wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 8, 2015 15:12:34 GMT -5
In the past, I have never given serious thought in this topic. Every time the level cap is raised, I only focused on getting my characters to the cap.
With the new ascension system in place, and the need to have better PvP setup (because I now have more interests in playing that), I would like to achieve better compositions over time. It would be great to have some general considerations to guide this effort, so I am looking for tips from bros who are experienced in this aspect.
First of all, what's the formula to get the threshold value to reach 100%, by light level?
let's also talk about factors that can influence the considerations. What should be taken into consideration? The following?
1) PvE or PvP; 2) Class & Subclass; 3) Exotic piece used and talents to take advantage of;
Regarding general considerations:
Would it be fair to say that Intellect & Discipline are in general more important than Strengths, especially in PvP? If yes, for what class/subclass combos should we consider strengths? Sunsinger (I have been trying to maximize Dis & Str and ignore Intellect when playing PvP)? What else (if the exotic piece is high on strengths, then maybe make the loadout strength focused)?
Any other considerations / tips you feel important to share.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 8, 2015 23:54:15 GMT -5
I agree with you, in that strength is pretty important in PvP. Especially when you are shot gunning.
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tooros
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Post by tooros on Jul 9, 2015 4:52:13 GMT -5
When playing as a team. 1) PvE 2) Warlock Sunsinger 3) Apotheosis Veil and full set of Kell 0% Int 96% STR 100% Dis You only resurrect in times of extreme need anyway. Max grenades (two of them) and Scorch are much more useful. Ignore the weapons - 'was playing Titan last night.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 9, 2015 6:53:04 GMT -5
Personally I shoot for max INT and DIS almost regardless of subclass and regardless of PvE/PvP. You can't really go wrong with more supers or more grenades, but there are a few exceptions. Generally, melees don't do enough damage in endgame PvE content and require you to be so close that it's usually not worth it. Just kill things from farther away and move on. If enemies do get close, that's what your shotgun is for. The exceptions for PvE are Bladedancers and Sunsingers. Bladedancers can go invisible with Escape Artist, so having that ready to go often can help you get out of tight situations. Combine that with the fact Arc Blade isn't generally a great PvE super for damage output, safey, or orb production, and I think it makes sense to sacrifice some INT for STR instead. tooros nailed Sunsinger already. Namely, Sunsingers get flame shield just from making contact with the melee which is very useful in its own right, and most people run Fireborn for endgame challenges, so having high INT isn't that useful when you're usually holding your super in case of emergency. Defenders might have an argument for more STR, but only getting an overshield on kill (instead of on hit like Sunsingers) hurts a lot. I'll take more bubbles and more magnetic grenades over more chances at a possible overshield any day. In PvP, most of the same ideas apply. Having your charged melee ability up (vs just a normal melee) is only an extra 10 damage. Usually you've already damaged anyone you're trying to melee, so the melee is generally going to get you the kill either way. When you're talking about sacrificing a super or two per game for faster melee recharge, it's really not worth it in my mind, and I would never give up more grenades for more melees, ever. The point about giving up supers is especially true if you're running with a coordinated team. If your team is on the same page and everyone is running high INT, you can chain supers all game and steamroll your opposition. Sunsinger is arguably the only class where it makes sense to invest in STR over INT, and then only if you're shotgun rushing and running Fireborn. I don't think Sunsinger is very good for shotgun rushing (use a class with blink instead), and I don't run Fireborn for reasons already discussed ad nauseam in that other thread.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 9, 2015 7:18:10 GMT -5
1. PvE - Vault of Glass 2. Warlock Sunsinger 3. Any gear that gets the most out of Int and Dis
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 9, 2015 10:22:45 GMT -5
I would like to confirm the following numbers:
1) value to reach 100% (will be a waste to have more than that): at level 30 it is 270, what's the value at level 34? is there a formula to calculate this value by level?
2) Intellect 100% vs. 0%: super cooldown reduced from 5:30 minutes to 3:55 minutes (a gain of 95 seconds), and double super energy gain from kills;
3) Discipline 100% vs. 0%: grenade cooldown reduced from 60 seconds to 20 seconds. Does this apply to the second grenade (from either exotic talent or Sunsingr Gift of th Sun perk) affected?
5) Strength 100% vs 0%: melee cooldown reduced from 60 seconds to 20 seconds. Does this apply to the second melee from Claws?
