wings
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Post by wings on Feb 27, 2015 14:05:55 GMT -5
It does one shot kill a lot of people in Crucible. I have tried it a bunch too, while doing some 'get 10 caps' bounties. Crucible is kind of dumb now. Just a constant sound of "POP...POP....POP....POP' going off, as people run shotties all over the place, while also doing slide moves. Dumb game. I was surprised shotguns weren't as popular before going by the range of a lot of gunfights and looking at objective placements. Backwards jumping near a shotgunner might catch them off-guard but overall the maps are a bit cramped for me.
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Post by ingulit on Feb 27, 2015 14:14:38 GMT -5
To make a quick aside: Single Point Sling is a very viable alternative to Hammer Forged, as while you lose range you can keep your primary out longer and switch for the last shot and/or panic switch if someone gets the drop on you. The movement speed buff is nice too, especially on a shotgun. Felwinter's Lie is a nice candidate for this since in these situations you probably will only get one shot off and its high impact makes that shot count. I rolled Kneepads/Single Point Sling/Shot Package and have been using it this way and love it.
For kicks and giggles I will likely try to roll (Kneepads/etc)/Single Point Sling/Full Auto on my second Felwinter's Lie next Iron Banner since the ROF buff is certainly notable, though I'm worried not having any range enhancement might not be a great idea. It's worth trying, anyway.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 27, 2015 14:17:37 GMT -5
Odd people are going shotgun nuts in Crucible considering they were actually nerfed in Crucible and only buffed in PvE. *shrugs*
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Post by ingulit on Feb 27, 2015 14:20:05 GMT -5
Odd people are going shotgun nuts in Crucible considering they were actually nerfed in Crucible and only buffed in PvE. *shrugs* People are trying out their new reforged toy. I've actually noticed fewer shotguns, and frequently when they are used I've survived most shots I've taken since the patch. (of course, that's likely just because people aren't used to the new ranges yet)
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 27, 2015 14:22:49 GMT -5
ahh Then it's more IB than the patch. Makes sense. I haven't used mine yet. I got two so I can play with reforging, but didn't have the motes yet and I'm still leveling up my Invective so I've just stuck with that for now. Too many weapons to upgrade... heh
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 27, 2015 14:46:41 GMT -5
I think that we are touching on one of the fundamental problems (or "features", choice of words depending on how much you like/dislike the current state) of Destiny PvP:
The conversation is often around which weapon/perk has the most power. One way to do well in this game is to find such combos and milk from them until Bungie does something about it, then move on to the next thing.
I can see that some players enjoy this while others hate it. I also now see why I personally prefer Halo despite some similarities between the two games: (with the exception of Halo 4) in Halo everybody starts with the same access to weapons and "abilities", a setup can be appealing to people who prefer to "fight" on equal footing, but can be viewed as boring to people who like random excitement.
30 FPS, no dedicated servers, as well as no visible rankings of any kind, further advanced the feeling of "randomness" of Destiny PvP experience. I hypothesize that one main reason why most people in my circle (like many bros here and friends on my friends list) don't enjoy PvP is probably largely due the lack of consistency, the fact that you may do well in one game while poorly in the next game.
Take me for example: I don't mind doing poorly when starting a new game, as long as I can see myself improving over time; Alternatively, I can be satisfied by playing with people at my level which result in close and exciting fight. In Destiny, I can't see either happening right now, and doubtful if that could ever happen.
Just some random thoughts on the ongoing discussion Destiny Crucible: an interesting phenomenon that we have not seen in the past games.
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 27, 2015 15:02:07 GMT -5
Heb
I have two of them fully leveled now.
Number One has ......'Kneepads', Single Point Sling & "Full Auto"... this is my run and gun PvP gun, I can move faster, slide more (especially with the Hunter) and pretty much be a sliding doucherocket. I want to say this is by design, but it's more like I spent 50+ motes and was down to 3 left...when this full auto version appeared. I had to take it.
Number two has .....Returned to Sender, Hammer Forged, & Range Finger.....this is my 2nd purchase. I just took what they gave me. Seemed decent.
