What can be added to Destiny to make it better?

[iw5000]

Dec 16, 2014 10:30:02 GMT -5 markopolo said:

Regarding the guns and armour, I think you might be overusing the term "obsolete" there IW... Nothing the DLC did made anything obsolete... all it did was take it down a notch. Just because you're not first anymore, doesn't mean you're last.

Here's why I say that Marko. The most valuable commodity in this game is time. Our time. If you have all the time in the world, you can be the highest/most advanced Destiny player in the world, as there is very little skill involved in getting to the top levels.

And with guns, most all of my Legendary and Exotics are obsolete. I had like thirty plus of them. Many not fully leveled up. So where should I spend my 'time' now? Leveling up guns that can get to 330? Or finishing off my older guns to get to 300? See my point? For example. My IB guns (Perun & Jolder), 20,000 glimmer on them and lonnnng hours of Crucible grinding, all for nothing. Why spend shards and time finishing them, when I have new 330 weapons at my disposal?

And right now, I have three 330 weapons, and my IBreaker soon to finish. 90% of those 300 Legendaries and Exotics are now junk. Obsolete. Why use a 300, when I have a perfectly viable 330?

[hebbnh]

Speaking of having all the time in the world, somebody hit 32 already. Had 3 Warlocks, ran Crota's End with each of them, then deleted one and started from scratch until it was high enough level to raid again. They did the delete, relevel, reraid thing 5 times to get all the gear and enough shards to upgrade it to hit 32 (also got an exotic helmet somewhere along the line). Crazy.

[mannon]

That's... insane... wow.

[iw5000]

Dec 16, 2014 11:25:34 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

Speaking of having all the time in the world, somebody hit 32 already. Had 3 Warlocks, ran Crota's End with each of them, then deleted one and started from scratch until it was high enough level to raid again. They did the delete, relevel, reraid thing 5 times to get all the gear and enough shards to upgrade it to hit 32 (also got an exotic helmet somewhere along the line). Crazy.

lol, time is nice!!!

I remember an old legend from our clan....Demonic Crusher. I think it was Black Ops II. Game came out and he had 11 days played after a month. I'm talking like almost 7 to 8 hours a day, every day, all week, straight through. Obviously he was unemployed and it was no long after that, that he melted down and disappeared.

[markopolo]

Dec 16, 2014 11:20:32 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Dec 16, 2014 10:30:02 GMT -5 markopolo said:

Regarding the guns and armour, I think you might be overusing the term "obsolete" there IW... Nothing the DLC did made anything obsolete... all it did was take it down a notch. Just because you're not first anymore, doesn't mean you're last.

Here's why I say that Marko. The most valuable commodity in this game is time. Our time. If you have all the time in the world, you can be the highest/most advanced Destiny player in the world, as there is very little skill involved in getting to the top levels.

And with guns, most all of my Legendary and Exotics are obsolete. I had like thirty plus of them. Many not fully leveled up. So where should I spend my 'time' now? Leveling up guns that can get to 330? Or finishing off my older guns to get to 300? See my point? For example. My IB guns (Perun & Jolder), 20,000 glimmer on them and lonnnng hours of Crucible grinding, all for nothing. Why spend shards and time finishing them, when I have new 330 weapons at my disposal?

And right now, I have three 330 weapons, and my IBreaker soon to finish. 90% of those 300 Legendaries and Exotics are now junk. Obsolete. Why use a 300, when I have a perfectly viable 330?

But again, they're not obsolete... they're just not as effective as they once were.

When I think "Obsolete" I think along the lines of nonfunctional.... something along the lines of that in a new update, enemies develop an immunity to kinetic damage (whatever the base, non elemental damage is named) Obsolete would be something that would prevent you from doing what you've done before. Your 300 damage weapon is not as effective as it once was, but that doesn't mean that it is not effective at all. Your TTK is longer, agreed. Your ammo needed to put something down is greater, agreed. But that doesn't mean that it now a hunk o junk. It's like a computer that is last years model... with 6 gigs of ram, instead of this years model with 8 gigs of ram. Your last years computer isn't obsolete, it's just slower.