While we are talking about this, we might as well discuss Agility / Recovery / Armor as well. What are your considerations when planning for PvE vs. PvP? Specifically for PvP: max out Agility & Armor while keep them as balanced as possible?
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 9, 2015 10:45:51 GMT -5
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 9, 2015 11:45:13 GMT -5
Thanks a lot for the links to the detailed stats and sharing your general guidelines. These are very helpful and now I have a much clearer picture of what to look for when putting armors together. What are you thoughts on Agility / Armor / Recovery? I am interested in both PvE and PvP considerations, but care more about PvP than PvE.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 9, 2015 12:10:46 GMT -5
I think you can kind of do whatever you want in PvE. Armor is good in general, but even at max armor you're going to go down quickly against a slew of enemies. Agility is nice to get away from tricky spots and make some of the tougher jumps, but that's fairly situational and it doesn't make that big of a difference most of the time. Recovery is pretty useful for those times you're hurt and have to duck into cover to get your health back, where high recovery gets you healed and back in the action a little faster. So I guess I'd spec for recovery first and then armor if I don't need to make any crazy jumps, or just run something that's pretty balanced between the three, and switch to high agility where that's necessary (Crota cheeses, for example). There's a lot of downtime in PvE so switching things around often isn't that much of a hassle.
For PvP, it depends on what I'm doing. High armor is pretty much always useful as max armor is 9-11 health higher than minimum armor (depending on class). That potentially lets you live through some things or damage combos you couldn't survive otherwise, like tripmine grenade explosions for example. Agility is playstyle dependent. If you're rushing, high agility can be good for getting in close quicker and dodging/strafing/jumping around like crazy. If you're mostly hanging in the back sniping, agility is pretty lackluster. Recovery is just kind of there. I don't spec for it or against it specifically, it just ends up whereever my armor and agility settings put it. So if I know I'll be playing a max armor Sunsinger and mostly hanging back and not rushing, I'll end up with max armor and max recovery with low agility. If I'm blink shotty rushing with a Bladedancer, I'll go max armor and agility, leaving me with little recovery. And so forth and so on. Titans are a bit of a special case. If you can master the "fast lift" movement mechanics used by some of the top players, you can spec for armor and recovery with no agility and still move faster than any other class in the game.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 9, 2015 12:15:51 GMT -5
I think the problem though is the 272 cap. It's rare that a person will ever been running a pure 100% vs 0%. Doing that, one tends to then set themselves up for wasting some of there stats. Like having a 350 Intellect, where 78 of it is wasted.
Take the Warlock. I like to run double fusions under SunSinger, using VoidFang to get me two grenades immediately upon every respawn. If I typically go 17-14 every game, that means I am respawning with grenades around every 50 seconds or so in the game. When you consider that, plus it typically takes around 7 to 10 seconds to get back into the action, and sometimes another 5 seconds to find an encounter .....I don't think I typically need 100 discipline on my load-out.I always have a grenade for the first encounter I hit. A second as backup. With the second, even at 75% max discipline, my wait time is minimal..maybe 15 seconds or so until my first grenade recharges. I would rough guess even with 75% discipline, I am almost always with grenades the entire game.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 9, 2015 12:48:02 GMT -5
I think the problem though is the 272 cap. It's rare that a person will ever been running a pure 100% vs 0%. Doing that, one tends to then set themselves up for wasting some of there stats. Like having a 350 Intellect, where 78 of it is wasted. Take the Warlock. I like to run double fusions under SunSinger, using VoidFang to get me two grenades immediately upon every respawn. If I typically go 17-14 every game, that means I am respawning with grenades around every 50 seconds or so in the game. When you consider that, plus it typically takes around 7 to 10 seconds to get back into the action, and sometimes another 5 seconds to find an encounter .....I don't think I typically need 100 discipline on my load-out.I always have a grenade for the first encounter I hit. A second as backup. With the second, even at 75% max discipline, my wait time is minimal..maybe 15 seconds or so until my first grenade recharges. I would rough guess even with 75% discipline, I am almost always with grenades the entire game. There thoughts are precisely why I started this thread, to optimize armors to the full extent possible for max benefit. The more I learn about the loadout (subclass setup & armor setup) optimization, the