Some black ops 4 stats (post beta)

[exaltedvanguard]

Nov 8, 2018 18:46:13 GMT -5 KenDirson said:

Yowza it's been a long time since I've been here, but with the first CoD I've gotten into since BO2, here I am.

Looks like this game brought back several of us oldies, eh?

Regarding soft-stats vs hard stats. I only use hard stats because I'm theory crafting around a perfect player. This is obviously not reality, which is why I give my reasonings and general conclusions rather than just stating what gun is best.

Then players can decide on their own what they're capable of, what weapon best matches their strengths (or weaknesses), what weapon matches their playstyle best, and factor in all the intangible soft-stats that go along with all this. My analyses are simply intended to provide a baseline.

And with that said, I have nothing constructive left to add to the AR comparisons at this time. People can draw whatever conclusions they want.

---

I did some brief testing optics and quick-draw 2 today, simply because I haven't seen much information on them. My primary curiosity was quickdraw 2's statement that says that, in addition to even faster ADS, it grants extra peripheral vision. I wasn't sure exactly how this would function on zoom-sights - if it would cause some sort of bizarre fish-eye effect. I tested this on the Maddox, but I have no reason to believe there's any difference on the swordfish or koshka(?). And for transparency this was simply me taking screenshots (Xbox) and eyeballing things, but it's a pretty clear result.

First off, these are the optic zooms, according to the in-game descriptions:
Reflex: 1.35x
Holo: 1.75x
Dual-Zoom: 1.5x/3x

Iron sights match the zoom of the reflex sight, so that makes them 1.35x.

Interestingly, the ELO sight is actally slightly more zoomed out. It's very subtle and not mentioned in the description, but it certainly explains why so many players prefer the ELO sight over red-dot despite them being identical at first glance. I'd spitball the number 1.25x. It's not huge, but it's enough to make a difference in close quarters, and it gives you a distinct reason to equip this sight even on a gun that already has good irons. I can't believe this isn't directly mentioned in the description...

QD2's interaction with zoom sights is very simple. It simply negates the zoom and overwrites it with it's own. Regardless of whether you're running a holosight or an ELO sight, your zoom/FOV will be the same when using QD2. The QD2 zoom is even more zoomed out than the ELO sight. It is just barely more zoomed in than hipfire. I'm guesstimating 1.1x.

Also, to clarify the caveat in its description, QD2 overrides the zoom on the base level of dual zoom, and has no effect when you zoom in. In other words dual-zoom is now 1.1x/3x instead of 1.5x/3x.

QD2 is a double-edged sword. The faster ADS is 100% a good thing, obviously, but the wider FOV is situational. It can certainly help when you're up-close and personal, allowing you to track targets in the periphery better. However there is a significant drawback when engaging both mid and long range targets. I say again, because this is a significant consideration: QD2 can potentially have a negative effect on your midrange engagements, which is presumably the bread and butter of the rifles capable of equipping this attachment. Since you are barely zooming in, it can make placing your shots on target significantly more difficult since your target is smaller. QD2 can potentially make landing shots on someone behind cover or at range more difficult. It's up to the individual player to decide whether the ADS and close-range benefits make this trade-off worth it. You can partially offset this with a dual-zoom scope, but it's far less than ideal in practice. The 3x is generally too zoomed for midrange and is only suitable for long range, so there's still a big glaring flaw at midrange. Additionally, the delay of zooming in or out (or doing it ahead of time) goes directly against the main reason to use QD - to ADS quickly and start firing as fast as possible. Slow calculated gameplay that can manage zoom levels really has no need for QD2 in the first place, since it's, you know, slow and calculated gameplay. Not to mention that the dual-zoom optic is large and still quite view-obstructing.

[banana]

Nov 8, 2018 18:46:13 GMT -5 KenDirson said:

and they have reduced flinch baked in, which is enormous.

wait, what??

[KenDirson]

Nov 9, 2018 22:40:31 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

Nov 8, 2018 18:46:13 GMT -5 KenDirson said:

Yowza it's been a long time since I've been here, but with the first CoD I've gotten into since BO2, here I am.

Looks like this game brought back several of us oldies, eh?

Regarding soft-stats vs hard stats. I only use hard stats because I'm theory crafting around a perfect player. This is obviously not reality, which is why I give my reasonings and general conclusions rather than just stating what gun is best.

