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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 6:09:49 GMT -5
I had no idea Reach had a firefight mode until now; that sounds kinda fun. To be honest, you had me at not having a boobs DLC with a clumsy horde mode tacked onto it.
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Post by iw5000 on May 21, 2015 7:22:59 GMT -5
The end-game has boiled down to sitting at the mystery box for ten minutes finding one or two weapons that can still one-shot zombies past level 20. The zombies blandly gain health and spawn more on each wave. If you want to do well prepare to kite zombies in the same spot for hours on end. This. I hate Zombies for exactly this reason and preferred Extinction due to its defined end game. I really wish we got Exotinction instead. I don't think that's a fair assessment of some of the BO2 zombie games, especially the high rise building and the WW1 trench map.
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Post by iw5000 on May 21, 2015 12:33:59 GMT -5
I loved map making. I just didn't have any friends to try the maps with. :-(
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 0:57:02 GMT -5
Going back to horde mode, L4D's horde mode always felt like an afterthought. With limited resources and knowing that your team will inevitably get wiped out in a few minutes; having a random team is the last thing to ease your spirits. The amount of time it takes to set up a defense is often really long compared to the actual meat of the game. Worse yet, your efforts can all be for nothing if someone manages to find an exploitable spot on the map where zombies can't find you.
TF2's MvM suffers badly from randoms-screwing-everyone-over syndrome. The game's a solid horde mode game, but it's certainly not designed for TF2's casual audience.
Even if GoW's horde mode allowed for random online matchmaking I doubt a lot of people would want to sit down for over two hours in a single match. I imagine this game's fun with friends; but even if I had an XBOX I'd have to hope at least one of my friends is currently paying the game AND is willing to play horde mode. Everything else about the game is perfectly fine AFAIK, but do I really want to play this alone?
The neat thing about Killing Floor 2 is that it was designed around random players grouping together. If someone goes in over their head he'll get his ass kicked a lot of the time. That player will just die a lot and quit because they aren't getting any money or XP. Until then everyone else gets that guy's share of XP and a piece of his end-of-round bonus. To contrast that you can find the polar opposite happening. You can find yourself clutching every round because your team isn't very good, so you end up hording absurd amounts of money the more destitute your situation gets. You can toss some money to the less hopeless players, fan some out to everyone, or just not do anything and inefficiently buy more stuff. You can kite monsters around and scavenge stuff that spawns around the map, and even on a lower difficulty this can be really tense. It's one of the reasons I consider this franchise the king of horde mode.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on May 24, 2015 12:43:08 GMT -5
I vaguely remember UT'04's horde mode, but I thought it was pretty fun.
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Post by thegentleman on May 24, 2015 18:28:25 GMT -5
My assessment of Zombies in CoD was that it was always "It's easy until it isn't." There's a period of the first ten rounds where shooting zombies is absolutely boring (made worse by having access only to one of three weapons, usually), followed by a period where if you don't know some kind of exploit or aren't playing with someone capable, you get mobbed immediately and die. I never found it fun.
The survival modes in MW3 / AW were marginally more interesting to me because I could at least buy different weapons or perks / killstreaks, so the opening rounds were more dynamic. However, I was always surprised that the challenge seemed to plateau at a certain point. Once you get to about round 20, you never see anything new after that point ever again. I mean, hell, design two new enemy types that only appear at round 30 or 40. The mode always feels like a total throw-away afterthought because of it.
