Flawless Crota's End

[malgato]

This is pretty impressive. A flawless solo run (27 minutes start to finish) by a level 32 Titan.

Dumien, I'm looking at you...

[mannon]

Not watching because spoilers... I do assume this is rather impressive, but... This type of thing is making me question one thing about Destiny's current and future end content. Can we really still call this a raid? With VoG it started out very much to be this multi hour thing and then once people had it down to like 45 minutes hard mode came out and it seems like that is still considered pretty challenging, but CsE while I have hear it is very fun to play with a full fireteam and do it traditionally... it just doesn't seem like the challenge is there.

No "raid" in any MMO was ever something you could solo unless you were hugely over leveled for it. The term was, in fact, never really applied to the content, but rather to the organization of players to defeat the content. A raid, by definition, was a lot of players getting together to achieve a common goal. In fact it implied not merely one group/party/team, but several. If you did it with a single group then it wasn't an actual raid... Bungie borrowed the term for this content where you have a double sized fireteam and it's supposed to represent the challenge you have to face, but it just seems less and less appropriate to me and more like just more Bungie hyperbole.

Is it sadism that makes me hope for raids to live up to the challenge that term implies? I don't think so. I just don't think what is currently THE end game content in Destiny should be possible to do solo. Maybe parts of it... I can understand that. As long as the rewards are limited. Sure give us the first chest or two, I don't mind that. But then we should never be able to get a full set of raid gear from those chests alone. We should have to finish it, for real.

Then again is it possible for a guardian that isn't pretty much already maxed out to solo the whole raid? Are these guardians technically over leveled for the content? I don't know.

[malgato]

I think Bungie has some learning to do. I don't think you can call this particular case one of being overleveled. He does have all the best gear - Saint-14 helm, Gjallarhorn, Black Hammer. It is just a really cleanly run attempt. But it demonstrates that the content is definitely soloable.

Bungie is still figuring out how to do this. I think this raid is pretty fun, but it doesn't seem as challenging as Vault of Glass.

[iw5000]

I've had the same thoughts Mannon. My understanding of what a Raid is, going in, was explained to me as being the height of gaming, the best of the best, with a group working to utilize all the organization, tactical and equipment to their best. I've found this to not exactly be the case with Destiny. The VoG, especially on Hard, sort of seemed to accomplish this. The Crota Raid? In a way, it feels like a glorified Nightfall mission.

But.....

....it's still fun though. I am having a very good time trying to do it solo. It was fun getting the 1st and 2nd stages done (even if glitching) and the 3rd and 4th parts have been very rewarding. Lots of fun there and more fun that solo'ing a NF. And doing it with a group, completing Crota has still been fun too. More people involved, the more fun one has.

I think YouTube is the problem. Everyone knows everything within minutes of a video being posted. And then tweaks and improvements are made, which get uploaded to everyone too. The learning curve is reduced by 99%. If YouTube didn't exist, that type of info dump stuff on the net, I would probably still be calling Crota impossible to finish. But YouTube does exist. I know what everyone else knows. Most of what that guy did, I have done. And I am not that good of a Destiny player. Then again, not sure how you define what is good in this game? It's mostly just 'time spent' in determining what you have (not skill), and for the other parts? Everyone talks about this and that, and what they know....but everyone just follows the same YouTube/info route. Everyone copies others and does small tweaks. Other than the first person who figured it out, everyone is just a copying. There's very little 'new' in this game, in terms of 'I figured this out'. That might be a small gripe of mine. The just sheer amount of everyone talking about what they know....like it's special, but in reality, everyone is a copy of a copy off of Youtube. Even the 'tubers. They are all just copying of another person.


I think that's what Bungie needs. More stuff that maybe requires skill (not learning pattern moves). For example. That guy who did the Raid with the new crappy sniper rifle. THAT is skill. Having YouTube tell you where to stand, where to go, not skill. Maybe for another fix, add more random elements to the mix, so that the patterns can't be copied via YouTube. That would solve that issue. Then last, make the teammates necessary for completion.

[hebbnh]

Agreed, but only to an extent. VoG on normal seemed to offer much more of a challenge, at least when cheese wasn't used. Then again, most of us were level 26 or 27 when we first started running it, and didn't have top tier weapons either. A lot of us had only our starting subclass maxed out, if that, and were still figuring out and getting used to a lot of the game's mechanics. That all makes a big difference. Even on hard, VoG isn't really hard anymore because the patterns have been figured out and everyone is familiar with what to do and has the weapons to get their job done.

I think if Crota's End and the VoG had their release order reversed, we'd be saying almost the exact opposite of what we're saying now. I say almost, because the puzzle solving in VoG is definitely more in-depth than anything in CE. In VoG you had to figure out oracles, relic usage, how to take down the Templar's shield, find a route through the maze and jumping puzzle, and all the portal stuff with gatekeepers and Atheon. In CE the only real puzzles are how to form and cross the bridge, how to open up the Deathsinger room so you can kill her, and how to damage Crota. It's much more straightforward, but who knows, maybe Bungie has some new puzzles in store for us on hard mode.

