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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Dec 28, 2014 11:55:52 GMT -5
I would argue full man super saiyan mode is extremely competitive.
Can you say 6 man team of everyone with Dead Silence and Sitrep Pro(And immune to all KS bar Recon Drone/MOAB/Vesto. Air Strikes still works but loses edge against team of full Assassino)? Also even if it's just one dude running super saiyan mode, a dedicated team slayer is never that bad(YT has given them a bad name) so as long as everyone else is coordinated to keep objectives in mind.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Dec 28, 2014 13:09:34 GMT -5
The opportunity cost of not EMP chaining is not as high as you think.
Assassio Pro was by far the #1 tier two perk so the main advantage EMP chaining offered was a kill streak suppressant. Super Saiyan has that covered with everyone being immune to all but a handful of enemy kill streaks.
Also Super Sayian mode allows for easy MOABs that come with free EMPs.
Super Saiyan was far from being a joke moo-c.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Dec 28, 2014 14:06:07 GMT -5
I'm not flat out saying Super Saiyan trumps EMP chain cheez tactics, I'm saying it's not a terrible joke that you seem to think it to be. It's god in all kill based game modes(TDM/KF/FFA) while still remaining competitive(Not always the best but competitive) in objective based game modes. The only flaw with Super Saiyan it that it's extremely skill based, the better you are, the better specialist is as opposed to a free EMP. Results may vary. Objectively false. And that's what I'm trying to get across. Not trying to convince anyone that Support and Assault suck. Edito so this threadjack doesn't go on forever: I think you are wrong about specialist being worthless in MW3(It was in Spoopy OP but not MW3) and I think you should reconsider, that is all. That's the long story short.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 28, 2014 15:10:28 GMT -5
You shut your mouth. MW3 Specialist was so good. Ghosts Specialist was a joke in comparison.
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Post by thegentleman on Dec 28, 2014 15:26:06 GMT -5
I dunno. I liked MW3 a lot in terms of its meta-game even though everyone gave it holy hell at the time. One of the best uses I found with specialist was utilizing a few things it offered as a dedicated defender in objective modes and allowing me a little more class flexibility once I had hit a few kills. I remember using an L86 with impact, slight of hand, and scavenger to really good effect on Terminal. Once you had all of the perks, you did have a crazy advantage and if you played hyper-defensively you really could be a force multiplier in lessening the manpower burden on the flag nearest your spawn. One man's opinion and all that.
Now, if it were between 8 people running specialist and 8 people running support, my money would be on the support team.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Dec 28, 2014 17:06:40 GMT -5
Oh hay TMARTN. One shot reliability>Range Also Specialist was OP(Sitrep+DS hello?) and arguably the best. Both Support and Assault could get hard countered by Blind Eye/Assassino/Stinger. It had 9 pellets, and better damage over range, the only thing Damage had on Range was within 400 units, and if you can't hit 4 out of 9 pellets that close you're a shit player
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Dec 28, 2014 18:09:44 GMT -5
if you can't hit 4 out of 9 pellets that close you're a shit player Good one. The way you have it set up anyone who doesn't agree with your statement is a bad player and you're directly passive aggressively implying you're objectively right simply because you're better than me. Taking the condescending route I see. On paper you assume 0 lag(in mw3 btw so good luck), enemies that don't move, no cover, perfect aim every single time, and most importantly a non-rng spread pattern. In theory even if you hit a center mass shot all 9 pellets could deviate to small corner of your retcile and whiff entirely. You seem to think dictating spread pattern is 100% skill and not being able to control rng pellet spread is a mark of a poor player. I suggest you read the OP to this thread: denkirson.proboards.com/thread/5077/shotgun-ttks-why-shotguns-suck?page=1again. Damage is far more practical in real practice. Range helps you outside the ideal shotgun engagement range where they are already noncompetitive. If you are truly controlling the engagement DMG will come into play much more than Range. DMG will help you in getting 1HK0's in CQC rather than attempting to pick people off at the edge of your respective reach with the Range proficiency. A 2HK@149 RPMs(And thats assuming the majority of your pellets hit at that range) is not a competitive kill speed, that's not the range you as USAS user want to often engage; admittedly they are unavoidable sometime due to spawns and what not, however more often than not those engagements should be avoided or that's the range when you whip out the MP9. Damage helps you within the shotgun niche of CQC while range makes you slightly less noncompetitive at mid range. Maybe if Range increased base DMG enough for shotguns to be competitive enough in mid range it would be better but as it currently stands shotguns are still noncompetitive within the range added by the Reach proficiency against their SMG peers. Long story short: DMG = More consistency within reach. Range = More reach.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Dec 28, 2014 18:15:11 GMT -5