As for the grind, I dunno amigo... maybe it's because I played MMO's before and are used to it, but it's almost standard fare that when a new expansion/dlc/addition comes out, the devs have to make it better than everything, lest people not play it. Like the head guy from Bungie said... DeeJay or something... "If you like your weapons just the way they are, keep them that way as they will still be very effective in any scenario" (not a direct direct quote, but something along those lines)

Now, I haven't played any end game content (VoG or CE) so maybe I'm talking out of my ass, and I wouldn't disagree... but is DeeJay wrong? Do you desperately essential need that 330 weapon... is it life and death to use it over the older 300 weapon? Is the new grinding of old exotics worth it, or are the old ones functional enough to get you by?

[iw5000]

Ok, lol, maybe some semantics here. But if I am doing a Nightfall, Raid, Weekly.....why use an Assault Rifle that has 300 attack, when I have one that has 330? There's no reason (other than elemental stuff) to go back and use some of my older guns. Especially all those that were never fully leveled/finished off. Again, like my Perun and Jolder. What good are they? Their attack is under 300, and they need materials to finish. They are junk.

IF I had know Bungie was handling DLC like this, I would have never bought them or wasted any time on them.


To answer you last question, ...no, you don't desperately need the 330 over the 300. That little damage buff isn't a deal breaker, especially when compared to things like Level differences ( 29 vs 30, vs 31) or tactics. And on lower stuff like bounties, makes no difference whatsoever. So in that regard, it's all good regardless what you use. But even so, why use 300 when you have a 330? All the guns mostly sound and look the same. It's not like any of the old 300's are like fun to use. So it's a gun. 330 > 300. If you can, go higher. Therefore, you kill faster, and get shit done quicker.

[mannon]

Then again unless you're doing the CsE raid is there really any advantage to 330 attack vs 300? I think unless you're fighting enemies >level 30 or so the extra attack doesn't really make much difference. So you're still better off with whatever weapon has the better base stats and mods up to a point.

[wittyscorpion]

I have quite a few 300 attack guns that I prefer until I find suitable replacements:

1) first of all: all VoG raid weapons are great;

2) Jolder's hammer from IB is my only legendary arc heavy and it kicks serious ass during Arc burn.I have "easy to find ammo" modifier so I constantly have full ammo;

3) The Devil You Know, Grim Citizen, Shadow Price, and Proxima Centauri II are still my go to primaies when I can't use exotic for primary. Atheon's Epilogue and Fatebringer are gradually taking over though.

[wittyscorpion]

Dec 16, 2014 12:05:58 GMT -5 mannon said:

Then again unless you're doing the CsE raid is there really any advantage to 330 attack vs 300? I think unless you're fighting enemies >level 30 or so the extra attack doesn't really make much difference. So you're still better off with whatever weapon has the better base stats and mods up to a point.

While one level up does not change your damage, the extra attack definitely does. So you should prefer 330 weapon to 300 if they are otherwise equivalent.

[wings]

Dec 16, 2014 11:25:34 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

Speaking of having all the time in the world, somebody hit 32 already. Had 3 Warlocks, ran Crota's End with each of them, then deleted one and started from scratch until it was high enough level to raid again. They did the delete, relevel, reraid thing 5 times to get all the gear and enough shards to upgrade it to hit 32 (also got an exotic helmet somewhere along the line). Crazy.

Yeah I wondered about this technique myself. Don't know how long it takes to unlock the Raid though. Sounds extremely tedious though.

[mannon]

Only up to a certain point, though. For example if you're level 30 and fighting level 4 enemies I believe attack does absolutely nothing to help you. I think it only starts helping you closer to your level, but I don't know at what point it kicks in or if it's a your level vs their level or strictly the enemies level kind of thing.

[mannon]

Does the raid unlock at the same point as the strike? If so it's not all that bad. Something like 3 missions and 3 bounties?

[wittyscorpion]

That's how the first reached level 30 during VoG days. He hit it on the same week as the VoG became available. At the time there was a good reason to do it though, because hard was also playable. This time? It is just nuts.

[wittyscorpion]

Dec 16, 2014 12:50:56 GMT -5 mannon said:

Does the raid unlock at the same point as the strike? If so it's not all that bad. Something like 3 missions and 3 bounties?

CsE is open to level 30+, no other prerequisites.

