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Post by puckpuck on Jan 9, 2015 20:29:54 GMT -5
I started hearing about this after drift0r made a video about it. While im not video game developer, i know for a fact that i have never had this many lag issues. Ive had multiple people tell me that advanced warfare is 'laggy' on lan. So while i personally feel that skill is nore of an influence in match making this year, i dont know for sure that it is internet connections that are the cause of the lag. I feel that it could be posaible that some of this games issues are caused by a broken engine. I dont know if this is a completely new engine, or if they just heavily modded the old. But i feel that either way the game has a pretty bad stain on it due to lag issues. As far as skill based match making goes i dont fill 'skill' should ever matter in public matchmaking. This is not because im a weak player. I love to play league, cvc, and now ranked. I just dont think someone with a 50 ping should play agianst someone who lives 3000 miles away who has a ping of 3. I shouldnt need a buisness class connection to play cod. As far as engine based lag goes, is there any noticable or suspected causes for this in aw? Also is there any change in the games engine that is causing lag, that wasnt a problem in past cods?
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Post by puckpuck on Jan 10, 2015 12:13:07 GMT -5
I know what ping is mousey. I also know for a fact that i play people who live 3000 miles away who have either fiber or fios. I have a ping of 52 and shouldnt play agianst people who have a ping of 5. i know because i have asked some of the stompers who i play with and agianst and they let me know there setup.
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Post by puckpuck on Jan 10, 2015 14:07:53 GMT -5
Right i should have worded that better. I have a ping of 52 from jacksonville fl, to orlando. I have a 3 bar in a lot of lobbies, which means im taking over 100 ms to respond. I cant even play with my friends because every lobby we find is laggy so i have to play by myself to get stable lobbies.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 10, 2015 14:25:20 GMT -5
Well, what are your stats? If you have average stats sbmm should barely effect your ping
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Will
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Post by Will on Jan 10, 2015 15:08:21 GMT -5
Well, what are your stats? If you have average stats sbmm should barely effect your ping And if you have excellent or shitty stats it also should have zero effect on your ping.
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Post by puckpuck on Jan 10, 2015 15:31:54 GMT -5
Not true. Sbmm matches you up with people who have similar skill and skill is an undefinable term that no one really has a definition to as far as aw goes. The higher your skill the worse your connection will be. Simply because the cod skill gap is pyramid shaped. There is fewer and more far INBETWEEN of those.
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Post by puckpuck on Jan 10, 2015 15:36:42 GMT -5
I played at nephews house and lets just say hes not to great. I literally could have played with my eyes closed. Low skill = low skill lobby. Hence why pubstars and low level youtubers are reverse boosting.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Jan 10, 2015 15:39:23 GMT -5
I literally could have played with my eyes closed. Not what the word "literally" means. Unless you did use the word correctly. If so, upload that shit to Youtube.
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Post by puckpuck on Jan 10, 2015 15:47:27 GMT -5
This is true. The only real conclusion i think anyone can come to is that for some people the game has lag issues. Sbmm is most likely one of them to what degree, that is unknown as you said. I think the lag issues affect diffrent consoles differently. This is where the majority of arguments start. Due to the fact that some pc and next gen users are not having the same issues as past gen. Hopefully they will fix the lag issues.
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Will
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Post by Will on Jan 10, 2015 17:17:46 GMT -5
The higher your skill the worse your connection will be. My super high-skill brainwaves must be interfering with my wifi.
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Will
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Post by Will on Jan 10, 2015 19:56:50 GMT -5
Not necessarily true. If there are 10,000 matches available, and matchmaking narrows it down to 100 matches with what the game considers "best" connection (say, all pings stay below 50), and THEN trueskill is applied to pick one of those 100 matches, then it really would have no effect on the quality of the connection, as the game did not differentiate between those 100 matches connection-wise. "Removing SBMM", as all the whiners are begging for, would make zero change to connections, if matchmaking works the way I descibed (which is currently our best guess, based on what we've been told)
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 10, 2015 19:59:17 GMT -5
Um, any restrictions to what matches work multiplicative.
