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Post by iw5000 on Jul 10, 2015 7:55:04 GMT -5
And regarding Mannon's point, which is a key one.... "I just don't see the moral injustice of Bungie making GHorn more rare than other exotics and not letting Xur sell it. We've got RNG loot and rarer items are generally supposed to be either fundamentally better or at least special in some way"We all know Destiny is a RNG hybrid FPS game. We got that. And at least everyone on this board, knows how the RNG game works. You have to play a lot, to have an opportunity to get the good stuff. We all get this. The problem that I feel Mannon is missing? There are limits to the above. Any self respecting console video game, posing as supposed A-rated Hybrid RNG-FPS, has to set reasonable limits on the above looting process. It's one thing to have rare. It's even another thing to have super rare, that is special in some great way. But it's ENTIRELY another thing to set up the game's BEST gun on a pedestal, and then artificially screw with drop rates after the fact, to cover up for gun balance/design flaws. And when trying to hide those flaws.....make your hard working loyal fans, who dropped $100+ on this game and then put 1,000+ hours not even see a whiff of this gun. That's not 'RNG'. That's Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown. Mannno brings up moral injustice. I think that fits. What Bungie is doing is morally wrong. And say that as someone who isn't losing sleep over this, isn't angry, has gotten past even being annoyed and is still having fun. Saying that as someone who is now just commenting on this particular action/development Bungie took. It's ridiculously stupid to do to paying customers. And to reply to what someone will next say. Things like "Post just got one", "Witty just got one", and "Brad just got one". Correct. It's still out there being dropped, but in a gimped out ridiculous manner to keep it's numbers artificially low. Never said otherwise. But what does that say about a game where someone like Post had to put in 1,500 to 2,000 hours to get it? Witty had to put in 1,000 to 1,500 hours to get it. And people like me, mal, and at least another ten I know of, who have similar hours and still DON'T have it? That's not RNG. That's this....
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 10, 2015 7:56:05 GMT -5
To get back to the topic again, off of the above diversion.
Again, the point I was trying to make the past 30 posts isn't that I don't have a Ghorn and I am angry.
The point I was making was always about replying to Witty's original comments (that started this topic). IF people want the Ghorn tweaked, fixed, content adjusted to account for Ghorn OP'ness, or some future problem that might arise due to the OP'ness..... what needs to happen is the Ghorn needs sold. Via Xur. If it's sold, then it will get some traction into the entire community, see it's numbers reach a larger threshold. When that happens, Bungie won't be able to ignore the problem (if there is even one) anymore. As it stands now though, Bungie just writes off this issues as no big deal. The OP'ness being a small minor thing that only affects a few players. Kind of like soloing Crota. Also, there is no pressure on Bungie to force the gun to be sold. As I said, look at this board. People like Mannon right above, who doesn't even have the gun, And still doesn't want it sold.
If the community gives Bungie shit, they listen. Look at the recent mess with the new DLC coming in September. Bungie will react. But there is no community wide pressure for Xur to see it. People who have it, don't care. The YouTube community, mostly has it. And the masses who don't, they are spread to thin to get a good message out.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 10, 2015 9:39:36 GMT -5
I'm not missing your points, I'm disagreeing with them. I'm looking at this from multiple perspectives, not merely those of players who don't have the weapon yet. And I still don't really see this moral injustice you talk about.
We have a particularly OP weapon which is also particularly rare. Considering rarity usually implies power or at least some sort of uniqueness that seems to go hand in hand. The fact that it is so rare and awarded only by RNG is annoying, certainly. And I definitely think it would be good for the game if this was improved upon. However, I see no moral obligation for Bungie to make said best weapon in the game available to all players. It's not a necessary weapon by any means and it's OP nature really only applies to PvE anyway. For PvP it's only good, there are better.
I also don't buy you're assertion that it's a case of Bungie "artificially screw[ing] with drop rates after the fact". That supposes that Bungie must have originally not known GHorn was OP and then nerfed the drop rates in response rather than addressing the problem. You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't ascribe to that theory. I think it's far more likely that Bungie intentionally made the weapon both OP and rare. We actually have no evidence that drop rates have ever changed for GHorn and really the only changes to Xur's inventory that we can prove are the DLC expansions and the times when the normal Xur has been overridden with the "special" Xur and his hand picked inventory. It is possible that when GHorn was sold early on that it was normal Xur, but it's equally possible it was "special" Xur. Data miners have not been able to dig out his actual loot table, merely his loot schedule for a few weeks in advance, and they've now lost that too.
