Who's doing Iron Banner this week?

[iw5000]

Dec 17, 2014 11:22:13 GMT -5 wings said:

I don't think the range factor is that important because the longest of ranges you could kill enemies with, you cannot see them despite being there. Go to Shattered Coast on Venus and see the Fallen drop near the vehicle link and head towards the near building that holds the Vex sensor where the Sevitor spawns. There should be a place where you can still snipe the Fallen and then notice you are too far that they are not on your screen? So I don't know what range means in this game.

Range might be important in the new Raid on Crota's End, especially if you are doing the 2nd stage solo. You are shooting stuff at a huge range there, going across the bridge. Maybe somewhere around 200 meters? That's far for gaming distances. A typical CoD sniper shot, a long shot, is around 60 to 100 meters.

[wittyscorpion]

Range definitely matters.

Why is Ice Breaker so great, other than the ammo generation? It is range = 100 (maxed out). Basically you can hit enemies at any range and pretty much get the same damage. The same can't be said for Praedyth's Revenge, which is a great PvP Sniper Rifle but underwhelming in PvE.

[wittyscorpion]

Dec 16, 2014 15:23:30 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

Full face off among Efrideet's Spear vs. Ice Breaker vs. LDR 5001 (the must buy new weapon from regular vendors?), with better stats in gold:

Stats	Efrideet's Spear	Ice Breaker	LDR 5001
Rate Of Fire	12	19	19
Impact	32	25	25
Range	88	100	68
Stability	28	24	52
Reload	64	62	66
Mag size	3	6	4
Elemental damage	Arc (can be reforged)	Solar	Arc

Looks comparable enough, without Ice Breakers great trait's of ammo generation and explosion, but also without the exotic limitation. Screw it, most likely I will grind for it...

IB goals for this week:

1) Reach rank 4 to buy SR;
2) Double bounties from IB and Crucible to level up weapons and armors;
3) Push towards Crucible Rank 3;
5) Get 50+ Crucible marks to get 150 for future weapon purchase;

LDR 5001 looks fine too, significantly better stability but sucky range. IMHO the IB weapon is probably better, because let's face it: for these hard hitting high recoil sniper rifles, we want higher impact and better range.

FYI: DestinyTracker just added a "gear compare" feature to make the above analysis a lot easier:

For example, the 4 best snipers in the game side by side with Eprideet's Spear: Praedyth's Revenge vs. Patience & Time vs. Black Hammer vs. Epriteet's Spear vs. Ice Breaker

Eprideet's Spear is identical to the Black Hammer in many areas, so you can imagine it as a poor man's version of Black Hammer without the exotic limitation.

Also, Silimar's Wrath vs. Atheon's Epilogue (Note: the Wrath available at IB has the exact same talent as Epilogue. So it is essentially an Epilogue clone with higher attacks but without the void elemental damage).

[wittyscorpion]

IMHO, the above analysis put the IB weapons' quality between Raid legendary and regular legendary. That seems to be consistent with the offerings from last IB as well (except for the sucky hand cannon):

Raid legendary >= IB legendary >= regular legendary

Basically IB legendary = good enough rewards for PvP enthusiasts (e.g.: mannon and me), completely optional (and probably not worth the grinding) for "PvEers".

[wittyscorpion]

mannon (and whoever else is excited about IB, I guess none at the moment ), we should talk about what classes to use. I am going to focus on Warlock this time.

1) Armors:

Exotic - Voidfang Vestments (great for PvP, can't pass this opportunity to finally use it )

For Striker: it enhances Axion Bolt, which is the most annoying grenade type Warlocks have.
For Sunsinger: it makes grenade ready at spawn, still quite useful.