more intrigued I become on this topic. If you are into this kind of things, you'll see that there are huge room for improvement. Since loadout optimization can make far more impact in PvP than in PvE, for the moment let's narrow the discussion to PvP. Lots of things to consider: 1) Identify top talents/perks that you can get out of your subclass and exotic armor; 2) think of every other choices from the angle of maximizing 1), including: a) play styles. As Heb touched upon, to simplify there are 2 main styles: aggressive rushing into CQC vs. keep the distance ranged attack. You'll need both in a game, but you can pick one as primary and one as secondary based on 1); b) Int / Dis / Str setup to optimize 1; c) Armor talents to prefer based on what you can get from 1), Ideally to even chain things together. Say you can get a lot of kills from grenades per game (e.g.: using Voidfang + Axion Bolt), then you probably should highly prefer QUINTESSENCE TRANSFER, which will reward you 7% super charge per grenade kill. 3) Customize Armor / Agility / Recovery accordingly This reddit link Heb recommended earlier demonstrates how deep you can go with such efforts. In your IB thread we discussed at length that a) Destiny is a loot based game, and b) there are things that players can get better at that is specific to the Destiny sandbox. Loadout customization can tie two things together: play deeper into PvP to see how much more optimization you can do and then go on looting effort to acquire things you need. It's just a way to have fun from the game. Among players with similar general FPS skills, the ones that have more optimized loadout are much more likely to triumph. Of course, there are lots of players out there who don't consider this fun. In that case they don't have to bother. A player with stronger general FPS skills with no loadout considerations whatsoever can still easily trump a less skilled player with the best possible loadout.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 9, 2015 13:06:40 GMT -5
(cont'd)
In your specific example, you can see that how play style work together with other considerations. You are playing a very aggressive style with your setup, which will result into dying more often. Voidfang actually lets you benefit from that side effect, "rewarding" you two free grenades upon death. If most of the time you die shortly after using your two grenades, then yes, there is no need for high discipline.
This also gels very well with your decision of using Fireborn. Because you don't care about dying as much as a more conservative player, you probably almost always have a chance to come back from death right after your super is charged. Also, respawn at where you die is exactly what you desire the most, because the biggest drawback of a super aggressive play style with dying more often is you have to make a long run back into action after spawn, and fireborn eliminates that.
In this ladout + play style combo, you probably should consider an Int + Str split, especially when Sunsinger also has the best melee in the game. You should also look for armor pieces with QUINTESSENCE TRANSFER (7% super recharge per grenade kill), SERPENT’S TAIL (melee damage -> 7% grenade) and SERPENT’S MOUTH (grenade damage -> 3% melee).
If however you are playing with a style that can give you a longer streak from time to time, then you'll wish to have faster grenade recharge time. Also keep in mind having a kill streak has significant benefits, because you'll get more super energy on the 3rd kills and beyond vs. 1st and 2nd kill. For such a player, Radiant Skin is a much better choice because he wants to use the super as soon as it is ready and not having to wait for death, and the extra health can further keep him alive. In this case, Int + Dis split is much more desirable.
There is also players like me who sometimes just can't get anything going, and is not very effective in using Radiance. When things are not going my way, I sometimes just go for a Dis + Str split, and rely on the Flaming Shield to survive CQC encounters. Not a very good choice, and I would like to switch to the above two styles if possible.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 9, 2015 13:38:16 GMT -5
Couldn't have said it better myself, Witty. Well done.
IW, to your point about the goofy splits with something like 350 INT, in that case you're probably better off figuring out a different setup to avoid wasting so many points. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. In my case I got lucky on my Hunter and can hit 282 INT and 264 DIS, so I'm barely over on INT and barely short (97%) on DIS so I'm not missing out on much wasting those points. On my Titan though I have more of a choice to make. I can hit either 212/319/0 with one setup, or 212/230/72 (approximately, I can't recall the exact splits offhand). Is it worth the slightly longer grenade cooldown to have a slightly shorter melee cooldown? Maybe. It probably just depends on how well I can control encounters or what game type I'm in that day. If I can keep people at range, or I'm playing control, then grenades are probably better. If I can't hold people off, then the melee boost might be better.