If it finds 100 matches of TDM with an open spot, and then it applies SBMM and narrows it down to 10, do ya really think thats not gonna negatively impact connection? Thats 90 games that could have had lower ping
I have no idea where you get the idea that its going to find 100 matches with 50 ping or less. Clearly, it cant.
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Will
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Post by Will on Jan 10, 2015 20:05:29 GMT -5
Um, any restrictions to what matches work multiplicative. If it finds 100 matches of TDM with an open spot, and then it applies SBMM and narrows it down to 10, do ya really think thats not gonna negatively impact connection? Thats 90 games that could have had lower ping I have no idea where you get the idea that its going to find 100 matches with 50 ping or less. Clearly, it cant. I was making numbers up as an example. My point was, if the matchmaking code does not narrow it down based on connection any further than it already does, then removing SBMM alone would do nothing. Trueskill is applied after connection-based-matchmaking, as best we know at the moment (based on vague tweets).
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 10, 2015 21:43:02 GMT -5
Um, any restrictions to what matches work multiplicative. If it finds 100 matches of TDM with an open spot, and then it applies SBMM and narrows it down to 10, do ya really think thats not gonna negatively impact connection? Thats 90 games that could have had lower ping I have no idea where you get the idea that its going to find 100 matches with 50 ping or less. Clearly, it cant. I was making numbers up as an example. My point was, if the matchmaking code does not narrow it down based on connection any further than it already does, then removing SBMM alone would do nothing. Trueskill is applied after connection-based-matchmaking, as best we know at the moment (based on vague tweets). And, like I said, its multiplicative. It doesnt matter where the SBMM narrowing down takes place. It still filters out otherwise good lobbies. If 10,000 lobbies are tested, and 100 fit connection parameters, and then you remove 75% of those lobbies because the skill gap is too large.. you end up with the same thing as if you took 10,000 lobbies, applied the skill filter, and then took the better connections.
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Jan 11, 2015 6:37:52 GMT -5
This thread is gold.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Jan 11, 2015 10:28:18 GMT -5
This thread is now Platinum.
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Will
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Post by Will on Jan 11, 2015 15:27:03 GMT -5
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Post by kylet357 on Jan 11, 2015 15:32:47 GMT -5
Lord Condrey has spoken
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Post by puckpuck on Jan 11, 2015 16:53:02 GMT -5
Yes he has. There must be another reason.
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Will
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Post by Will on Jan 11, 2015 17:28:23 GMT -5
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 11, 2015 17:31:27 GMT -5
This was never contested. I mean, you think in that situation above where you have a couple lobbies with pings from 10-150, and the SBMM says the one with 150 ping has closer skills, which does it pick? All he said is that it doesnt pick that one.
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Will
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Post by Will on Jan 11, 2015 17:39:59 GMT -5
You must be having a hard time reading his tweet. Connection ALWAYS takes priority over skill.
It will NEVER give you a worse connection to get a closer skill matchup.
It will only take skill into consideration after it has narrowed it down to multiple lobbies with the same connection quality.
If lobby A has a better connection than lobby B, but lobby B has a better skill matchup, it will choose lobby A, 100% of the time. How is that hard to read or understand? Lobby B will only be selected if the connection is the same quality as lobby A. And since Call of Duty has tens of thousands of matches running simultaneously, the odds of you getting multiple lobbies with the same "best" quality connection is very high, so skill does come into play most of the time (maybe all of the time?). But it will never put you in a worse connection, according to Condrey's tweet.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 11, 2015 17:51:47 GMT -5
You're definitely the one misreading it. That's completely impossible. The most basic logic imaginable tells you that SBMM, or ANY filter, would damage match quality. English speaking lobbies only? Plays with mics only? Etc.
Only if the matchmaking is retarded and groups lobbies from 0-150 ping as if those were all the same does your situation work. I sure hope it isnt that bad.
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Will
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Post by Will on Jan 11, 2015 17:54:30 GMT -5
"ALWAYS" is an objective word.
Don't get mad at me. If you want to call Condrey a liar, there are plenty of discussions over on reddit about it.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Jan 11, 2015 19:47:21 GMT -5
So, Will, here's what they're saying.