Traits - focus on Discipline & Strengths (not much choice here with the limited 30 light armor pieces I own)

2) For Sunsinger, I plan to use PlanetDestiny's recommendation as the starting point

Movement - Fast Air Movement: Focused Burst Glide
Grenade - Crowd Control: Firebolt Grenade
Melee - Tankiness: Scorch + Flame Shield
Super - Tankiness: Radiance + Radiant Skin
Recovery/Armor: Arcane Spirit & Divine Order
Aggressive DPS: Viking Funeral & Touch Of Flame

I have a few debates here:

a) Radiant Skin vs. Fireborn: I think Radiant Skin is better because it gives me more output per super usage.
b) Touch of Flame vs. Gift of the Sun: it is tough to beat having 2 grenades per spawn, but Touch of Flame enhances the killing ability of everything: grenades, supers, and even weapons. Feels like a marginally better choice.

3) Voidwalker

Movement - escape artist: Blink
Grenade - Crowd Control: Axion Bolt
Melee - Soul Rip to get Energy Drain kills working towards the next Nova Bomb
Recovery/Armor: Arcane Spirit & Divine Order
Enhanced killing ability from super & grenades: Angry Magic & Vortex Mastery

Debate: not sure whether Soul Rip is the best choice. Surge seems to be a fine choice, with only "damaging" to trigger fast weapon and movement speed. On the other hand, once I start using melee I'd better go for the kill or die trying...

4) Weapons

CQC focused:

Primary: Suros Regime or Vex Mythoclast, 2 weapons I have with > 300 attacks
Special: shotgun (Found Verdict). Normally I prefer Fusion Rifle, but with Warlock builds I want to use melee more and shotty goes well with that. Also, Found Verdict is a fantastic shotty choice;
Heavy: Machine Gun (Corrective Measure: huge mag size and easier to find ammo which I hope means more bullets per ammo pickup)

Sniping focused:

Primary: Grim Citizen (mine has 3rd eye, which is super useful)
Special: Patience & TIme & Plan-C
Heavy: Corrective Measure

[wittyscorpion]

This Control guide is useful as well: planetdestiny.com/destiny-control-guide/

[wittyscorpion]

Regarding Silimar's Wrath, looks like it can also be viewed as a poor man's version of Nechrochasm.

[iw5000]

Witty

If you are playing IB with a Warlock, all the games are in the Control mode. That being the case, imho the solar grenade is better than the Firebolt grenade. The solar locks down an area. With two, you can really control paths and areas, especially when you know people are going to be having to cap a flag. Toss one grenade in a control zone...it can't be capped. Toss a second behind it, when they jump off. Free kills.

[wings]

Dec 17, 2014 16:17:37 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

Range definitely matters.

Why is Ice Breaker so great, other than the ammo generation? It is range = 100 (maxed out). Basically you can hit enemies at any range and pretty much get the same damage. The same can't be said for Praedyth's Revenge, which is a great PvP Sniper Rifle but underwhelming in PvE.

My point was that, because the game doesn't render enemies after a given range, you cannot take advantage of the Ice Breaker's range. Just seems to be another weird thing in the game.

[iw5000]

Dec 18, 2014 10:36:29 GMT -5 wings said:

Dec 17, 2014 16:17:37 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

Range definitely matters.

Why is Ice Breaker so great, other than the ammo generation? It is range = 100 (maxed out). Basically you can hit enemies at any range and pretty much get the same damage. The same can't be said for Praedyth's Revenge, which is a great PvP Sniper Rifle but underwhelming in PvE.

My point was that, because the game doesn't render enemies after a given range, you cannot take advantage of the Ice Breaker's range. Just seems to be another weird thing in the game.

Question...how do you know that? Just asking. I have never tried testing out maximum ranges for any guns.

[hebbnh]

I don't think I've ever sniped anything that was far enough away to actually hit the damage dropoff. I'll have to test that sometime, as Praedyth's Revenge has been my go-to sniper rifle ever since I got it. Great stability and quick fire rate mean you can hit 6 shots in a row very easily.

[wings]

Dec 18, 2014 10:50:28 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Dec 18, 2014 10:36:29 GMT -5 wings said:

My point was that, because the game doesn't render enemies after a given range, you cannot take advantage of the Ice Breaker's range. Just seems to be another weird thing in the game.

Question...how do you know that? Just asking. I have never tried testing out maximum ranges for any guns.