Because it is soloable and there are exotic chest available at the beginning, if you haven't reached level 30 it should be your top priority. And it is more important than ever to have 3 characters. You can just make them the same class as your primary, level them up to 20, and instantly get 2 more 30s. With Eris offering additional quests and bounties, and 10 bounty slots to reduce trips to Tower, this is easier than ever.

Now think of it, build character up and tear down is not crazy after all for people with no life outside Destiny. That way you can have a lot more chances at exotic and raid weapons as well.

If I were to start today and a week time to burn, that's probably what I am going to do. I can surpass most players in 1 week , higher levels and better weapons ...

[mannon]

Naw I'm not making 3 warlocks, especially not when my Hunter is 21 now. I know the XP grind isn't that great, but I don't care to repeat it. I don't really have the play time that any of the weekly caps are a burden anyway.

[wittyscorpion]

Dec 16, 2014 13:02:04 GMT -5 mannon said:

Naw I'm not making 3 warlocks, especially not when my Hunter is 21 now. I know the XP grind isn't that great, but I don't care to repeat it. I don't really have the play time that any of the weekly caps are a burden anyway.

The primary reason of why I am suggesting this: have a shot at the exotic chest at the beginning of CsE. That only takes 5-10 minutes and can be game changing.

Mal got a new Time & patience, and our friend Kakashi got a Dragon's Breath on his first attempt.

I am seriously suggesting this, especially to players who have limited play time.

[markopolo]

Dec 16, 2014 12:55:46 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

Dec 16, 2014 12:50:56 GMT -5 mannon said:

Does the raid unlock at the same point as the strike? If so it's not all that bad. Something like 3 missions and 3 bounties?

CsE is open to level 30+, no other prerequisites.

Because it is soloable and there are exotic chest available at the beginning, if you haven't reached level 30 it should be your top priority. And it is more important than ever to have 3 characters. You can just make them the same class as your primary, level them up to 20, and instantly get 2 more 30s. With Eris offering additional quests and bounties, and 10 bounty slots to reduce trips to Tower, this is easier than ever.

Now think of it, build character up and tear down is not crazy after all for people with no life outside Destiny. That way you can have a lot more chances at exotic and raid weapons as well.

If I were to start today and a week time to burn, that's probably what I am going to do. I can surpass most players in 1 week , higher levels and better weapons ...

1. That chest at the beginning is the #1 reason why I'm last tier leveling my vanguard eq... as soon as I hit 30 and am raid ready, I am hitting that raid for that chest only... but I know as soon as I am ready, they'll patch it and I'll be SOL

2. So... about you buying a PS4 and taking a week to level up your characters up with us lowly PeeEss4ers........

[wittyscorpion]

PS4? Not happening this year , just don't have time.

I don't think they will ever patch the chest. I believe they put them out there intentionally, glitches don't work in this manner

[iw5000]

Dec 16, 2014 12:49:22 GMT -5 mannon said:

Only up to a certain point, though. For example if you're level 30 and fighting level 4 enemies I believe attack does absolutely nothing to help you. I think it only starts helping you closer to your level, but I don't know at what point it kicks in or if it's a your level vs their level or strictly the enemies level kind of thing.

From what I tested. This is a recopy from another thread I posted this on.


---------------------------------------------


When your character is under-leveled, you get penalized. So if you are a Level 28,....you would get the following nerf to your attacks:

vs 29: -22.12%
vs 30: -38.89%
vs 31: -44.46%
vs 32: -100.00: You can't kill opponent.


If you are the same level as your opponent, or higher, you get 0 nerf to your attack. No reductions. You do full damage. How much damage you do, will depend on two factors: 1) The attack value of your gun, & 2) The level of your opponent. The easiest way to explain is by example.

Level 29 Warlock, using a 300 Vision of Confluence, and a 49 TraxCallum.

Level 2 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 88d
Level 6 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 115d
Level 18 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 234d
Level 22 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 297d
Level 26 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 297d


Each gun you use has an internal cap on it's damage. The Trax is low level (like 1 or 2). So it reaches it's max value/cap right away, versus level 2 opponents. Any opponent above Level 2, the Trax maxes out at 61d. It goes without saying, it's worthless against enemies with high health points (like a Praetorian with 5,000 health). A maxed out 300 VoC is high level (like 28), so it won't reach it's max damage cap/potential until around level 22 to 26.