In any case, if you guys are looking for gear with specific perks, make sure you check out the vanguard and faction vendors. There are quite a few pieces that offer good bonuses from a PvP standpoint. I think I've bought 4 or 5 pieces between my 3 characters. For Hunters specifically, there's a great helmet and gauntlet set from the vanguard. Everybody is probably swimming in marks at this point, and that's probably the best place to spend them. I think the helmet has quintessence transfer and melee attack speed, while the gauntlets have faster hand cannon reload and better grenade throw distance, and both are an INT/DIS split.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 9, 2015 13:40:12 GMT -5
A lot depends on the score of the game Witty, with how I play. I know people will disagree with me on this....but if my side has a +1 on the flags, even trading kills further increases the lead. Especially if you use grenades (which give a +10 bonus, same as melee's and headshots). I rush in and get a kill with a grenade. +210pts to my team. I die in the process, they get +150. Our lead goes up 60pts. That's a good thing, trading kills. Have them triple capped? Trade away quickly. Maybe not for the 10-kill bounty, but it works for IB, in which my my excessive activity maybe helps get the other bounties done faster.
edit...to Heb.
Well, yeah. That was my point. I never go over the limit in PvP. I would rather have 80% Int, 74% Disc, and some strength left over than go over the 272. Especially warlocks, where it's punch seems to one-hit kill everything. That's a great tool to have when playing a shotgun. Which is why I do try to push some stats into Strength. I truly think this helps get an extra kill or two a game. Here's my thinking. You are right in that you don't need the Scorch on a followup punch...BUT...if you run into multiple enemies, exhaust your five bullet clip....it's nice to have a one-kill punch back up for the 2nd or 3rd opponent. Typically, this isn't something that is needed THAT often. Once every 30 seconds? Maybe 45 seconds? If so...doing the math, that's why I like to have a little bit on Melee. Taking the cooldown from 69 seconds down to 50 seconds...which might further drop to 35/40- with mods. I get in that target range...I have it ready every time I need to use it.
and I agree. I always try to wear equipment that has perks I will use. Many of leveled up pieces are Vang and Cruc pieces. Things that have Special weapon reload perks, extra shotgun ammo, faster melee. I focus all on these in the armor.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 9, 2015 15:14:44 GMT -5
I agree with most of what's been said here - Sunsingers are the only ones whose charged melee is worth anything in PvP, and even with them, I can't imagine I frequently find myself using melee at intervals where it would have been charged if I had higher Strength.
Grenades and Supers are the top weapons (outside of the heavy drops) in Crucible, and I find it very hard to find reason not to use Lucky Raspberry/Armamentarium/Voidfang exclusively, with max Int/Disc builds (excluding Voidfang's Str roll).
Perks - Legendary helmets have a weak set of potential perks overall, it kind of seems like more super energy from grenade kills is the way to go by default, not because it is particularly powerful. Don't sleep on increased grenade throw distance. It's particularly useful in ToO. You can get an Firebolt on a distant enemy around a corner much more easily, and put a Tripmine/Lightning grenade on enemy ghosts from great distances. I've sniped enemies at the other end of the sniper corridor on Pantheon, then thrown a Tripmine/Lightning grenade all the way into the wall behind their body and gotten one or two of their teammates.
If you're not using Hand Cannon loader, and you're using a Hand Cannon, use Hand Cannon loader. Seriously, it turns TLW into a different weapon, being able to pre-fire and just hold down the trigger, knowing you can reload quickly.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 9, 2015 15:36:24 GMT -5
good point. I forgot about that. You have to run strength with Voidfang. At least my version of it, it's all strength, something like +150 Strength.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 9, 2015 15:50:57 GMT -5