As far as upping the skill requirement, I don't know about adding randomness to the encounters. There's enough RNG in the game as it is, although the random teleports for Atheon did add some challenge to that fight. One thing they could do is up Crota's health. Right now a good swordrunner can get a kill in 3 sword carries at level 31 fairly easily (2 sword carries if perfect, but that's really hard), and a level 32 can do it easily in two carries. That's a ton of leeway when you have time for 6 carries in the encounter. Of course, making bosses bigger bullet sponges isn't really a great solution either in most cases. Looking at you, Valus Ta'aurroc.

[mannon]

Yeah I think in actual MMO terms the Destiny raids aren't raids at all, just six man dungeons, or in CsE's case 1 to 6 man dungeons. ;3 Hell I think even VoG has been done by as few a 4? Very much, not a raid. But then Destiny is not an MMO, so *shrug*... I think calling them raids was basically marketing and hype. Really they should have come up with another word for them.

Having said that I dunno about randomness... Randomness can be frustrating. Learning patterns is lagely what PvE boils down to. These are not PvP bots, they are simplistic AI's which are designed to have specific patterns for you to exploit. That's how all the Halo's did it too. It's just that Bungie is reusing, (or rather having us replay) SO much content over and over. And yes, the dissemination of information is way more than it was before. But this kind of information orgy is basically how people play MMO's. Everyone shares, copies, and regurgitates all the info they can. One person discovers something new and it goes viral, then you have half the community using it and the other half complaining about it. I wouldn't say that learning patterns means no skill... but it's a different skill. As for skill... is it really relevant? This is a progression based game similar to RPG's. The progression is the power fantasy rather than personal skill level. Skill is merely a tool that helps you progress faster than unskilled players, but everyone can eventually get there, regardless of skill level. That's actually a good thing. Skill caparisons as in how big is my epeen compared to yours are not really relevant and players that do equate being high in progression with being highly skilled are just idiots. Let them try to Crucible and see how it goes, or even Iron Banner. Most players in IB are high level so it's a fairly level playing field with only a few unfortunate lowbies. I trounced a lot of players higher level than me in IB. I really did not bother to look at players levels as I played. I was far more concerned about positioning, backup, class, and weapon.

Having said that, I would like to see more dynamic content. Not necessarily random, but things that change and adjust and aren't always the same, but can still be learned and adapted to. On example is the public events. I love them. They break up the monotony in the public spaces and bring a shift that sometimes affects the whole area. But they aren't random. I would like to see more variety. Not just more public events, but more variety in the event it-self. Maybe the tank doesn't always drop in exactly the same spot with exactly the same waves of enemies. Plus, how about some context. Why is it being dropped anyway? If guardians don't blow it up does it just sit there? How about Hive come streaming out and the tank drops in and goes on a rampage or something? What I'd really like to see more of the faction v faction stuff too. Though the Blades have added considerably more of that as is.

[iw5000]

"As for skill... is it really relevant?"

I was just replying back to that point, because you had mentioned about adding more depth to the Raids. So I gave my thoughts. Maybe add more skill components to the Raid. Again, ...another example. Maybe add a part that requires ALL six people to simultaneously hit six consecutive crit shots on their respective targets....to advance the Raid. THAT would require some level of gun skill. That would add more challenge, whereas right now, a lot of the Raiding is mostly knowing where to go stand. Why not a gun skill element?

The randomness? Randomness is the only thing that can curb back YouTube info dumping. Looking back, a good example was the VoG Raid. Making random people go back to venus/mars. That was probably a good thing to do. Made everyone be part of the plan and require everyone to have a bit more knowledge on what to do. Creates more teamwork.

As far as 'context'? LMAO. Sounds like you are asking for more plot, on a game that already has zero plot. Don't hold your breath on that one.

[iw5000]

Jan 2, 2015 12:07:24 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

Agreed, but only to an extent. VoG on normal seemed to offer much more of a challenge, at least when cheese wasn't used. Then again, most of us were level 26 or 27 when we first started running it, and didn't have top tier weapons either. A lot of us had only our starting subclass maxed out, if that, and were still figuring out and getting used to a lot of the game's mechanics. That all makes a big difference. Even on hard, VoG isn't really hard anymore because the patterns have been figured out and everyone is familiar with what to do and has the weapons to get their job done.

I think if Crota's End and the VoG had their release order reversed, we'd be saying almost the exact opposite of what we're saying now. I say almost, because the puzzle solving in VoG is definitely more in-depth than anything in CE. In VoG you had to figure out oracles, relic usage, how to take down the Templar's shield, find a route through the maze and jumping puzzle, and all the portal stuff with gatekeepers and Atheon. In CE the only real puzzles are how to form and cross the bridge, how to open up the Deathsinger room so you can kill her, and how to damage Crota. It's much more straightforward, but who knows, maybe Bungie has some new puzzles in store for us on hard mode.