Except Range has MORE DAMAGE than DAMAGE over the same distances, except for 400 units in which it can be a 3 pellet to kill. But if that's what you're going for the SPAS, KSG and 1887 are all better at doing that
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Dec 28, 2014 18:37:37 GMT -5
Except Range has MORE DAMAGE than DAMAGE over the same distances, except for 400 units in which it can be a 3 pellet to kill. But if that's what you're going for the SPAS, KSG and 1887 are all better at doing that I was talking about DMG VS Range on shotguns as whole with just the USAS being the choice example. Also remember: Except Range has MORE DAMAGE than DAMAGE over the same distances, except for 400 units in which it can be a 3 pellet My point was in my previous post was that shotguns especially should be played to their strengths. I would argue that those 400 units are the most important units for the USAS as they help the USAS in it's CQC niche. A 1HK at close range for a shotgun is more important than trying to 3HK at 50 feet. Shotguns in CoD need to be played to their strengths,. Damage helps shotguns in their niche more than Range; simple as that. TLDR:With shotguns it's better to play to their strengths rather than to try and mod them for something they will never be competitive at. Edit: Here's it put even more simply. DMG helps shotguns at close range, range does not. EditoX2: Let's take your chart into account for another easy summary. A Range USAS-12 has 875 units of reach, a DMG USAS as 400 units of 3 pellet kill range. The DMG USAS is only superior in ~45% of the Range USAS 12's range. On paper Range wins, however what numbers don't tell you is that DMG helps in the more critical on the 45% of the USAS-12's reach as you're not going to get many kills often in the 700-875 unit range. More often than not your kills will be closer to the 400unit range.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Dec 28, 2014 18:49:02 GMT -5
I would argue the complete opposite. USAS can fire twice as fast as the SPAS and has more pellets. If you wanted a reliable OHK shotgun the SPAS with Damage has the same 3 pellet kill range as the USAS with Damage AND Range. A USAS can fire 18 pellets in one second, whereas the SPAS, KSG, or 1887 can only fire 8/9 pellets Also interestingly 1887 is terrible, putting it on a spreadsheet, the 1887 is inferior in almost every way to the SPAS or KSG
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Dec 28, 2014 18:50:37 GMT -5
Read my edito's Edito: Not asking you to agree with me, just asking you to not think people who use dmg are bad. Spread sheets don't give the whole story. I would argue the complete opposite. USAS can fire twice as fast as the SPAS and has more pellets. Regardless, a 2HK at 149RPM is not competitive at any range. Play to your 1HK0 strengths. RoF is for engaging multiple boogies.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Dec 28, 2014 19:02:46 GMT -5
I'm not saying damage is bad, it's just a USAS is much more forgiving than the SPAS, KSG or 1887 and that that's the USAS's strong point, well that and the sprint duration. USAS also has 9 pellets compared to the 1887 or SPAS's 8. So it's also more forgiving of spread, even though it has the same spread as the SPAS
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Post by dunsparceflinch on Dec 28, 2014 19:04:20 GMT -5
Except Range has MORE DAMAGE than DAMAGE over the same distances, except for 400 units in which it can be a 3 pellet to kill. But if that's what you're going for the SPAS, KSG and 1887 are all better at doing that This. With Range, the USAS could flank at Assault Rifle range.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Dec 28, 2014 19:23:32 GMT -5
Okay lets bring stats in this again.
A DMG USAS is a 4 pellet HK at 507 units, a Range USAS is a 4 pellet kill at 500 units with a overall reach of 875 units.
With these numbers we can conclude that a DMG USAS is better/just as good as a Range USAS within 507 units. So for 45% of the Range USAS's effective range it is inferior to the DMG USAS and for 58% the Range USAS's effective range it's range its inferior/just as good the DMG USAS. THe USAS being a shotgun should be played in CQC combat, the majority of kills will be gotten within the 1-507 unit range rather than the 508-875 unit range. DMG will come into play in more instances than range.
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Post by kylet357 on Dec 29, 2014 0:29:24 GMT -5
You also have to take into account the specialist package, which will give you range as well. It's why I used damage on all of my shotguns (expect the Striker, because I use it with Recon and it's much more forgiving than the others if your shots don't hit.