The game will bin games as equivalent for connection quality. Let's say the game bins according to one, two, three, and four bars.
Obviously, the game wants you to have a four bar connection. Then out of the four bar connections, it theoretically bins out the games that are outside your skill range.
What asasa and mousey are saying is that there is variability in the four bar bin. A four bar is anywhere from 0 to 99 ping and thus adding another filter could theoretically worsen your connection. You would prefer a 5 ping connection over a 99 ping connection, but SBMM might say you're too good to play with the scrubs next door (hahahahahaha. Yeah. Right).
I used bins here equivalent to bars, but the bins could be any size. The larger the bins are (ex. larger ping range), then the more capacity that SBMM has to screw things up, but also vice versa. If the bins are small, then SBMM's influence is likewise smaller.
That said, it is unlikely SBMM is significantly reducing connection quality.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Jan 11, 2015 19:55:06 GMT -5
"ALWAYS" is an objective word. Don't get mad at me. If you want to call Condrey a liar, there are plenty of discussions over on reddit about it. Let's say that Condrey is right and that Connection ALWAYS takes priority to skill. Using support.activision.com/articles/en_US/FAQ/How-does-matchmaking-work-in-Public-Match/ we can see how it can still affect connection. Because it does, because you have to think in terms of coding. 1. They state there are four tiers of geographical regions. So what the game does it is says "What is PLAYER's region?" Then it searches for games "Are there enough games to search for PLAYER to play?" If yes, then it goes to the next step, if not it goes to the next tier and so on. 2. They state there is a broad skill range, let's say their's 3 skill ranges with 4 skill tiers, bad, below average, above average, good. So the ranges would be BAD to BELOW AVERAGE, BELOW AVERAGE to ABOVE AVERAGE, and ABOVE AVERAGE to GOOD. So the game would say something like "Is PLAYER's skill within range 1?" if yes it would go to step 3, if not it would repeat to the next tier until a tier was established. 3. They state that the above results in a list of the 50 best available games and then runs a test of connection quality. Now connection quality is a catchall of many different factors, PING, BANDWIDTH and NAT from their description. Most likely they weigh these, so if a PING is 11ms to the host, but the host has a STRICT NAT type, and you have an OPEN NAT type, the game is probably going to go to the next game that has a 33ms PING to the host, but he has an OPEN NAT. So the game would say something like "Test the 50 games by connection quality" Then it'll usually print out a list of any number of compatible games, usually like 10 or so. Then the game just starts joining in order, if it's full it goes to the next, if none can be joined it would go to the next tier of connections. Now it's pretty obvious that Connection ALWAYS takes priority in this system, because Skill is a broad tier of which the connection step finds better games. HOWEVER it DOES affect the connection because there could be a game, with an open slot, that has OPEN NAT, great bandwidth and 2ms PING, but their in a different tier of SKILL and as such are unobtainable. Seriously, it's impossible for any filter to not effect connection, even geographical. I mean if there's a host within 40 miles of me that goes through all the other filters and gets to the end, only for it to find out, "oh he's running Sattilite and has 300ms PING" that's still one less GOOD possible game for the game to look for.
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Post by Will on Jan 11, 2015 20:28:35 GMT -5
So, Will, here's what they're saying. The game will bin games as equivalent for connection quality. Let's say the game bins according to one, two, three, and four bars. Obviously, the game wants you to have a four bar connection. Then out of the four bar connections, it theoretically bins out the games that are outside your skill range. What asasa and mousey are saying is that there is variability in the four bar bin. A four bar is anywhere from 0 to 99 ping and thus adding another filter could theoretically worsen your connection. You would prefer a 5 ping connection over a 99 ping connection, but SBMM might say you're too good to play with the scrubs next door (hahahahahaha. Yeah. Right). I used bins here equivalent to bars, but the bins could be any size. The larger the bins are (ex. larger ping range), then the more capacity that SBMM has to screw things up, but also vice versa. If the bins are small, then SBMM's influence is likewise smaller. That said, it is unlikely SBMM is significantly reducing connection quality. My point is that if the game doesn't already have a way to differentiate the quality of the connections beyond simply sorting it into those four "bins", then the removal of SBMM alone would not change anything. They would have to add in a new matchmaking code to find and pick exactly which game is the best within that bin. I'm just presenting a scenario where SBMM would have no effect on connections. We don't know anything beyond these tweets.