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 27, 2015 15:12:36 GMT -5
I think that we are touching on one of the fundamental problems (or "features", choice of words depending on how much you like/dislike the current state) of Destiny PvP: The conversation is often around which weapon/perk has the most power. One way to do well in this game is to find such combos and milk from them until Bungie does something about it, then move on to the next thing. I can see that some players enjoy this while others hate it. I also now see why I personally prefer Halo despite some similarities between the two games: (with the exception of Halo 4) in Halo everybody starts with the same access to weapons and "abilities", a setup can be appealing to people who prefer to "fight" on equal footing, but can be viewed as boring to people who like random excitement. 30 FPS, no dedicated servers, as well as no visible rankings of any kind, further advanced the feeling of "randomness" of Destiny PvP experience. I hypothesize that one main reason why most people in my circle (like many bros here and friends on my friends list) don't enjoy PvP is probably largely due the lack of consistency, the fact that you may do well in one game while poorly in the next game. Take me for example: I don't mind doing poorly when starting a new game, as long as I can see myself improving over time; Alternatively, I can be satisfied by playing with people at my level which result in close and exciting fight. In Destiny, I can't see either happening right now, and doubtful if that could ever happen. Just some random thoughts on the ongoing discussion Destiny Crucible: an interesting phenomenon that we have not seen in the past games. There's nothing satisfying about a PvP Multiplayer that leaves doubt in your mind, that the person who killed you, did so because he has a weapon you had no access too. That there is THE biggest, most fundamental flaw of a FPSer. PvP should be able a level playing field, and which players best use their pieces of equipment when engaging in fair play. Destiny is flawed like that...in addition to all it's over issues like the MarioKart bullshit, emphasis on heavy ammo bs, etc... The game also has a deceivingly high amount of lag, that often escapes notice due to the long TTK's.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 27, 2015 15:14:29 GMT -5
I have about the same consistency with it as I had with CoD as far as my own playing. It does seem that your opponents are more versatile. Lobbies break up and reform all the time. Your opponents are also diverse not only in skill, but equipment, the two not being the same thing at all. I think this makes for a very large gap between the top tier players who have both the skill and the equipment, but if you only have one or the other it's sort of mixed. And if you have neither you're probably in a bad way.
Maps feel a little bit small and unbalanced, at least for Control. Glad they are starting to address specials and heavies over usage. Maybe they'll address supers as well at some point. And they're trying some new playlist options. It has potential, but it could take a while.
We should probably keep in mind that this is a first in a franchise even if it is an experienced studio. They clearly did not want to simply carbon copy Halo so it's going to take some work. CoD certainly has gone through a lot of iterations and had gone through many of them even before it got up to CoD4. As is I have some fun in Crucible... at least for Iron Banner, and I'm curious to see where it goes from here. Would I play it if that was the entire game and no PvE... no. (I'd just stick with TitanFall.) But it can be fun.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 27, 2015 15:23:18 GMT -5
Obviously, the satisfaction comes from killing somebody with weapon superiority, not killed due to weapon inferiority That said, it may still not be your cup of tea (or mine), but some players enjoy the chaos. Even in Halo, once in a while players enjoy crazy playlists like "Action Sack", "Fiesta Ball", etc. Personally, I think that the randomness is fine for the crowd who enjoy them, as long as there are some other playlists for players who want to play "seriously" once in a while. "Inferno" control is intriguing, but with the entire PvP premise built to cater casual play, I don't have high expectations.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Feb 27, 2015 15:31:59 GMT -5
Personally, I've found the PvP a lot more fun when I'm not in the Control gametype. I've had better experiences overall in Rumble and Clash. Then again I played Rumble Pit and Team Slayer almost exclusively in Halo way back when, and TDM almost exclusively in CoD more recently, so that may just be my personal gametype preferences influencing my thinking there.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 27, 2015 15:35:20 GMT -5
CoD does the same thing with access to weapons and perks gated. Bungie just has more of a grind, and RNG thrown in for good measure. But that is what it is. Destiny only has PvP because we would have begged for it if the game released without it. But the loot system is at the core of the game. It might be nice to have some sort of playlist with a standard weapon set instead or something, though.
