I just went 12-0 in a competitive playlist Crucible game.

[TheHawkNY]

Oct 12, 2017 12:38:29 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

Oct 12, 2017 11:07:05 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

Teamshotting does not mean you have to be close to each other. However, if your enemies are competent players, not being close to one another is suicide. You can't consistently effectively flank competent players. If they are in a gunfight with your teammates, and you come from a different direction, they will use cover to be shielded from your teammates and then light you up.

Where is there any strategy in Destiny PvP? Where is there any diversity in playstyle?

To be fair, teamshotting is kind of always going to be a thing in any high TTK game, it’s not a Destiny specific issue. That scenario above just comes with the territory, doesn’t it? I’d argue the strategy is being on the same page enough with your team so that when they counter your flank, you get teammates that push hard to counter their counter. You really do need to be able to switch from a somewhat passive play style to a very aggressive one quickly (and vice versa) to have the most success IMO.

I understand that teamshotting is going to be a thing in any high TTK game. I don't have a problem with teamshotting per se.

What you described isn't strategy, it's skill and teamwork. Strategy implies that there are a variety of options. There aren't a variety of different strategies. "Everyone stay together" vs. "someone flank" is not the depth I think that any of us would call strategy. So where's the strategy?

[markopolo]

Well... we tried the "Follow Hawk and let Him and Glavil Kill Everything So Polo and Company Won't Die As Much" strategy.... and we know how well it worked.

I blame Commander....

[hebbnh]

I think the potential is there for a lot of strategizing, albeit some game modes obviously cater more to that than others. Off the top of my head: what lane(s) are you locking down? What flag(s) or part of the map are you trying to hold? Are you trying to plant a bomb or just wipe the enemy team? Which bomb takes priority? What are your counter play options when your plan A doesn’t work? When do you use your super? Are you setting up a spawn trap? What route are you taking to get to X position? What about your teammates?

I think a big issue in the seeming lack of strategy is the number of PvE people that jump into PvP and have absolutely no clue how to play. They’re only around to finish a quest or milestone and could care less otherwise. When they’re running around like idiots it makes doing much of anything other than theamshotting an effort in futility

[markopolo]

True; quickplay and IB aren't really strategy games.

Trials though, that's different

[iw5000]

Oct 12, 2017 13:50:27 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

I think the potential is there for a lot of strategizing, albeit some game modes obviously cater more to that than others. Off the top of my head: what lane(s) are you locking down? What flag(s) or part of the map are you trying to hold? Are you trying to plant a bomb or just wipe the enemy team? Which bomb takes priority? What are your counter play options when your plan A doesn’t work? When do you use your super? Are you setting up a spawn trap? What route are you taking to get to X position? What about your teammates?

I think a big issue in the seeming lack of strategy is the number of PvE people that jump into PvP and have absolutely no clue how to play. They’re only around to finish a quest or milestone and could care less otherwise. When they’re running around like idiots it makes doing much of anything other than theamshotting an effort in futility

I don't think control lends itself very well to spawn trapping. While I can't find copies of the maps, Hawk said (and it feels that way) that the control points are triangular in nature. That plus it's 4x4, is going to make it almost impossible. And then throw in 'insta-win' combinations like rockets and /or supers, it's just not feasible.


Good points about the game mode. With iron banner, I'm more concerned with getting the three challenges done. Then winning as a second priority.

[hebbnh]

Check the crucible playbook subreddit. There’s a map link on the lower right side that has top-down views of most maps. Still missing a couple though.

[iw5000]

Oct 12, 2017 14:49:51 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

Check the crucible playbook subreddit. There’s a map link on the lower right side that has top-down views of most maps. Still missing a couple though.

Now we're talking.

First thing I read is this, ...is this true?

"All in all, I think resilience is the worst, most uninteresting stat. The difference between 4 and 10 resilience is a joke in PvP. It makes almost no difference in most engagements. The difference between 4 and 10 mobility is like running through mud and being on crack."

I found this chart...