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Jan 11, 2015 20:28:36 GMT -5
"ALWAYS" is an objective word. Don't get mad at me. If you want to call Condrey a liar, there are plenty of discussions over on reddit about it. Let's say that Condrey is right and that Connection ALWAYS takes priority to skill. Using support.activision.com/articles/en_US/FAQ/How-does-matchmaking-work-in-Public-Match/ we can see how it can still affect connection. Because it does, because you have to think in terms of coding. 1. They state there are four tiers of geographical regions. So what the game does it is says "What is PLAYER's region?" Then it searches for games "Are there enough games to search for PLAYER to play?" If yes, then it goes to the next step, if not it goes to the next tier and so on. 2. They state there is a broad skill range, let's say their's 3 skill ranges with 4 skill tiers, bad, below average, above average, good. So the ranges would be BAD to BELOW AVERAGE, BELOW AVERAGE to ABOVE AVERAGE, and ABOVE AVERAGE to GOOD. So the game would say something like "Is PLAYER's skill within range 1?" if yes it would go to step 3, if not it would repeat to the next tier until a tier was established. 3. They state that the above results in a list of the 50 best available games and then runs a test of connection quality. Now connection quality is a catchall of many different factors, PING, BANDWIDTH and NAT from their description. Most likely they weigh these, so if a PING is 11ms to the host, but the host has a STRICT NAT type, and you have an OPEN NAT type, the game is probably going to go to the next game that has a 33ms PING to the host, but he has an OPEN NAT. So the game would say something like "Test the 50 games by connection quality" Then it'll usually print out a list of any number of compatible games, usually like 10 or so. Then the game just starts joining in order, if it's full it goes to the next, if none can be joined it would go to the next tier of connections. Now it's pretty obvious that Connection ALWAYS takes priority in this system, because Skill is a broad tier of which the connection step finds better games. HOWEVER it DOES affect the connection because there could be a game, with an open slot, that has OPEN NAT, great bandwidth and 2ms PING, but their in a different tier of SKILL and as such are unobtainable. Seriously, it's impossible for any filter to not effect connection, even geographical. I mean if there's a host within 40 miles of me that goes through all the other filters and gets to the end, only for it to find out, "oh he's running Sattilite and has 300ms PING" that's still one less GOOD possible game for the game to look for. This is a pretty good explanation. I've mentioned Halo's ranked matchmaking in some of the other threads covering this subject, but I think it is worth mentioning again here. Halo 2/3 had ranked play systems that were designed to match you with people as close to your skill level as possible. They even showed you this process in game. If you were a rank 30, the game would start out by "searching for players rank 29-31." If it couldn't find anyone, it would expand the search by one rank in each direction until it found enough people to fill the lobby. More likely than not CoD uses a similar MMR system where each player is attributed a number and the game attempts to match people with similar numbers. There's probably a high end and a low end cut-off where the game will attempt to not place you into lobbies with people who are too much worse, or too much better than you. I highly doubt that the game uses brackets or tiers to determine skill matching. The system is probably more fluid. Someone with a rank 40 might not be allowed into a lobby where the average skill is below rank 10 or something like that. There's probably an arbitrary line that sets the maximum skill discrepancy allowed for a match. If the game used brackets then anyone at the upper level of their bracket would never play anyone who isn't less skilled than they are, and anyone at the lower level of their bracket would be stuck playing people who are always better than them.
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Post by xFEARtheSHIELDx on Jan 12, 2015 2:51:54 GMT -5
It may also be worth mentioning that the player base is now split between 5 platforms, if you add on that someone trying to play lesser populated modes like Classic KC, Momentum, or whatevs, at 4 am PST, and has a high skill rank... the end result may be less than desirable.
There may be like 5 matches where it's even possible to join.
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Post by puckpuck on Jan 12, 2015 10:57:27 GMT -5
If sbmm wasnt truly affecting the game, reverse boosters would not be getting witch hunted right now.
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