Having said that CoD isn't immune. Sure to people that prestige 10 times it may seem like nothing, but to a lot of players having to level up to unlock things, and worse still having to complete challenges to unlock certain attachments and pro perks can be a significant barrier. Honestly I never unlocked a lot of things I had wanted to use even in MW2 and I played it more than any other CoD. But some things were harder than others, and you can't really unlock everything before you hit the level cap. There is no level playing field there. And hell in AW now you have loot too. The only thing CoD does to help with this is throw a lot of the best gear at the lower levels so it unlocks early, but having that and more options is still always better in theory.
You can argue for Halo, though. I'll give you that one. Even in Reach all the unlocks were cosmetic. I'd like to see a playlist with either a standardized item set or even standardized loadouts. But I'd still prefer to play with my own gear most of the time and just focus on improving my arsenal. Yes having stuff gated and locked away from you isn't particularly fair, but it is fun earning it and getting new stuff.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 27, 2015 15:44:21 GMT -5
I played like a single match of Destiny's FFA. (Is it clash or is that another one?) I honestly hate FFA, though. I haven't liked FFA since... uhhh maybe Jedi Knight was the last game I enjoyed in FFA. My experience in Destiny was just like in CoD and nearly everything else. More than half the fights you get in with someone else result in some random third person killing you... Or you just get ganked entirely because there is nowhere remotely safe and you can't cover 360 degrees of threats. I hate it. There's no structure.
I have played a little of the more TDM style mode for Destiny and I'm not totally averse to it, but I'm not sure about it. For some reason all of those games were on bigger maps so a lot of the match was just walking around looking for people in a big half empty map then somebody ganks somebody. Sniping was more a thing, which was kinda fun. I think I prefer some form of objective for Destiny, though. Oddly I always preferred strait TDM in CoD... (except for AW... with stupid spawns). *shrug* We'll see. Maybe I just haven't played enough of the other modes.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 27, 2015 15:47:41 GMT -5
Personally, I've found the PvP a lot more fun when I'm not in the Control gametype. I've had better experiences overall in Rumble and Clash. Then again I played Rumble Pit and Team Slayer almost exclusively in Halo way back when, and TDM almost exclusively in CoD more recently, so that may just be my personal gametype preferences influencing my thinking there. That's a bit odd from my point of view because Control is more like TDM with biased scoring towards team with more flag contro, than traditional capture based game modes. You can play it like TDM and still making significant contributions to your team without doing any captures, but with easier prediction on where the enemies are.
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 27, 2015 15:49:09 GMT -5
CoD does the same thing with access to weapons and perks gated. Bungie just has more of a grind, and RNG thrown in for good measure. Come on, not even close. Saying they sort of do the same thing, is like saying Sasha Grey and Rosie O'Donnell are both the same, because they have boobs (and dark hair) Seriously. Come on.
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wings
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Post by wings on Feb 27, 2015 15:57:26 GMT -5
Gun Game, Demolition and Bombing Run, bitches.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 27, 2015 16:17:42 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that. How many hours does it take to get some decent gear for Crucible vs how many hours does it take to unlock most of the stuff for CoD? It takes more hours for Destiny... sure. But we're still just talking a matter of scale, not completely different things. CoD weapons, attachments, perks, and pro persks still DO require time to unlock, period. Maybe you think that the time investment to unlock things in CoD is trivial because you play some 50 hours a week or whatever, but it was never trivial for me. Trust me, I felt it when I had to grind up those levels to unlock stuff and I'm playing against level 50's on their 5th prestige.
On top of that Vanilla Crucible largely equalizes things unlike Iron Banner. There are still a few standout weapons, certainly, but a whole lot of pretty easy weapons to acquire are still really good. Hell right now the gun you get for beating the story missions is once again pretty damn good in Crucible and it's not even a legendary. You want to be able to compete in Crucible... it's really not that huge an investment. You don't even have to be level 20 yet.
You want to compete in Iron Banner... well that's different. But Iron Banner is unique to Destiny. It's a timed event, and a unique playlist. It's nothing like Clan War. IB is not Destiny's primary PvP mode, it's just a big event that pushes loot grinding. In other words it's PvE style gating and advancement, but with PvP gameplay.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Feb 27, 2015 16:24:23 GMT -5
CoD does the same thing with access to weapons and perks gated. Bungie just has more of a grind, and RNG thrown in for good measure. Come on, not even close. Saying they sort of do the same thing, is like saying Sasha Grey and Rosie O'Donnell are both the same, because they have boobs (and dark hair) Seriously. Come on. Except this year CoD is Rosie.