For that reason, I've always enjoyed the two-player Co-Op missions (MW2, MW3) and look forward to those most of all, because it gives my friend and I a designed, manicured experience that's well-considered. At this point in my life, I'll always pick the shorter, more polished gameplay types over the half-assed, randomly generated arena things that are thrown in for the sake of adding some number of imaginary "extra" hours to add back-of-the-box value.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 21:09:50 GMT -5
Spec ops missions were ten times as fun as any hoard mode they ever put out True, but the lack of random elements makes beating Spec Ops missions a one-time stand. Zombies may be significantly more flawed as a gametype, but at least it has enough random elements to keep replay ability up. Furthermore zombies can be played by a single player whereas many Spec Ops missions demanded a second player. (That is, unless Spec Ops somehow allowed a random to join your session in MW3 onward.) My assessment of Zombies in CoD was that it was always "It's easy until it isn't." There's a period of the first ten rounds where shooting zombies is absolutely boring (made worse by having access only to one of three weapons, usually), followed by a period where if you don't know some kind of exploit or aren't playing with someone capable, you get mobbed immediately and die. I never found it fun. The lack of enemy variety is particularly culpable for this. Oftentimes there's normal zombies, faster four-legged zombies with a short hitbox, and normal zombies that'll glow and mess you up if they touch you. That's the kind of enemy variety that makes combat boring. Most co-op/horde-mode games of this sort would add a really tanky zombie that would regularly spawn and force the players out of bunkered-down positions. It also punishes people for spreading out so much; a tough enemy can bring a team together. One major problem with CoD zombies is every zombie gets really tough after a while. Simply adding more hitpoints to enemies been a rather archaic means of making things more difficult, and ineffective. All it does is make the game less about twitch reflexes and covering your back, and more about kite routes. The players no longer need to improvise at all, and that's important for a good horde mode game. On the topic of tanks, the problem with George Romero zombie and The Warden was that they ignored the rule for tanks; they need a weakness. Dozers in Payday 2 have an 11x headshot multiplier, molotovs in L4D can be used to wittle down tanks' lifepoints, and Fleshpounds are particularly vulnerable to explosives. A well-designed tank should be able to be taken down alone by a veteran player. The thing that could pull CoD zombies into the next generation should be smarter zombies. Zombie abilities, or zombie behaviours are the thing that needs innovation. Zombies that actively flank you, or zombies that force you to check your back regularly in certain circumstances. Horde mode games have ticking time bombs; creatures that are more deadly if they're not dealt with in a certain way. You can try to pepper that guy walking about with a chainsaw, but be ready to kill him before he charges at you and saws you down in a matter of seconds. That's interesting.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on May 24, 2015 22:52:52 GMT -5
Spec ops missions were ten times as fun as any hoard mode they ever put out True, but the lack of random elements makes beating Spec Ops missions a one-time stand. Zombies may be significantly more flawed as a gametype, but at least it has enough random elements to keep replay ability up. Furthermore zombies can be played by a single player whereas many Spec Ops missions demanded a second player. (That is, unless Spec Ops somehow allowed a random to join your session in MW3 onward.) My assessment of Zombies in CoD was that it was always "It's easy until it isn't." There's a period of the first ten rounds where shooting zombies is absolutely boring (made worse by having access only to one of three weapons, usually), followed by a period where if you don't know some kind of exploit or aren't playing with someone capable, you get mobbed immediately and die. I never found it fun. The lack of enemy variety is particularly culpable for this. Oftentimes there's normal zombies, faster four-legged zombies with a short hitbox, and normal zombies that'll glow and mess you up if they touch you. That's the kind of enemy variety that makes combat boring. Most co-op/horde-mode games of this sort would add a really tanky zombie that would regularly spawn and force the players out of bunkered-down positions. It also punishes people for spreading out so much; a tough enemy can bring a team together. One major problem with CoD zombies is every zombie gets really tough after a while. Simply adding more hitpoints to enemies been a rather archaic means of making things more difficult, and ineffective. All it does is make the game less about twitch reflexes and covering your back, and more about kite routes. The players no longer need to improvise at all, and that's important for a good horde mode game. On the topic of tanks, the problem with George Romero zombie and The Warden was that they ignored the rule for tanks; they need a weakness. Dozers in Payday 2 have an 11x headshot multiplier, molotovs in L4D can be used to wittle down tanks' lifepoints, and Fleshpounds are particularly vulnerable to explosives. A well-designed tank should be able to be taken down alone by a veteran player. The thing that could pull CoD zombies into the next generation should be smarter zombies. Zombie abilities, or zombie behaviours are the thing that needs innovation. Zombies that actively flank you, or zombies that force you to check your back regularly in certain circumstances. Horde mode games have ticking time bombs; creatures that are more deadly if they're not dealt with in a certain way. You can try to pepper that guy walking about with a chainsaw, but be ready to kill him before he charges at you and saws you down in a matter of seconds. That's interesting. I dunno I've always found CoD zombies to be interesting. Weapon variety and easter eggs always had me coming back. Plus it's great for just doing something while listening to music because it's endless, both in rounds and different challenges you can come up with.