Then players can decide on their own what they're capable of, what weapon best matches their strengths (or weaknesses), what weapon matches their playstyle best, and factor in all the intangible soft-stats that go along with all this. My analyses are simply intended to provide a baseline.

And with that said, I have nothing constructive left to add to the AR comparisons at this time. People can draw whatever conclusions they want.

---

I did some brief testing optics and quick-draw 2 today, simply because I haven't seen much information on them. My primary curiosity was quickdraw 2's statement that says that, in addition to even faster ADS, it grants extra peripheral vision. I wasn't sure exactly how this would function on zoom-sights - if it would cause some sort of bizarre fish-eye effect. I tested this on the Maddox, but I have no reason to believe there's any difference on the swordfish or koshka(?). And for transparency this was simply me taking screenshots (Xbox) and eyeballing things, but it's a pretty clear result.

First off, these are the optic zooms, according to the in-game descriptions:
Reflex: 1.35x
Holo: 1.75x
Dual-Zoom: 1.5x/3x

Iron sights match the zoom of the reflex sight, so that makes them 1.35x.

Interestingly, the ELO sight is actally slightly more zoomed out. It's very subtle and not mentioned in the description, but it certainly explains why so many players prefer the ELO sight over red-dot despite them being identical at first glance. I'd spitball the number 1.25x. It's not huge, but it's enough to make a difference in close quarters, and it gives you a distinct reason to equip this sight even on a gun that already has good irons. I can't believe this isn't directly mentioned in the description...

QD2's interaction with zoom sights is very simple. It simply negates the zoom and overwrites it with it's own. Regardless of whether you're running a holosight or an ELO sight, your zoom/FOV will be the same when using QD2. The QD2 zoom is even more zoomed out than the ELO sight. It is just barely more zoomed in than hipfire. I'm guesstimating 1.1x.

Also, to clarify the caveat in its description, QD2 overrides the zoom on the base level of dual zoom, and has no effect when you zoom in. In other words dual-zoom is now 1.1x/3x instead of 1.5x/3x.

QD2 is a double-edged sword. The faster ADS is 100% a good thing, obviously, but the wider FOV is situational. It can certainly help when you're up-close and personal, allowing you to track targets in the periphery better. However there is a significant drawback when engaging both mid and long range targets. I say again, because this is a significant consideration: QD2 can potentially have a negative effect on your midrange engagements, which is presumably the bread and butter of the rifles capable of equipping this attachment. Since you are barely zooming in, it can make placing your shots on target significantly more difficult since your target is smaller. QD2 can potentially make landing shots on someone behind cover or at range more difficult. It's up to the individual player to decide whether the ADS and close-range benefits make this trade-off worth it. You can partially offset this with a dual-zoom scope, but it's far less than ideal in practice. The 3x is generally too zoomed for midrange and is only suitable for long range, so there's still a big glaring flaw at midrange. Additionally, the delay of zooming in or out (or doing it ahead of time) goes directly against the main reason to use QD - to ADS quickly and start firing as fast as possible. Slow calculated gameplay that can manage zoom levels really has no need for QD2 in the first place, since it's, you know, slow and calculated gameplay. Not to mention that the dual-zoom optic is large and still quite view-obstructing.

That's why you run holo with QD2 on the Maddox. Recoil reduction of the holo but not obscenely zoomed in on a close range weapon, and the frame isn't as atrocious as the dual zoom.

Also, you should see the QD2 Elo Koshka. Ends up resetting zoom to something like the default sniper scope, so you just have a really zoomed in Elo sight with an enormous dot. It's just silly.

[KenDirson]

Nov 11, 2018 12:41:19 GMT -5 banana said:

Nov 8, 2018 18:46:13 GMT -5 KenDirson said:

and they have reduced flinch baked in, which is enormous.

wait, what??

Yup, they found that the LMGs (or LMG, as it was just the Titan) were underpowered in beta, so they gave the entire class flinch reduction. Said it in the launch stream or something. It's weird, cause I thought the Titan was really quite good in the beta.

[blackbarney]

I wonder if they fixed that in this latest big patch.

I hear SMGs are good now... ?

[exaltedvanguard]

I find myself wishing that operator mods only took 2 points to equip (inc. wildcard) instead of 3.

It feels like these attachments are strong enough to justify the 2 points, but not 3. In order to be strong enough to justify that cost, these weapons would have to be so strong as to almost invalidate non-opmod guns. They would certainly be considered a required attachment for any gun they're available on.