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 28, 2015 16:37:05 GMT -5
Uh, no.
CoD's multiplayer is still heads and tails WAAAAY above Destiny's Crucible. Not even close. End of discussion there.
As far as CoD's multiplayer vs Destiny's PvE? Apples and oranges. But that said, even CoD's multiplayer on it's worst day, (like AW), still has a thrilling real person vs real person naibiting excitement that Destiny's PvE environment will never match. Beat real people always tops beating Ai. Sorry, but that's true. Destiny is tons of fun, not knocking it there....i love the game, but it's PvE just doesn't have that blood raising pressure. CoD still has that. Which is why i keep playing it, even though AW is by far the worst in the series. Take last night's clan war. We got matched up against a few guy's from Optic, who were playing on Crimsix's live stream. We beat them at Hardpoint. That type of excitement will never happen in Destiny.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Feb 28, 2015 17:33:30 GMT -5
As long as you enjoy it, cool. But ugly fat broad is still ugly fat broad.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 28, 2015 18:43:11 GMT -5
CoD probably does have better overall multiplayer than Destiny. *shrug* I didn't say Destiny was better. But CoD does still gate away abilities that give players more options and power. The thing you said was Destiny's great sin. I'm merely pointing out that CoD does it too, it's just a matter of degree.
As for real people always topping AI... I'm going to disagree. Oh for sure if you want a heart pumping, adrenalin racing, tense, and exciting experience then that's probably true. But not everyone enjoys all the same things to the same degree so that is actually a matter of opinion. Personally while I enjoy some PvP I get a LOOOOOTTTTT more enjoyment out of single player and PvE games. I have to be in the right mood and mindset to even stomach PvP, because most of the time, frankly... I don't want to deal with other people. People are annoying and frustrating enough when they aren't actively trying to kill me. Sometimes I don't want to deal with that shit even if it is just a game. I play far more single player and PvE games. In fact in most games that have PvE and PvP I never play PvP at all. So that statement is not universal, and that's true.
Personally I also enjoy Destiny PvP a lot more than AW. I hoped I would like AW a lot more, but the maps and spawns aren't balanced for the new movement and I just don't care that much for it so far. Maybe when I give it a better run later, but right now I don't have time for it and Destiny PvP is more fun to me when I am feeling like doing PvP so why bother with AW? If I really want to play something besides Destiny right now it'll be GTAV. But that's me.
I can totally understand that Destiny PvP has some problems, and that some people just plain don't like it. Even if you fixed all the problems some people still wouldn't like it. Not every game is for everybody. *shrug*
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 1, 2015 9:05:54 GMT -5
CoD probably does have better overall multiplayer than Destiny. *shrug* I didn't say Destiny was better. But CoD does still gate away abilities that give players more options and power. The thing you said was Destiny's great sin. I'm merely pointing out that CoD does it too, it's just a matter of degree. Right. I was just joking (sort of) with my pics. My of CoD's gates can be removed in a few hours of play. With Destiny, it might be a couple HUNDRED hours. That was the point of my pics. Right. It is a matter of opinion. Some people like vanilla ice cream, some like chocolate. I was just expressing my opinion, that at the end of the day, beating another real life person is immensely more satisfying. That is my opinion. And on a whole, i think that is opinion of most people. That principle is the underlying basis for all sports we watch today. 150 million people tuned in to watch the Super Bowl. Men competing against the men, in competition. They didn't tune in to watch a bunch of guys memorize cheese patterns of a computer AI program. Ok. Again, i respect your opinion. You like, what you like. And i'll be the first to tell you, that AW has a lot more problems than any CoD before it. Yep. But imho, so does Destiny's PvP. Seriously, how can you bust AW's maps, when Destiny is running a PvP that literally gives you the same map 4 to 5 times in a row sometimes? And you want to talk balance? Good fvcking god...seriously? How have you missed Destiny's ATROCIOUS map balance issues on maps like Blind Watch and Shores of Time. SledgeHammer looks like map making geniuses compared to Bungie. And the IB? Destiny's most popular PvP mode? Balanced? Let's nerf half the players with 10 to 90% reductions in ability, so that other half can get kills, and feel like they are good at PvP playing? Lol. Nothing sums up our "Everyone Gets a Trophy" culture than Bungie's Iron Banner. Embarrassing. Anyways. btw...GTAV is about a perfect of a game as ever was made. On that, i agree.
