mostly been of the "no way in hell" variety, and then I have to explain in the lobby afterwards that I'm really not that good.

On one game-ender, I was in a firefight and ran out of ammo before the other guy died, was forced to switch to my AT-4 and hip-fire without aiming because I was busy getting shot, and I wound up getting a game-ending double kill. I was just glad that the one badass kill I've ever gotten got replayed in all its splendor.

[mannon]

lol I used to get a few AT4 kills when I'd run out of ammo. My first one pretty much hit the guy in the face as I knew he would be coming down the hallway at me and one of them I backed up around a vehicle for cover while I switched and then it was a classic quake circle strafe and aim for the feet maneuver. mmm... fun

But I don't get those anymore since I generally roll with Stingers for a launcher and I don't run out of ammo too much since I started using Scavenger and OMA.

I'm a compulsive reloader so I rarely run out of the mag in a fight unless it's actually the end of my ammo. I do get caught reloading sometimes though, which sucks. heh I just need to train myself to cancel the reload in those oh shit moments, don't even need to wait for the add time if the clip was only half empty.

Sadly it's the sort of thing I tend to think about only after... like knifing.

[ice597]

there's a reason i keep my sniper scope on for a while before and after i make a kill, then they'd have to guess the location since the scope is very zoomed up, but an expert will have no problem IDing where i was, and it's maybe why they gave snipers 100% movement speed.

[mannon]

Turns out you can apparently hit start while watching the killcam and actually see your killer's position on the map! lol

[ssog]

Jan 5, 2010 22:43:05 GMT -5 mannon said:

Turns out you can apparently hit start while watching the killcam and actually see your killer's position on the map! lol

Not your killer's. The entire enemy team's. Unless your team has used a CUAV or EMP recently, in which case you see either static (CUAV) or nothing (EMP).

[mannon]

O,O Wow, okay... that's crazy. lol

[azrael1911]

protip, scope 2 seconds before you shoot someone as sniper, and hold your scope for 2 seconds after.

as good as no killcam.

[mannon]

Were you able to see the enemy's radar during killcam in CoD4 as well? I'm more or less assuming that it worked in that one as well and simply carried over to MW2, which also suggests they don't feel any need to alter it, if true.

[azrael1911]

Jan 1, 2010 6:01:50 GMT -5 Indy_Bones said:

Jan 1, 2010 5:19:58 GMT -5 mannon said:

You can of course make a private match with all the custom rules you want, you just then get stuck only being able to play with friends and it's hard to get enough friends online at the same time to play it unless you go out hunting up friends specifically for the purpose. Even then you're giving up exp.

I dunno, personally I think I wish there was some sort of custom mode where you could make a lobby with whatever rules you want and people could browse a list of custom lobbies and join the ones they liked.

That's the key problem, I only have 2-3 regular friends on PSN who play MW2, and even then arranging a game is a pain.

I like private matches, but hate the fact that I'm not getting XP.

I totally agree with the idea of custom lobbies, where you could input some search parameters for the game you want, and it lists everything available (or at least those that are closest to your search result if nothing exact is available).

that's what the rest of us call dedicated servers indy.

[mannon]

The designated lobby could actually still pick the best host among the players in it, though, thus not being quite the same thing as a dedicated server. Just because the custom lobby functionality is usually part and parcel with dedicated servers that does not make the two the same thing. We could have one without the other or both completely unrelated to each other.

[ssog]

Jan 6, 2010 12:37:48 GMT -5 mannon said:

Were you able to see the enemy's radar during killcam in CoD4 as well? I'm more or less assuming that it worked in that one as well and simply carried over to MW2, which also suggests they don't feel any need to alter it, if true.

Yes, you could, although the main reason it never got fixed is likely because it's not very well known and not very commonly bitched about (much the same reason why the Claymore glitch in FFA never got fixed).

[novanleon]

Dec 28, 2009 6:12:27 GMT -5 Indy_Bones said:

Personally I hate the killcams, having come from a VERY long CS background.

In CS I always used to record vids of my games and watch them back later to see where I was getting shot from etc. This enabled me to learn from my mistakes, but not adversely impacting on an opposing player who may have got into a good position.

The killcam is horrible if you're a sniper, as the whole premise is normally to find a spot that's well hidden, but with good vision of a certain area, and wait from someone to appear. With the killcam, this means snipers either have to constantly be on the move to a new spot, or hope that the people they do take out, aren't intent on instant revenge because they know exactly where they are...

As for the suggestion that it helps stop tactical loitering, I again feel that it's your own fault for being killed by someone tactical loitering, so why punish them for your shoddy play? People who play a slower paced, more tactical game rarely suffer much from campers, it's the nutters who sprint round the map 24/7 using akimbo 1887's/knife etc that tend to get caught out most - because they're not paying enough attention to their surroundings. Let's face it, it is a wargame - not an athletics meeting...

I'd love a new mode that takes elements from both core and HC and blends them together.

A) No killcams
B) Full health
C) Either no re-spawn or re-spawn delay of at least 10-15 secs
D) Friendly fire on
E) HUD active

Give me a mode like this and I'd be a very happy bunny.

I've been proposing this on the IW forums since the early days of COD4. Despite the popularity of the idea, IW doesn't seem interested.