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banana
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Post by banana on May 28, 2015 12:35:16 GMT -5
Drift0r says the new dlc maps are very mw2-esque, besides the one he's currently playing on
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Post by Megaqwerty on May 28, 2015 15:25:51 GMT -5
The map descriptions all say small to medium so I'm not excited.
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Will
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Post by Will on May 28, 2015 15:27:04 GMT -5
I bet that highrise remake is the most MW2-esque.
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Post by banana on May 28, 2015 16:35:54 GMT -5
I bet that highrise remake is the most MW2-esque. I'm interested to see how it plays
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Will
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Post by Will on May 28, 2015 17:28:30 GMT -5
Disappointing that they picked one of the smaller MW2 maps. We see how well Atlas Gorge (Pipeline) plays - why can't they figure out that this movement system is awesome on large maps?
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Post by kylet357 on May 29, 2015 0:30:12 GMT -5
High rise isnt that small. It just feels that way because the indoor sections were fairly large while the spawning system allowed a lot of it to go to waste most of the time. It still wouldnt work for aw though I think. There's very little depth to the indoors of highrise. And the verticality worked well with mw2s mechanics, but is pretty meaningless with AWs mobility. A good number of chokepoints or important holding spots would probably mean fu ck all. That helicopter landing pad is probably gonna be the focus of the map. Highest point on the map, and you can see most of the map from there. I do also think this map will be decent for sniping, with those little spots in the indoor spawns where you can just sit back and snipe everyone.
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Post by kylet357 on May 29, 2015 13:33:36 GMT -5
True. Guess we'll have to wait until release to find out.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 14:00:40 GMT -5
Honestly I found the scaffolding off to the elevator side to be annoying. Not broken, but annoying. Someone had to go out of their way to jump and tightrope walk around that isolated part of the map for a solid minute. All that just so he can get the drop on you ONCE.
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Post by bucket415 on May 29, 2015 15:13:55 GMT -5
The hanging scaffolding off to the other side, which led to the ledge tightrope walk and climb to the roof, to lay a tac insertion and snipe or more importantly, infinity noob tube all game, was far more annoying.
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Post by hard1ine on May 29, 2015 17:22:44 GMT -5
Surprised they didn't pick Karachi. A lot of rooftops and upper level routes. It'd probably be better on AW than Modern Warfare 2.
High Rise just has a lot of interior areas. It's a great map but I don't know how it would play with Exos.
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Post by kylet357 on May 29, 2015 20:40:25 GMT -5
I think Karachi might be too high for boost jumping.
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Post by illram on May 30, 2015 12:04:48 GMT -5
They should have picked Wasteland right guys?
Guys?
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Post by jaedrik on May 30, 2015 12:33:22 GMT -5
They should have picked Wasteland right guys? Guys? BEST MW2 map 2009-2015
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Will
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Post by Will on May 30, 2015 14:26:11 GMT -5
SO many good boost jump spots on Wasteland
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 18:13:20 GMT -5
SO many good boost jump spots on Wasteland (Radio Voice): *LOSING BRAVO!* ( Eight people boost-jump over the giant hedge to protect/contest the point)
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banana
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Post by banana on May 30, 2015 20:22:32 GMT -5
Drift0r said Skyrise played pretty good
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Post by bucket415 on Jun 1, 2015 13:33:24 GMT -5
SO many good boost jump spots on Wasteland There would be so many more roofs to snipe off of. It would be amazazing.
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Will
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Post by Will on Jun 1, 2015 14:21:55 GMT -5
SO many good boost jump spots on Wasteland There would be so many more roofs to snipe off of. It would be amazazing. No longer do you need to use the nose of the helicopter to get up on the rotor blades - now you can boost straight up to them!
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banana
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Post by banana on Jun 1, 2015 15:28:22 GMT -5
Apparently gung-ho adds 100 ms of ads time
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Jun 1, 2015 18:05:31 GMT -5
Well according to Marv's chart hung ho affects certain optics.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Jun 1, 2015 19:22:58 GMT -5
I am not seeing anything anywhere about Gung-Ho doing that.
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Post by kylet357 on Jun 1, 2015 20:10:21 GMT -5
I talked about the ADS "stutter" a while ago, but I still can't tell if it actually affects ADS time (or if it's intentional either. Knowing SHG, it probably isn't). Hey, maybe this is a typo too.
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