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Post by GodMars on Mar 1, 2015 9:18:45 GMT -5
It does one shot kill a lot of people in Crucible. I have tried it a bunch too, while doing some 'get 10 caps' bounties. Crucible is kind of dumb now. Just a constant sound of "POP...POP....POP....POP' going off, as people run shotties all over the place, while also doing slide moves. Dumb game. So this wasn't just my experience, then. I recently did the Thorn and Bad Juju bounties for the second time (did them originally last Sept/Oct), and I was shocked how bad the PvP had gotten. It wasn't even like this when I came back a month ago. Is this all because of Felwinter's Lie?
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wings
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Post by wings on Mar 1, 2015 11:12:44 GMT -5
It does one shot kill a lot of people in Crucible. I have tried it a bunch too, while doing some 'get 10 caps' bounties. Crucible is kind of dumb now. Just a constant sound of "POP...POP....POP....POP' going off, as people run shotties all over the place, while also doing slide moves. Dumb game. So this wasn't just my experience, then. I recently did the Thorn and Bad Juju bounties for the second time (did them originally last Sept/Oct), and I was shocked how bad the PvP had gotten. It wasn't even like this when I came back a month ago. Is this all because of Felwinter's Lie? The 15% reduction of base damage to high impact auto rifles might have helped, although a lot of engagements are in shotgun territory anyway.
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Post by GodMars on Mar 1, 2015 11:17:42 GMT -5
It was all Red Deaths and shotguns (if they didn't have one they used the other). It would have been comical had I not been working on an exotic bounty.
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wings
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Post by wings on Mar 1, 2015 11:25:42 GMT -5
Red death is because pulse rifles got buffed and I only got Three Little Words from an engram very recently. There's not much point to secondaries other than shotguns because sniper rifles only OHK to the head and fusion rifles you can hear from a fair distance and you can strafe at a distance dodging the fusion rifles' projectiles whilst spamming auto rifle bullets. I am thinking of using shotguns near permanently as a secondary and I usually default to sniper rifles mainly because of PvE. If I had a sniper rifle with a red dot sight or an ACOG I would spam it.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Mar 2, 2015 11:18:30 GMT -5
Two possible reasons you're seeing more shotguns now than before, despite them being nerfed in PvP:
1. People just got their Felwinter's Lies leveled up, and are itching to use them. Usage confirms that Felwinter's Lie dominates other shotguns as far as 1SK capability goes, so they continue using it. 2. Fusion rifles may have been nerfed harder than shotguns, so fusion rifle users have switched to shotguns. I don't use FRs, so I don't know how accurate that is, but it did seem that I survived more FR bursts at medium-ish range than I did before. That could be related to lag or other factors, though.
Red Death is now a two burst kill if you hit headshots, and a three burst kill otherwise. I don't think it's quite on the same level as The Last Word or Thorn, but it's arguably the #3 PvP primary after those two.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Mar 2, 2015 11:22:30 GMT -5
SIDE NOTE:
I've always felt that guns with bayonets should have a built in perk to make them more useful, other than esthetics.
Something like making them a OHK in PVP and 33% stacking buff to melee speed.
Just an idea.....
Carry on
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wings
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Post by wings on Mar 2, 2015 11:56:21 GMT -5
SIDE NOTE: I've always felt that guns with bayonets should have a built in perk to make them more useful, other than esthetics. Something like making them a OHK in PVP and 33% stacking buff to melee speed. Just an idea..... Carry on You mean like in Borderlands 2?
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Mar 2, 2015 12:14:27 GMT -5
SIDE NOTE: I've always felt that guns with bayonets should have a built in perk to make them more useful, other than esthetics. Something like making them a OHK in PVP and 33% stacking buff to melee speed. Just an idea..... Carry on You mean like in Borderlands 2? *shrug* Never played it.
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