I tried it during Patrol on Shattered Coast on Venus and I went to the nearest area near the Servitor spawn where I could see the 'building' where the Fallen are deposited by the drop ship and could not see any Fallen whilse I saw smaller objects. I don't think it means the Ice Breaker's range is actually limited (unless this is Bungie's way of limited range rather than allow shots to connect at 0 damage?) because I could probably find a longer line of sight in Mothyards. Just a matter of having Fallen or Hive being in place for that to happen though. I'll try it some time soon. Taking a break after conquering the Pits.

[iw5000]

There is a range cap on almost all the guns. The problems is without private lobbies, or measuring devices, it's hard to put a number to anything.


if you do wish to find a good spot, I would suggest this. Do Crota's Raid solo. Do the bridge section. Shooting across the bridge looks to be at least a 150 meter to 200 meter shot. Try out your sniper rifles there, and see if there is damage drop off.

[wittyscorpion]

Good to know that Range may not matter.

I guess we can also talk about sniper preferences. We have hard hitting snipers like Ice Breaker which has a low rate of fire and high recoil, we also have laser like snipers like Patience & Time and Praedyth's Revenge which has low impact. Looks like it is a personal preference of which one you favor more.

I like former for PvE and latter for PvP. Praedyth's Revenge just feels weak to me in PvE.

[wings]

I don't have CE but I checked Shattered Coast and thr Fallen did start to fade as I found the spot where they no longer render. Basically where the three trees in a line are on the way to the Servitor spawn. Not many will notice this because part of it is downhill. There was no damage drop-off there though.

[wittyscorpion]

Dec 18, 2014 10:24:15 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Witty

If you are playing IB with a Warlock, all the games are in the Control mode. That being the case, imho the solar grenade is better than the Firebolt grenade. The solar locks down an area. With two, you can really control paths and areas, especially when you know people are going to be having to cap a flag. Toss one grenade in a control zone...it can't be capped. Toss a second behind it, when they jump off. Free kills.

I will definitely try that. In that case I'll go with Gift of the Sun to get two grenades.

Another tweak on the Sunsinger build I am thinking about: since I plan to go all in on shotty this time, I probably should favor agility along with toughness. I'll have my voidwalker build be "tanky" and sunsinger build more "slippery".

[mannon]

I don't have a lot of time to get into it and forget the names of everything. The perk that makes your grenades incinerate enemies and the one that extends the DoT is a really nice synergy. I used to really like it, but Gift of the Sun is just toooooo good so I no longer bother with either.

With Voidfang in PvP Gift becomes even better because you start the match with 2 grenades when most players have no grenades, no heavy ammo, and no super. You are at your most dangerous right at the start. Because of this I don't even go for the easy cap. I sprint directly to B. In fact I always start pushing forward just after the whole team is shown with the team flag because you can actually start moving before the screen fades up from black. Get a head start! GOGOGOGO! If you can get on B and be ready to dump those first two grenades in choke points you can almost guarantee your team takes B first unless the whole enemy team sprints for it. Not always foolproof, certain, and it's a bit paper, rock, scissors but even if it fails I usually take down a few guardians before they get me and stall them a bit.

I generally do run flame shield and radiant skin. Fireborn can be an interesting tactic, but it relies on using it as a surprise ambush or simply to continue pushing an attack without having to run back from spawn... once. I found in the last IB that a lot of enemies are wise to it, though, and will squat on your corpse waiting for you to pop it. I've actually been killed before the 3rd person revive animation even finished and put me back in control, wasting my entire super. Because of that and due to the fact that I tend to hold it in reserve waiting for just the right time to use it when running fireborn... I tend to prefer radiant skin. When I'm running that I no longer save it for revives and actually use my super more aggressively. It's very handy running to B from spawn with 2 grenades, tossing one, then popping super, and then steadily dropping about 5 more all over the place. All while having some tankiness, all the melee's you need, and just generally being a badass. It's not an "I win" button since you can easily get shut down if you let yourself die, but it's still pretty powerful.