0 185.45
1 187.27
2 189.09
3 190.90
4 192.72
5 194.54
6 196.36
7 197.57
8 198.78
9 200

I think bullets to the body are between 10-12 autos & pulses, 22-25 for scouts, and 35-37 for hand cannons....so really, going from 192 health to 200, is like 8 points addition. It's not even giving you an extra bullet is it?

185/23 for a scout, is around 8 bullets plus. Bumping up your health to 200, it's the same amount of bullets.
10 201.21

[markopolo]

I find that interesting because I was playing with different armour types in Crucible and that mobility was ultimately irrelevant and resilience was the most relevant.

I personally run a 1/6/8 build and find it works the best for me

[iw5000]

Oct 12, 2017 13:50:27 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

I think the potential is there for a lot of strategizing, albeit some game modes obviously cater more to that than others. Off the top of my head: what lane(s) are you locking down? What flag(s) or part of the map are you trying to hold? Are you trying to plant a bomb or just wipe the enemy team? Which bomb takes priority? What are your counter play options when your plan A doesn’t work? When do you use your super? Are you setting up a spawn trap? What route are you taking to get to X position? What about your teammates?

I think a big issue in the seeming lack of strategy is the number of PvE people that jump into PvP and have absolutely no clue how to play. They’re only around to finish a quest or milestone and could care less otherwise. When they’re running around like idiots it makes doing much of anything other than theamshotting an effort in futility

from the link you gave me. This is a gold mine

www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/74izd1/sga_the_importance_of_having_a_game_plan/

[malgato]

Oct 12, 2017 15:36:02 GMT -5 markopolo said:

I find that interesting because I was playing with different armour types in Crucible and that mobility was ultimately irrelevant and resilience was the most relevant.

I personally run a 1/6/8 build and find it works the best for me

I think top level players are stacking the maximum amount of recovery possible AFTER hitting the threshold of 4 resilience (which is considered the optimal value for health). Mobility is almost completely ignored by top players.

All of which, of course, sucks for Hunters. Which is irrelevant because everyone should be playing Warlock.

[hebbnh]

That’s pretty much what I’m doing. Hit 4 resilience because that’s the threshold where MIDA and the other 200 rpm scouts go from a 3h2b to a 4h1b kill, and where 180 rpm scouts go from a potential 4 shot kill with all crits to a 5 shot kill at best. Everything else goes into getting as much recovery as possible. Mobility is ignored completely because it only affects walking/strafing speed (no affect on sprint speed!) and jump height. I don’t find either of those very important, and you can get some of those benefits from equipping MIDA or another weapon with move speed perks.

[wings]

Oct 12, 2017 14:03:22 GMT -5 markopolo said:

Trials though, that's different

Not really. Countdown is Search and Destroy for noobs and Survival is just how Gears of War does TDM in its casual playlists. There's barely any strategy involved in any of the game modes.

[qupie]

Oct 12, 2017 12:51:23 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

Oct 12, 2017 12:38:29 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

To be fair, teamshotting is kind of always going to be a thing in any high TTK game, it’s not a Destiny specific issue. That scenario above just comes with the territory, doesn’t it? I’d argue the strategy is being on the same page enough with your team so that when they counter your flank, you get teammates that push hard to counter their counter. You really do need to be able to switch from a somewhat passive play style to a very aggressive one quickly (and vice versa) to have the most success IMO.

I understand that teamshotting is going to be a thing in any high TTK game. I don't have a problem with teamshotting per se.

What you described isn't strategy, it's skill and teamwork. Strategy implies that there are a variety of options. There aren't a variety of different strategies. "Everyone stay together" vs. "someone flank" is not the depth I think that any of us would call strategy. So where's the strategy?

This is just blatantly oversimplification of gameplay, and can be said for absolutely any FPS game. "Just point and shoot, how is that challenging?" Or "Just drive the optimal line" in racing games. How can one counter such an argument on a message board? Look at what bad teams do (what you describe) and what great teams do, and you will notice the difference. There is hell of a lot more strategy in D2 than there ever was in D1 imho.