But as you can see.....as seen by the above Warlock....Destiny will dumb down the VoC's damage as you kill lower and lower level opponents, making the two guns closer and closer to each other. But ultimately, never equal. The VoC will always have higher damage.

This is why on most bounties, it doesn't matter if you use a gun with a 240 attack, or a 300 attack. A 300-attack gun will only be doing around 20-25pt more damage per bullet (115 vs 95), against most bounty level opponents (which are around level 6). So yes, the 300-gun kills faster, but TTK is a minimal difference.

[wittyscorpion]

Just realized Eris quests won't help because they require higher level. But sti, with Eris bonties and 10 bounty slots, you can just do this new character on the side, do 1 or 2 missions a day and should be able to reach level 20 in a week or 2.

[wittyscorpion]

Dec 16, 2014 13:21:13 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Dec 16, 2014 12:49:22 GMT -5 mannon said:

Only up to a certain point, though. For example if you're level 30 and fighting level 4 enemies I believe attack does absolutely nothing to help you. I think it only starts helping you closer to your level, but I don't know at what point it kicks in or if it's a your level vs their level or strictly the enemies level kind of thing.

From what I tested. This is a recopy from another thread I posted this on.


---------------------------------------------


When your character is under-leveled, you get penalized. So if you are a Level 28,....you would get the following nerf to your attacks:

vs 29: -22.12%
vs 30: -38.89%
vs 31: -44.46%
vs 32: -100.00: You can't kill opponent.


If you are the same level as your opponent, or higher, you get 0 nerf to your attack. No reductions. You do full damage. How much damage you do, will depend on two factors: 1) The attack value of your gun, & 2) The level of your opponent. The easiest way to explain is by example.

Level 29 Warlock, using a 300 Vision of Confluence, and a 49 TraxCallum.

Level 2 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 88d
Level 6 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 115d
Level 18 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 234d
Level 22 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 297d
Level 26 enemy: Trax = 61d, VoC = 297d


Each gun you use has an internal cap on it's damage. The Trax is low level (like 1 or 2). So it reaches it's max value/cap right away, versus level 2 opponents. Any opponent above Level 2, the Trax maxes out at 61d. It goes without saying, it's worthless against enemies with high health points (like a Praetorian with 5,000 health). A maxed out 300 VoC is high level (like 28), so it won't reach it's max damage cap/potential until around level 22 to 26.

But as you can see.....as seen by the above Warlock....Destiny will dumb down the VoC's damage as you kill lower and lower level opponents, making the two guns closer and closer to each other. But ultimately, never equal. The VoC will always have higher damage.

This is why on most bounties, it doesn't matter if you use a gun with a 240 attack, or a 300 attack. A 300-attack gun will only be doing around 20-30pt more damage per bullet, against most bounty level opponents (which are around level 6). Yes, the 300-gun kills faster, but TTK is a minimal difference.

Heb posted the following Redddit link a while back, explaining how things work in a similar fashion, with a few additional info:

www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2ja75b/damage_and_attack_and_why_you_should_upgrade_your/

[iw5000]

I found that post to be confusing.

[wittyscorpion]

Dec 16, 2014 13:27:32 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

I found that post to be confusing.

Which part? I thought it was well done.

[mannon]

Seems pretty clear to me. Looks like all weapon damage scales with enemy level up to a cap established by attack value. For 300 weapons the cap would be enemy level 20 and for 330 it's 22. For mods 22 or higher 330 attack weapons would do 14% more damage per hit than 300 attack weapons. That's certainly nothing to sneeze at. Enemies level 21 would grant only 7% bonus and 20 and below would give no advantage at all to the 330 attack weapon vs 300... If I've got my math right.

Well that's definitely a pretty decent advantage, though not ground breaking, especially if said 330 attack weapon doesn't have as much impact or has other factors that are less beneficial than the 300 attack weapon's characteristics. I imagine it would matter more in situations where TTK is very important such as I've seen discussed often of VoG. But I can also see how some 300 attack weapons might still fare quite well vs 330 attack weapons, especially considering nearly all the 330 attack weapons I saw on the Vanguard vendor made me yawn. *shrug*

[iw5000]

Dec 16, 2014 13:53:45 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

Dec 16, 2014 13:27:32 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

I found that post to be confusing.