As for glide is the burst only better than the third option that gives some burst and some control? I've not been able to determine via testing, but it seems like it gives more speed. As for stats I generally prioritize Discipline > Intelligence > Strength... mainly just because grenades. Grenades are the best thing ever IMO. ;3 My super is great, sure, largely because it gives me so many grenades, but you only get a couple. As for melee I don't do so much melee. A good melee smack now and then, sure, but not very many where I need it multiple times in a row. But with different tactics I can certainly see the benefit of getting fireshield up as much as possible.

As for my other stats I've generally gone from advice on here that says buffing armor is pretty pathetic in PvP only costing 1 or maybe 2 extra hits by enemies. I prioritize Recovery > Speed > Armor. Not sure that's still true or not in IB, but I have stuck with it even in PvE. (Mostly because I don't like messing with my perks very much. heh Although I clearly run fireborn in PvE pretty much exclusively... who wouldn't?)

[mannon]

PS. Going strait for B without helping to cap the near CP is a bit of a gamble. If it isn't working don't do it. Stick with the team and cap that first point with as many players as possible for the extra points, especially if you need captures for a bounty. But if you can pull off an early defense at B that can help. Also note I said defense. Capping B is important, but secondary. It is not worth rushing to B merely to die mid cap or even to cap it and have it immediately captured back from you. The point of rushing B is to give your team time to get there and capture it or to keep it from the enemy as long as possible and maybe get a few early kills.

[mannon]

I've been experimenting and I really do like the Viking Funeral & Touch Of Flame combo, but Gift of the Sun plus voidfang is just tooooooo good. I can't, even. Also the ability to keep charging a second grenade while being able to throw the first means I'm charging a fresh grenade 90% of the time instead of losing charge time because it's full and waiting to be thrown. Without voidfang maybe gift isn't quite so good, but I just can't give it up. I even tried going gift at the beginning and switching after my first death, and it just isn't worth switching for me. Honestly I can't believe how good gift+voidfang is... feels a little OP. >,> I'm actually opening matches a little differently now. I'm still sprinting strait for B most of the time, but I'm not actually going to the cap spot, at all. I just go for the choke points leading to it from the enemy spawn and setup an ambush. Try to catch a few players off guard, drop a couple grenades in the choke points then fight like hell while my team caps behind me. Sure, I die nearly every time, but unless my team is fecking off we almost always take B at the start. Hell sometimes we move on to triple cap because it starts a big fat steamroll... though I usually try to stick with holding B.


I really suck with fusion rifles apparently. Need work on that. I think I'll switch murmur over to arc tonight because it has better charge rate... see how that works. Or maybe I should try my Plan C even though it's the old one and not too upgraded, but if I'm gonna do that I might as well roll with my Invective. I dunno... So far not had much success with specials in Crucible or IB. I like primaries and MG. Though... there was a titan dropped a bubble on a B in Blair Witch... I mean Blind Watch. ;3 (I don't know my my brain waints to substitute one for the other, but it always sticks in my head...) Heedless of good instincts I rushed in with my fusion rifle charging and though I was blinded the FR went off, I hit melee and glide jumped out, turn around and yep... got 'em. ;3 Don't know if the FR did it or the melee finished him off... don't care. Was probably a stupid idea, but I did it anyway. Anyway, good times...

[n1gh7]

I don't really think the murmur is too good. Because of its ability to change between elemental damages and charge archetypes (arc is fast charge, low impact and solar is slow charge, high impact), Bungie seemed to have made it slightly weaker in all areas. Obviously it benefits from having more attack points in IB, and flexibility in PvE, but I think the 77 Wizard or Light/Beware end up being more useful in PvP as they are stronger within those charge archetypes.

Anyways, IB has gifted me with the Truth. I am forever in its debt, as I grind my way to rank 4 while trying to do the Thorn exotic bounty.

[wittyscorpion]

Did a binge gaming session and got to rank 4 as well. Acquired the Esprideet's Spear and experimented with it for 5 minutes. Don't like the default scope, hopefully the low zoom one (2nd option) and the "snappy" one are more to my liking. It does seem to hit hard with fine stability.

Vex Mythoclast is my PvP primary weapon of choice now, more than Suros Regime, because I was able to win 1 on 1 primary gunfights more consistently.