You can believe whatever you want and be as cynical of Bungie as you like. I don't really care. But I don't agree that what little evidence we have all adds up to your conclusions all the time. And I don't see any great injustice being perpetrated upon us.
As for your point I still see it as barely related. Yes, Bungie does respond to pressure at times. I don't see much of a push to have Bungie sell GHorn on Xur, though. It would likely take a massive amount of pressure for Bungie to respond at all to that, and I'm not convinced they would give us what we asked for rather than something else instead anyway. IF the community at large begged Bungie to sell it on Xur, and IF Bungie addressed it instead of merely ignoring it, and IF they actually sold it on Xur instead of doing something else entirely then it would put more GHorns out there and maybe... maybe that would generate some pressure to address the OP issue... I doubt it.
Personally I don't really care if Xur sells it or not, I just don't view it as much of a solution to anything. I've seen your arguments. I disagree with your conclusions. That's good enough for me.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 10, 2015 10:49:13 GMT -5
Fair points. Let me reply. 1. Regarding Morality. If you are making a RNG/Loot game, one main goal is to get the best 'stuff'. In Destiny, the one weapon that would certainly fit this description of a game changer is the GHorn. Other weapons give it a run, but this is, at least in PvE, the best. A game changer. So this is the best RNG/Loot gun to get. With that, a RNG/Loot game developer owes it's paying customers a reasonable opportunity to get a game's best gun for the $100 they paid for the game. Don't they? That's why you play. Take the extreme view here. What type of game would it be, if a RNG game never allowed anyone to get the best gun? They played them for fools. That's morally wrong. So that said, at what point are we approaching that? What is 'reasonable' here in Destiny? My contention is if you are seeing people hit 500 hours, 750 hours, 1,000 hours, even 1,500 hours without seeing this gun, something is wrong. Even to you Mannon, what is reasonable? 20 days of gaming to get the best gun?? Is that reasonable for a console game? Well, if you are just looking at this board itself, which is just a TINY little sample, we had easily half or more of the players going well beyond that. Something seems up: A. The developers are dumb and don't know how to design odds tables (I don't believe even bungie coders are THAT stupid) B. The developers altered something in response to an issue (my theory) 2. Want more weirdness? I know five people who went 500 to 1,000 plus hours without getting the Ghorn...and then once they got their first one, they got a second to drop within a week or two. Purely anecdotal, but I find that very strange. One of those people is right on this board, Witty Skorpion. To play 500 hours and not get a drop? One has to be talking huge odds. And then to hit this lottery right after? Strange. 3. Regarding Bungie screwing with the rates. I hear your points, I disagree. Here's why. Bungie made mistakes initially. Proof? Look at the complete screw up with the Vex, when it got into PvP. That wasn't just a mistake, it was a huge goof up. I've never seen a mistake like that in 8 years of CoD or Halo playing. The designers at Bungie aren't infallible. So that said, in a game of incremental changes, I feel they goofed up with the GHorn, like they did with the Vex. They OP'd it the PvE. And once it got out in the community they soon saw it's devastation. But unlike the Vex, the Ghorn's actions in PvE don't affect other players. So Bungie took the road of less trouble. They simply removed it off the Xur list, and reduced it's drop rates further, so gaming balance would stay reasonably in check. Out of sight, out of mind. Yes, you have a few people soloing Crota, ...but the masses weren't doing it. No need to fix. 4. Regarding the community voice. I agree, there is no voice for changing this now. I don't think people really the extent of the odds and math going on here. So few are complaining, that plus most of the community is very casual. if you don't even have most of the guns, you really can't understand how you are getting hosed with the Ghorn. And the people who have it? They don't care, they have one. This is not that big of deal to me, as much as you think. Ask the people I play with, if this stuff ever comes up when I play with them. It doesn't. But I do find it very fascinating at this point, from a design/gaming issue topic on a message board.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 10, 2015 13:20:34 GMT -5
Marko is on vacation, so I'll take care this week's Xur inventory:
Titan: Eternal Warrior Helm, Int = 69, Dis = 58 Hunter: Crest of Alpha Lupi Chest, Str = 140 Warlock: Purifier Ropes, Int = 85, Str = 79 Weapon: Plan-C Engram: Helm Telemetry: PulseR, FusionR, MG
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 10, 2015 13:28:15 GMT -5
Too bad Marko is not here this week. As a warlock fan he would have wanted to get the HoW Purifier Rope with pretty good stats roll.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 10, 2015 13:40:28 GMT -5
Too bad Marko is not here this week. As a warlock fan he would have wanted to get the HoW Purifier Rope with pretty good stats roll. This was actually a good week. Bungie released two DLC exotic armor pieces. We can try them now. When is Bungie going to release the four new DLC guns? Is there a reason they are holding them in?