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Post by cashmoves on Dec 29, 2014 11:38:05 GMT -5
in S&D, getting specialist with the USAS on the right map with the right teams (the other team sucks, your team sucks even worse) was the closest you could ever get to godmode in the cod series. for you to get it, you were likely already destroying, once you had it, it was ON son. (this probably also applies to the rapidfire waterpistol, but you just didnt get 'that feeling' with the waterpistol that you got smoking bros with the USAS).
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Dec 29, 2014 13:29:00 GMT -5
You also have to take into account the specialist package, which will give you range as well. It's why I used damage on all of my shotguns (expect the Striker, because I use it with Recon and it's much more forgiving than the others if your shots don't hit. I already did. For the SPAS and KSG with damage they become 3-5 and 3-6 Pellets to Kill, with USAS it becomes 3-15 pellets to kill and has less damage over range then range. So for the SPAS and KSG that would require damage specialist bonus is just that, a bonus. USAS on the other hand benefits more from range and thus it'd be better to run something other than specialist. Also 1887 was garbage, its 3HK range with damage is less than SPAS and the same as KSG, both of which have smaller hipfire spread and the KSG had 1 more pellet.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Dec 29, 2014 14:03:23 GMT -5
TFW the 1887 was never good because it never got the big ammo bug.
;_;
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Post by kylet357 on Dec 29, 2014 14:13:44 GMT -5
TFW the 1887 was never good because it never got the big ammo bug. ;_; It does have a 4 pellet kill maximum going for it with Damage, and that's pretty damn good.
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Post by zimpoo on Dec 29, 2014 15:38:06 GMT -5
Post patch it could 2 pellet kill close range with Damage.
I had so much fun with this lever action beauty, RIP shotguns ;(
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Dec 29, 2014 17:59:51 GMT -5
TFW the 1887 was never good because it never got the big ammo bug. ;_; It does have a 4 pellet kill maximum going for it with Damage, and that's pretty gosh darn golly gee whiz good. Which is ultimately pointless because SPAS kept the 4 HK until like 621 units and didn't have a godawful spread AND had attachments like extended mags so you had to reload less. EDIT: which is funny because I used the 1887 the most even though I knew other shotguns were better.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Dec 29, 2014 18:25:20 GMT -5
honestly i just think the usas is a crappy gun like all the mw3 shotguns. Disagree. If MW3 shotguns had built in damage, and MW2 didn't have SP MW3 shotguns would be better than MW2, Except the MW3 AA12 that was bad.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 29, 2014 18:29:05 GMT -5
I used the 1887 the most even though I knew other shotguns were better. Because it's badass. Obviously. Badass should be a bar stat in AW. Most important stat. Except the MW3 AA12 that was bad. Pre-patch MW3 AA12 was a destroyer of worlds.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 29, 2014 18:53:01 GMT -5
I don't think anyone here disagrees that the MW2 shotguns were not balanced (relatively speaking).
The shotguns in MW3 were bad in comparison, but strong enough to be functional within the context of that game.
Like all shotguns, however, they of course could have been better.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Dec 29, 2014 18:57:36 GMT -5
I used the 1887 the most even though I knew other shotguns were better. Because it's badass. Obviously. Badass should be a bar stat in AW. Most important stat. Except the MW3 AA12 that was bad. Pre-patch MW3 AA12 was a destroyer of worlds. Remember kids, the AA-12 was nerfed because the MW3 engine allegedly couldn't handle the pellet count. T-thanks Ghandi.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 29, 2014 19:02:59 GMT -5
I had a better video that I linked in my shotgun thread where the guy had akimbo Rangers doing the same thing, but it's since been removed.
Obviously, Youtube couldn't handle the pellet count.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Dec 29, 2014 19:08:43 GMT -5
Disagree. If MW3 shotguns had built in damage, and MW2 didn't have SP MW3 shotguns would be better than MW2, Except the MW3 AA12 that was bad. And the Famas would've been the worst Blops AR if it only had 200 RPM. I legitimately believe that MW2 shotguns were totally balanced as secondaries despite being the strongest iteration of shotguns in the series in their own right. I think shotguns in MW3 were wholly outclassed and if you're trying to convince me otherwise using stats that don't exist, it's not working. Well considering MW2 shotties without SP existed and MW3 shotties with damage existed. It's not like they're out of nowhere.
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