Gift of The Sun does feel more useful than Touch of Flame. Touch of Flame makes the grenades more lethal, but the ability to have 2 grenades instead of 1 at the spawn is just too tough to beat.

As a mediocre player, Voidwalker is far easier to use than Sunsinger. Sunsinger is great with the 2 grenades and flaming shields, and in experts' hands the Radiance can be put to use effectively. Me on the other hand is not very good at a) use melee effectively, and b) take full advantage of Radiance.

Finally got the IB Warlock bond! It looks great.

[mannon]

I need that! Just rocking my New Monarchy for now. I've been running Sunsinger almost exclusively since I unlocked it and have only played Voidwalker enough to finish out the subclass. I haven't tried it in this IB, but I'm a little nervous about even trying. Last IB I did some and honestly everything threw me off because it was different. heh I couldn't even connect with the super.

[wittyscorpion]

Key stats for Iron Banner grinders: www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/85309273/0/0/1

Tempered Buff
(assumed from calculations of last IB found on Reddit)
Tues: 10%
Wed: 15%
Thu: 25%
Fri: 40%
Sat: 60%
Sun: 100%
Mon: 150%

Rep Per Rank & Total (DestinyWiki)
R1: 100
R2: 1,200
R3: 2,400
R4: 2,400
R5: 2,400
Total: 8,500

Bounties:
Assumed Bounty Rep Amount: 50, 50, 75, 75, 100, and 100.

Win=25 rep
Loss gets you a medallion for your next win
Madallion=15 rep

[hebbnh]

I don't know where they came up with those numbers for bounties and medallions, but they're wrong. All IB bounties are 100 rep -- you can check this easily in the Destiny app. Medallions are 20 rep. Buff percentages and rank numbers are correct.

[mannon]

Do the IB items (Emblem, Shader, Class Armor Slot) still give 10% bonus and do we know if it's additive or multiplicative?

In other words is it A or B? (Monday 150% & Two 10% items):
A. Rep Gain = Earned Rep * (150% + 10% + 10%)
B. Rep Gain = Earned Rep * 150% * 110% * 110%

[wittyscorpion]

Dec 22, 2014 15:42:10 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

I don't know where they came up with those numbers for bounties and medallions, but they're wrong. All IB bounties are 100 rep -- you can check this easily in the Destiny app. Medallions are 20 rep. Buff percentages and rank numbers are correct.

Yeah, these are wrong. So corrected version:

---

Tempered Buff

Tues: 10%
Wed: 15%
Thu: 25%
Fri: 40%
Sat: 60%
Sun: 100%
Mon: 150%

---

Rep Per Rank & Total

R1: 100
R2: 1,200
R3: 2,400
R4: 2,400
R5: 2,400
Total: 8,500

---

Bounties: all reward 5000XP and 100 reps

---

Win/loss

Win=25 rep

Loss gets you a medallion for your next win
Madallion=20 rep

[hebbnh]

Dec 22, 2014 15:54:23 GMT -5 mannon said:

Do the IB items (Emblem, Shader, Class Armor Slot) still give 10% bonus and do we know if it's additive or multiplicative?

In other words is it A or B? (Monday 150% & Two 10% items):
A. Rep Gain = Earned Rep * (150% + 10% + 10%)
B. Rep Gain = Earned Rep * 150% * 110% * 110%

It's B.  I was getting 333 rep per bounty on Monday of the previous Iron Banner while I had all 3 bonus items on.  100 x 110% x 110% x 110% x 250% = 332.75 which rounds up to 333.

[mannon]

Nice.

[mannon]

Wait... 250%? So the tempered buff isn't a 150% multiplier but gives you an additional 150% on top of your 100 points?

[wittyscorpion]

Dec 22, 2014 16:27:14 GMT -5 mannon said:

Wait... 250%? So the tempered buff isn't a 150% multiplier but gives you an additional 150% on top of your 100 points?

Yes. Otherwise Tuesday would be 10% instead of 110% and that just does not make sense

Welcome to Monday grinding: where you are almost 3 times as effective as Tuesday.