As far as upping the skill requirement, I don't know about adding randomness to the encounters. There's enough RNG in the game as it is, although the random teleports for Atheon did add some challenge to that fight. One thing they could do is up Crota's health. Right now a good swordrunner can get a kill in 3 sword carries at level 31 fairly easily (2 sword carries if perfect, but that's really hard), and a level 32 can do it easily in two carries. That's a ton of leeway when you have time for 6 carries in the encounter. Of course, making bosses bigger bullet sponges isn't really a great solution either in most cases. Looking at you, Valus Ta'aurroc.

Can't argue with you there. I would agree on the VoG feeling much more 'Raid-like' than Crotas End.

[malgato]

It would be interesting to see them go further down the MMO path and have a 12-man raid. Or even a hard mode of the existing ones requiring 12 people.

They could learn alot by copying the successful games like Warcraft.

[wittyscorpion]

To echo lots of thoughts that have already been said:

1) This guy's execution is near perfection. It also demonstrates several techniques neatly;

2) Although not intended, have the raid soloable is not too bad. It is fun to do things both solo and in a group;

3) CsE does feel easier than VoG, but I think part of that is just perception. Too early to draw the conclusion, we need to see how hard mode works. It is also probably why the enemy is over leveled at 33 in hard;

4) In general: the main fun of Destiny comes from playing with groups. Most players who started in September and are still playing have regular friends/groups to play with, while most solo players have moved on.

Final thoughts: With its current set up, Destiny game play is basically the same content being played over and over again, not that different from PvP MP like Halo/CoD. It is the experience of playing with other people, using different loadouts, that add the freshness to the experience. I doubt that will change before a major overhaul like Destiny 2.

Destiny = core shooting loop + Investment system + RNG driven loot + playing w/friends + Casual PvP

Destiny =/= MMO, which has several things that Destiny does not offer: a) open world, b) social experience with strangers

[mannon]

I don't know about 12 man raids. 6 man seems difficult enough in Destiny. The thing is that it still is not an MMO. It doesn't really have the social framework for that level of organization. Hell it doesn't have it for 6 man raids. That's why there are so many LFG sites. I also think 12 people all in the same mission would somewhat tarnish the experience. It would be harder to coordinate, but also harder for your contribution to feel worthwhile. I think the only way that could work is if the 12 were split up in a way that was enforced. So that they were all cooperating, but not all fighting in the same space at the same time, at least for the majority of the mission. (Although coming together for one big fight could be pretty damn cool.) Even with six it seems like Bungie wants to split the team up, and I think that makes sense. It makes you rely on every member of the team, not just a few.


I'm not completely opposed to randomness, it just has to be used carefully. Just look at the RNG loot of VoG. That was borrowed completely from other MMO's and it turns out that it was rather frustrating to a lot of players. Even if you gamed the system as much as possible all you could do is grind and pray for luck. As for the randomly chosen teleports, it was probably the simplest solution and I guess it worked. I can't really comment on that as I haven't played VoG yet.


I'm not really asking for more story when I hope for more context. What I'm looking for is little things that make the world seem more alive and real. Things like the big all out war that happens in Skywatch from time to time. I would like to see factions push each other back. Imagine if the Hive in Skywatch sometimes pushed the Fallen out of the helipad and took over, then the Fallen would bring in a bigger force from the Array building and fight back, maybe taking over a bit more. Like they could actually lose bits and pieces of the map to each other and have a dynamic front line that changes due to battle and player interactions instead of just permanently static spawns and scripted routes. They have done some of that with the way Blades pop in now, which is interesting. I hope for more. I wouldn't mind seeing NPC's do something besides stand in one spot and talk to themselves, too.


As for gunskill... yes you certainly can do that. I just don't see the need to. Gunskills are a foundation in this game, they are a tool for achieving what you want. Being better at it just gets you there faster, but isn't required. But why should it be more highly emphasized than tactics? What you see as a problem with Youtube and everyone optimizing their strategies by copying other players, I just see as normal for this kind of game. Personally I don't watch vids for that. I like to read about lots of details then go figure things out for myself. I just don't hold gunskill in such high regard I guess. I don't care. To me making a specific segment require gunskill is exactly as relevant as having a segment test players math skill, or pattern memorization, or any other number of skills you could test. It would add challenge, and that's certainly a thing. But I don't know how much that encourages cooperation as opposed to inciting toxicity towards less (gun)skilled players. We already got LFG people insisting players have fully upgraded exotic weapons and such and getting really picky. I can just see someone getting bitched at because they missed a headshot. That's not to say it can't be done. It's possible. Just not the direction I would start with.

[iw5000]

I your see your point. I only brought that up, as that would be a way from downplaying YouTube copying. You can't do the YouTube copy of "hitting six consecutive crit shots on a moving target". One could watch YouTube all day on how to do it...but it wouldn't help. It's just something you need to be able to do. But you are right, it would lead to more exclusivity and nitpicking amongst groups.

I wasn't referring to randomness, in regards to loot. I was only bringing it up in regards to actual gameplay. The more stuff that makes people think on their feet, rather than from the YouTube script...the better/more fun the raid might be.