Take overwatch for example, which is imho a super strategic game. One could state; "All you have to do is DPS, heal and tank, how is that strategic?" Yeah that is a huge oversimplification of the actual things that happen.

Sure a good team can block off one side of the engagement, but that requires some real skill and map knowledge. Quick on your feet thinking, and being on one page with your team. What about when 4 players attack from 3 different sides? Strategy also implies (for me personally) that gaining power positions has value. This was hardly the case in D1, maybe in some maps like the couldron. Strategy also implies when you use your grenade or super, since they are not available every 20 seconds anymore.

How is something like this, not strategy? www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/72duia/eternity_flawless_trials_guide_routes_strategy_etc/

Just because you don't really strategice, doesn't mean it is not possible. I have seen a lot of players just going into crucible like it was D1 and state that it absolutely sucks. Well I agreed, it sucked the first few games, because I was playing as if it was D1. Since that first weekend of trials a lot has changed. I adapted, and this is a great game. Far more strategic than D1 ever was for starters. You could simply loose because you were out of position. If that is not a strategic fps game I don't know what is.

[qupie]

Oct 12, 2017 15:36:02 GMT -5 markopolo said:

I find that interesting because I was playing with different armour types in Crucible and that mobility was ultimately irrelevant and resilience was the most relevant.

I personally run a 1/6/8 build and find it works the best for me

Imho 3(4)/4/rest is optimal. No mobility will let you not get away from fights quick enough. 4 resilience is simply the best choice in the current meta (6 can be usefull against last hope, but that is about it). the next threshold is 10, but that is simply too much sacrifice for a really small benefit. Recovery is key, but don't underestimate mobility. A lot of top players I have been watching have been switching to at least a little bit of mobility (also for me personally, it is better because my hunter has 4 minimum, and titan/warlock feels so damn slow without any mobility if I switch characters). Strafing is one thing, but you also have to remember that from the moment you are shooting your enemy, to the moment you are trying to get away, there is a moment you are not sprinting yet. Mobility is huge in that instance, it is the difference between getting away and dying. Or it is the difference between firing 2 shots or 3 shots before needing to back out in order to survive.

[TheHawkNY]

Oct 13, 2017 3:24:31 GMT -5 qupie said:

Oct 12, 2017 12:51:23 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

I understand that teamshotting is going to be a thing in any high TTK game. I don't have a problem with teamshotting per se.

What you described isn't strategy, it's skill and teamwork. Strategy implies that there are a variety of options. There aren't a variety of different strategies. "Everyone stay together" vs. "someone flank" is not the depth I think that any of us would call strategy. So where's the strategy?

This is just blatantly oversimplification of gameplay, and can be said for absolutely any FPS game. "Just point and shoot, how is that challenging?" Or "Just drive the optimal line" in racing games. How can one counter such an argument on a message board? Look at what bad teams do (what you describe) and what great teams do, and you will notice the difference. There is hell of a lot more strategy in D2 than there ever was in D1 imho.

Take overwatch for example, which is imho a super strategic game. One could state; "All you have to do is DPS, heal and tank, how is that strategic?" Yeah that is a huge oversimplification of the actual things that happen.

Sure a good team can block off one side of the engagement, but that requires some real skill and map knowledge. Quick on your feet thinking, and being on one page with your team. What about when 4 players attack from 3 different sides? Strategy also implies (for me personally) that gaining power positions has value. This was hardly the case in D1, maybe in some maps like the couldron. Strategy also implies when you use your grenade or super, since they are not available every 20 seconds anymore.

How is something like this, not strategy? www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/72duia/eternity_flawless_trials_guide_routes_strategy_etc/

Just because you don't really strategice, doesn't mean it is not possible. I have seen a lot of players just going into crucible like it was D1 and state that it absolutely sucks. Well I agreed, it sucked the first few games, because I was playing as if it was D1. Since that first weekend of trials a lot has changed. I adapted, and this is a great game. Far more strategic than D1 ever was for starters. You could simply loose because you were out of position. If that is not a strategic fps game I don't know what is.