I agree with most of what's been said here - Sunsingers are the only ones whose charged melee is worth anything in PvP, and even with them, I can't imagine I frequently find myself using melee at intervals where it would have been charged if I had higher Strength. Grenades and Supers are the top weapons (outside of the heavy drops) in Crucible, and I find it very hard to find reason not to use Lucky Raspberry/Armamentarium/Voidfang exclusively, with max Int/Disc builds (excluding Voidfang's Str roll). Perks - Legendary helmets have a weak set of potential perks overall, it kind of seems like more super energy from grenade kills is the way to go by default, not because it is particularly powerful. Don't sleep on increased grenade throw distance. It's particularly useful in ToO. You can get an Firebolt on a distant enemy around a corner much more easily, and put a Tripmine/Lightning grenade on enemy ghosts from great distances. I've sniped enemies at the other end of the sniper corridor on Pantheon, then thrown a Tripmine/Lightning grenade all the way into the wall behind their body and gotten one or two of their teammates. If you're not using Hand Cannon loader, and you're using a Hand Cannon, use Hand Cannon loader. Seriously, it turns TLW into a different weapon, being able to pre-fire and just hold down the trigger, knowing you can reload quickly. Isn't Ram one of the top dogs as well, if not THE choice? Ram has a split Int/Str roll which is not ideal. For ToO, we should also consider exotic armors with "Keepers of the Pack" (revive and be revived faster), right? For a team of 3, having 2 players run these so no matter who revive who it will always be fast. Armors with the talent: Hunter / Titan = Crest of Alpha Lupi, Warlock = Light Beyond Nemesis. Both Hunter's CoAL and Warlock's LBN have strength rolls as well. So these 7 are currently in my considerations for loadout optimization, and maybe symbiote: Warlock: Ram / Voidfang / LBN Hunter: LuckyR / CoAL / Symbiote Titan: Armamentarium / CoAL
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 10, 2015 12:40:04 GMT -5
After buying this week's PoE Titan boots and a Int/Dis split helm from Crucible Handler, I have gotten my Titan to a reasonably good state:
Armamentarium build: Int = 242, Dis = 308 CoAL build: Int = 273, Dis = 268
Hunter is OKish:
Lucky Raspberry build: Int = 293, Dis = 244 CoAL build: Int = 272, Dis - 117, Str = 156 (from CoAL) Symbiote build: Int = 272, Dis = 266
Warlock is a tough one to optimize, since all top exotics have strength.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 10, 2015 17:10:19 GMT -5
BTW, if you are still holding onto the Vanguard and Crucible commendations like me and are wondering how to best use them, I have a suggestion:
1) go through your guardians and see what you need to optimize armor stats; 2) go through vendors and see who have the pieces that you desire; 3) if you need something from a cult vendor but you have not reached rank 2+ on that vendor yet: use either commendations towards ranking up on that cult; 4) if you need something from Crucible vendor but you have not reached Crucible rank 3 yet: use the Crucible commendations towards Crucible ranking up;
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 10, 2015 17:27:07 GMT -5
Vendors who sell armors with Int/Dis split:
1) Crucible Handler
Titan Helm = 63 / 55 Titan Gauntlet = 49 / 53 Titan Chest = 78 / 83 Titan boots = 71 / 74
Warlock Helm = 56 / 50 Warlock Gauntlet = 54 / 50 Warlock Chest = 83 / 80 Warlock Boots = 73 / 70
(no Int/Dis offerings for Hunters)
2) Vanguard
Hunter Helm = 58 / 62 Hunter Gauntlet = 49 / 52 (no Int/Dis offerings for chests) Hunter Boots = 77 / 76
Warlock Helm = 56 / 55 Warlock Gauntlet = 52 / 49 Warlock Chest = 84 / 83 Warlock Boots = 70 / 67
(Titan Vanguard don't have Int/Dis offerings)
3) Future War Cult: Int / Dis offerings with same stats for all classes
Helm = 57 / 58 Gauntlet = 52 / 52 Chest = 74 / 84 Boots = 70 / 67
4) Dead Orbit: only have Dis / Str offerings for all classes
5) New Monarchy: only have Int / Str offerings for all classes
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 10, 2015 17:37:16 GMT -5
Same info, but transposed by class (the stats are close enough, so maybe talents should have bigger weight when trying to decide which one to buy)
1) Titan:
Helm: Crucible = 63 / 55, FWC = 57 / 58 Gauntlet: Crucible = 49 / 53, FWC = 52 / 52 Chest: Crucible = 78 / 83, FWC = 74 / 84 Boots: Crucible = 71 / 74, FWC = 70 / 67
2) Hunter:
Helm: Vanguard = 58 / 62, FWC = 57 / 58 Gauntlet: Vanguard = 49 / 52, FWC = 52 / 52 Chest: FWC = 74 / 84 Boots: Vanguard = 77 / 76, FWC = 70 / 67
3) Warlock:
Helm: Crucible = 56 / 50, Vanguard = 56 / 55, FWC = 57 / 58 Gauntlet: Crucible = 54 / 50, Vanguard = 52 / 49, FWC = 52 / 52 Chest: Crucible = 78 / 83, Vanguard = 84 / 83, FWC = 74 / 84 Boots: Crucible = 73 / 70, Vanguard = 70 / 67, FWC = 70 / 67
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