Which part? I thought it was well done.

It's not confusing to me at all, I understand it fine.

I'm just saying I thought that article made things unnecessarily complicated and still mixes some things up. See the next post, for an example.

[iw5000]

Dec 16, 2014 14:10:16 GMT -5 mannon said:

Seems pretty clear to me. Looks like all weapon damage scales with enemy level up to a cap established by attack value. For 300 weapons the cap would be enemy level 20 and for 330 it's 22. For mods 22 or higher 330 attack weapons would do 14% more damage per hit than 300 attack weapons. That's certainly nothing to sneeze at. Enemies level 21 would grant only 7% bonus and 20 and below would give no advantage at all to the 330 attack weapon vs 300... If I've got my math right.

My understanding is that a 330 weapon would do more damage to low level enemies (5, 6, etc..) than a 300. Why wouldn't it? A 300 does slightly more damage than a 260 to low level enemies. I've tested that before. High attack/damage value, always does more damage than lower weapons all the way down to enemies at level 1.

[markopolo]

Yea... I'm really annoyed that there was no new Shadow Price-esque high impact ish AR at the vanguard

[iw5000]

I think the best of all new Legendary to get (at least those available from vendors)...it is the Saterienne Rapier. It is similar in make to the Vision of Confluence, ...but has better slightly better stats. Smaller clip, but much better range and reload speed. But most of all, the gun has 330 damage. So it trumps the VoC. And if you can get the explosive damage rounds....this is the best gun imho.

This truly is a good buy,

[wittyscorpion]

I like the detailed info although I don't really need that level of the detail and can't commit them to my memory anyway. I just have the folowing takeways as guidelines:

1) More attack = better DPG;
2) Against non-trivial lower level enemies (say within 3 levels), higher level does not increase attack. In other words: level 31 guardians does the same damage to level 30 enemies as level 30 guardians;
3) Severe penalty against higher level enemies. This is the primary reason to level up. If there is no higher level enemies, then leveling up is not critical.

#1 -> Weapons with higher attack is preferred, provided everything else are equivalent. Note that "everything else are equivalent" part is not yet the case, so definitely keep the 300-attack weapons that you like (I would say all of them since it is a safe bet that you like everyone of them, considering that you bothered to upgrade all the way and commit the 18 AE. So hang onto them until you find a better alternative).

#2 & #3 -> Level 30 is good enough for non-raid and VoG (level 31 does give you a bit more defense, but that is likely to be negligible so I would prioritize armor talents and the right mix of discipline/strength/intellect over leveling considerations), while level 31 & 32 are desired for CsE.

[mannon]

Dec 16, 2014 14:36:24 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

My understanding is that a 330 weapon would do more damage to low level enemies (5, 6, etc..) than a 300. Why wouldn't it? A 300 does slightly more damage than a 260 to low level enemies. I've tested that before. High attack/damage value, always does more damage than lower weapons all the way down to enemies at level 1.

Your testing was a very low attack weapon vs a pretty high attack weapon and it showed them doing the same damage to very low level enemies then the higher attack one jumping up while the lower attack one staying the same.

The link explains that all weapons will do 7% more damage per enemy level but that attack establishes a cap on the % gains per enemy level. Attack divided by 15 = the enemy level where damage caps out. That means that given any two otherwise identical weapons with different attack values they will do the same damage up to the lower weapon's cap, gradually 7% more damage per enemy level until the higher weapon's cap, and then a flat % variance after that.

If you envision enemy level vs damage as a graph:

 +--------+--------+--------+--------+
 |        |        |        |        |
 |        |        |        |        |
 |        |        |        |        |
 |        |        |        |        |
 +--------+--------+--------+--------+
 |        |        |        |        |
D |        |   =======================| <- High Attack Weapon
a |        |  /     |        |        |
m |        | /      |        |        |
a +--------+/-------+--------+--------+
g |        /        |        |        |
e |       ____________________________| <- Low Attack Weapon
 |      / |        |        |        |
 |     /  |        |        |        |
 +----/---+--------+--------+--------+
 |   /    |        |        |        |
 |  /     |        |        |        |
 | /      |        |        |        |
 |/       |        |        |        |
 +--------+--------+--------+--------+

              Enemy Level