Let me break down this guide for you - on defense, split up, communicate where the enemies are, attack when you have numbers, stay alive when you don't. On offense, stick together, attack when you have numbers, stay alive when you don't. What are the other winning strategies? Where are the parts where it matters what character you use at all? Where's the mention of any other weapon other than MIDA?

Look at your Overwatch comparison. Even in the most simplistic breakdown you could imagine, there are three different roles, which can't be said of Destiny. There are 25 characters in Overwatch, and only 5 I'm comfortable playing in competitive (with over 400 hours played), because each one requires a completely different way of approaching the game. There's just no sort of depth like that in Destiny.

[qupie]

No there is no hero style depth in destiny, as there is in a hero shooter. You got that right.

My sole point was that you can oversimplify everything. Go play a good team and you will see how tactics can change a game. The fact you still think MIDA is the end all be all demonstrates how little experience you have against good teams honestly. Antiope, mannanan, FWC scout, last hope, Uriels are all at least as popular, if not more popular with good players.

[iw5000]

Oct 19, 2017 10:40:23 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

Let me break down this guide for you - on defense, split up, communicate where the enemies are, attack when you have numbers, stay alive when you don't. On offense, stick together, attack when you have numbers, stay alive when you don't. What are the other winning strategies? Where are the parts where it matters what character you use at all? Where's the mention of any other weapon other than MIDA?

Look at your Overwatch comparison. Even in the most simplistic breakdown you could imagine, there are three different roles, which can't be said of Destiny. There are 25 characters in Overwatch, and only 5 I'm comfortable playing in competitive (with over 400 hours played), because each one requires a completely different way of approaching the game. There's just no sort of depth like that in Destiny.

I agree with Hawk.

While D2's trials can be pretty difficult (ok, very difficult), it just doesn't feel as complex in terms of tactics as when playing Call of Duty. I feel like one can easily compare them too, as CoD's competitive game mode was SnD, which is almost the same as D2's version of it. So almost identical modes, same FPS gamestyle .....But CoD's version felt more complex in terms of tactics.

[qupie]

You really think so? search and destroy had not even any additional objectives like power ammo. And planting and defusing was super fast.

Heh I guess different players different oppinions.

[iw5000]

Oct 20, 2017 10:11:08 GMT -5 qupie said:

You really think so? search and destroy had not even any additional objectives like power ammo. And planting and defusing was super fast.

Heh I guess different players different oppinions.

the ability to lone wolf in CoD, flank and just take out multiple people (with the faster ttk), seems to me to present more complex issues. Plus, the additional classes, gear, guns, etc...

I might be splitting hairs though, I don't know. For some things, it's a wash. Both were 4v4. Destiny had a super to use once or twice a game....CoD had killstreaks to use once or twice a game. Team killing is present in both to some degree (one guy can't beat two or three in CoD either). So yeah, a lot of similarities.

[qupie]

Yeah I don't think the ability to take out multiple opponents is actually more tactical. More of the opposite. faster TTK favors twitch skills while lower TTK favors teamplay.

[iw5000]

Oct 20, 2017 10:18:03 GMT -5 qupie said:

Yeah I don't think the ability to take out multiple opponents is actually more tactical. More of the opposite. faster TTK favors twitch skills while lower TTK favors teamplay.

Yes, but as Hawk said up above, the slower TTK forces more grouping together. Creating a more homogenous style of play.

[TheHawkNY]

Oct 20, 2017 6:29:23 GMT -5 qupie said:

No there is no hero style depth in destiny, as there is in a hero shooter. You got that right.

My sole point was that you can oversimplify everything. Go play a good team and you will see how tactics can change a game. The fact you still think MIDA is the end all be all demonstrates how little experience you have against good teams honestly. Antiope, mannanan, FWC scout, last hope, Uriels are all at least as popular, if not more popular with good players.

What makes you think I have no experience against good teams? 77 games of Trials and I haven't gone up against a single team that was more than the sum of its parts.

Nowhere did I say I thought the MIDA was the end all be all. My most used weapons are Antiope + Black Scorpion.

[qupie]

That combo is absolute gold! Love it too. Still searching for the mannanan though.