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 10, 2015 13:43:28 GMT -5
Too bad Marko is not here this week. As a warlock fan he would have wanted to get the HoW Purifier Rope with pretty good stats roll. This was actually a good week. Bungie released two DLC exotic armor pieces. We can try them now. When is Bungie going to release the four new DLC guns? Is there a reason they are holding them in? If I understand correctly, there are only 3 exotic weapons from HoW, and they can only be acquired by: 1) Playing PoE at level 34 and 35; 2) Hope RNG can drop you an Elder Cipher upon the fall of final boss; 3) Follow the steps described here: planetdestiny.com/elder-cipher-guide/They won't be sold by Xur.
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 10, 2015 13:48:21 GMT -5
Too bad Marko is not here this week. As a warlock fan he would have wanted to get the HoW Purifier Rope with pretty good stats roll. This was actually a good week. Bungie released two DLC exotic armor pieces. We can try them now. When is Bungie going to release the four new DLC guns? Is there a reason they are holding them in? Same reason that's been brought up here multiple times...they're acquired via bounty, and Xur doesn't sell, and has never sold, anything bounty-related.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 10, 2015 13:48:44 GMT -5
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 10, 2015 14:40:13 GMT -5
This was actually a good week. Bungie released two DLC exotic armor pieces. We can try them now. When is Bungie going to release the four new DLC guns? Is there a reason they are holding them in? Same reason that's been brought up here multiple times...they're acquired via bounty, and Xur doesn't sell, and has never sold, anything bounty-related. Ok, I must have missed those posts on here. I wasn't on much the first few weeks of the release. I didn't know that. I googled for ten minutes online (5 to 6 articles) and it didn't say anything on how to get them.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 10, 2015 14:48:28 GMT -5
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 10, 2015 14:51:17 GMT -5
Nope. Never saw that. I'll read it later. Thank you.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jul 11, 2015 8:18:35 GMT -5
Thanks for posting Witty.
I do have Internet. Got the Robes (had them but a poorer stat distribution) and got Plan C too
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 17, 2015 4:04:39 GMT -5
Xur has arrived. Today's headline: Celestial Nighthawk, and no weapons! He is also doing exotic helm for the 4th straight week, guess that he and Cryptarch just enjoy tricking Guardians into burning engrams for Ram Exotic Gear Helm of Inmost Light [Titan Helmet] [94 Strength] [13 SC] Celestial Nighthawk [Hunter Helmet] [123 Intellect] [13 SC] Sunbreakers [Warlock Gauntlets] [105 Intellect] [13 SC] Exotic Shard [Material] [7 SC] Exotic Engram [Helmet Engram] [23 MoL] Curios Auto Rifle Telemetry [Consumable] [1 SC] Pulse Rifle Telemetry [Consumable] [1 SC] Machine Gun Telemetry [Consumable] [1 SC] Plasma Drive [Vehicle Upgrade] [23 SC] "Emerald Coil" [Vehicle Upgrade] [23 SC] Heavy Ammo Synthesis [Consumable] [1 SC]
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 17, 2015 6:39:28 GMT -5
Bungie tweeted that they're aware of issues with Xur's inventory. I'd expect to see his stuff updated to include a weapon at some point today. In the meantime, buy that Nighthawk if you don't have one already, and do it quickly. We've seen Bungie mess with vendor inventory before, and it sometimes results in all of that vendor's inventory changing, so the Nighthawk might not be there after the no weapon thing is fixed. Get it while it's hot!
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 17, 2015 10:36:22 GMT -5
Besides Nighthawk, I also picked up Sunbreakers because it has significantly better roll (105 at 36 light, 111 fully upgraded, 9 shy from the max possible roll of 120) than my current piece (92). A bit of a waste? Yes. But I have plenty of coins and can use another Exotic Shard, 6 coins in exchange for 13 stats increase is not too bad.
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Post by bradman on Jul 17, 2015 10:52:45 GMT -5
I hope the Nighthawk is still there when I get home. T'would be bullcookies if its taken out.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 17, 2015 12:29:39 GMT -5
I hope the Nighthawk is still there when I get home. T'would be bullcookies if its taken out. Your Nighthawk is safe: Bungie obviously has changed something related to Xur that resulted in today's unusual behavior. IMHO it is reasonable to expect Gjallarhorn to reappear in Xur's offerings, hopefully even before TTK is out.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 17, 2015 12:40:32 GMT -5
it also sounds like their views on the GHorn...were one of the reasons they removed it from the list.
If those factors/reasons are gone....then there is no reason to exclude it anymore? Put it back in?
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 17, 2015 12:45:00 GMT -5
it also sounds like their views on the GHorn...were one of the reasons they removed it from the list. If those factors/reasons are gone....then there is no reason to exclude it anymore? Put it back in? That's ptetty much a given IMHO. The questions are: 1) have they already put it back into the table? Today's odd incident hints that it might have been (hopefully) 2) how long do we have to wait before it is actually sold? I hope soon because year 1 players deserve to see how it feels like pre-nerf. It will lure lots of players back into the game, which should then help the TTK sales nicely.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 17, 2015 13:01:42 GMT -5
They can't safely alter his inventory? You mean like they did with Variks? Or Xur when he sold Strange Coins for Glimmer in the very first week?
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Post by wings on Jul 17, 2015 13:04:17 GMT -5
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 17, 2015 13:58:37 GMT -5
That's so fvcking insulting to every person who doesn't have one. No, seriously, no joking there. I just lost a ton of respect for the makers of this game.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 17, 2015 14:02:14 GMT -5
To be fair: there is no proof that picture is legit. Anybody can make a fake picture easily, e.g.:
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 17, 2015 14:15:18 GMT -5
To be fair: there is no proof that picture is legit. Anybody can make a fake picture easily, e.g.: True but Bungie claimed they couldn't fix Xur's inventory. You really believe that?
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 17, 2015 14:16:46 GMT -5
Witty, What you said is very true. But looking at the weird circumstances here... - first time a gun hasn't been released - Bungie claims they can't fix this, so no gun all weekend? really? - The patch update news came out last night. Timing? - The GHorn was addressed, which was huge news. So changes are coming. - The picture. I'm good with Photoshop. PS can trick anymore. But like yours above Witty, obvious fake. It's a screen shot of a picture. The bounderies are wrecked. The text bubble insertion on the DeeJ's is clear, failing to match up transparencies. Leveling differences. Plus another few things. This pic below...could be a PS, but it was well made, even to the point of TV scan lines which show up in pictures, as well they used the tilt/rotation of axis for a TV angle distortion effect.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 18, 2015 18:09:24 GMT -5
To be fair: there is no proof that picture is legit. Anybody can make a fake picture easily, e.g.: True but Bungie claimed they couldn't fix Xur's inventory. You really believe that? They claimed they couldn't "safely alter Xur." Which probably means they're not going to rush to get out a patch this weekend to fix Xur's inventory, because putting out an untested patch could have even worse effects.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 19, 2015 3:00:04 GMT -5
True but Bungie claimed they couldn't fix Xur's inventory. You really believe that? They claimed they couldn't "safely alter Xur." Which probably means they're not going to rush to get out a patch this weekend to fix Xur's inventory, because putting out an untested patch could have even worse effects. Or just use the Special Xur whose inventory is hand-picked or has everyone forgot he exists? They've lied before on technical issues before so I'm skeptical that this reason is genuine.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 19, 2015 16:12:13 GMT -5
Actually that just makes it even easier to fake. Just photoshop a screen cap, output the image to TV and take your picture. The reduced quality and fact that it's on a TV will obfuscate the picture and lend legitimacy even though it actually makes it easier to make it look real.
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