I don't really like that approach since it would skew what is now (after patches) pretty decent weapon balance. So instead I'd rather see the cost reduced. The limitation of only 3 other attachments is fine. Just only charge 1 point for equipping it instead of 2.

As it is, it's REALLY hard to justify spending 3 points. 3 points on a bayonet? No thanks. 3 points for extra ammo on the cordite? Nah. I'll take scavenger. 3 points for a minor amount of screen blur on the Titan? Nah.

The only mod I can currently justify is the strobe light on consoles. This is because on consoles it, in addition to causing retinal damage to the player, turns off their aim assist which causes them to fly wildly off target.

[blackbarney]

The strobe light is the shotgun thingie?

[Usagi]

I think they're fine as is. A novelty and nothing more, don't have to worry about them being op or up because they're just for fun.

[exaltedvanguard]

Nov 18, 2018 15:42:24 GMT -5 Usagi said:

I think they're fine as is. A novelty and nothing more, don't have to worry about them being op or up because they're just for fun.

That's the thing. Most of these don't seem intended to just be for fun. And honestly, they all add interesting tactical advantages. They're just to heavy to justify at the moment. I'd love to see them get more play. They're interesting and balanced. They don't need buffs - they just cost too much.

And yes, strobe light is the shotgun thingie

[kylet357]

The best thing about the Strobe light is people complaining about it being OP when it's only available one of the worst shotguns in the series.

[savageide]

So I've come to the conclusion that the biggest reason the Maddox and saug are top tier is their ADS time. Maddox is the only AR with qd2 and saug has already faster ADS plus a "super" qd1.

[exaltedvanguard]

Nov 19, 2018 11:31:29 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

The best thing about the Strobe light is people complaining about it being OP when it's only available one of the worst shotguns in the series.

I'd rather play against a good shotgun without it, to be frank.

It's annoying in the same way that 9 bang is (or was, at least) annoying. You more or less lose control of your character because of it. In the same way you can still hip fire with the 9 bang, you can still "aim" while strobed. But realistically speaking you're dead 9/10 times. I don't mind getting out-played. It's when you more-or-less remove my ability to make a play that I get frustrated.

And again this only applies to consoles since PC players have no aim-assist to take away.

INB4 gitgud. I've played enough PUBG that I can still somewhat fight against strobelight players. That doesn't make it less frustrating.

---

I'm also really hoping a barebones (no specialist) mode is added. The more I play the more I find myself tired of them. I never use an ability and go "Wow! What a play! That was awesome!" Instead it's just, "Free points. Cool."

And when I die to them I'm not even mad. Just bored and uninterested. "Ugh. Again. How lame." How lame that my excellent play is brought to an end by a semi-auto grenade launcher they player did nothing to earn. How lame that my streak was brought to an end by mesh mines I stood no chance of seeing. How lame that some torques are cheesing it up over on that tower. How lame was that seeker mine. The list goes on.

It's not interesting. It's not exciting. And it's certainly not fun. It's just a bunch of crap purposefully designed to help casuals fight against pubstompers. And whether you're a pubstompers or a casual, once you realize that... It sucks. Because both sides of it know that kill wasn't deserved. They both know it was some bullshit.

And once you realize that, it quickly becomes boring and uninteresting. That's probably the worst thing I can possibly say about anything in any game. Boring and uninteresting.

[kylet357]

Tbh all I want them to do is give aim assist back to the sniper rifles so that I can actually fucking aim. With all shit in this game that makes it impossible to hit people (not counting every other player who lag-skips across my screen, which is impossible to hit with any gun), Treyarch have tried again to fuck over quick scopers but instead have fucked over regular snipers. I'd seriously rather them just not give snipers precise accuracy for like a half second after aiming.

[Usagi]

snipers should be removed from the game altogether quite frankly, they just keep getting more op every year

[deston]

Nov 20, 2018 15:30:17 GMT -5 Usagi said:

snipers should be removed from the game altogether quite frankly, they just keep getting more op every year

They'll always be there because the tweens (or their parents) bring in money.

I am however rather content I am not bothering with this release, seeing how snipers are now effectively better at "shotgunning" than these pathetic shotguns they decided to throw in as secondaries. I completely agree with your sentiment however that it's gotten worse every year.

Apparently game studios don't want to be responsible for creating weapons that allow you to kill in one or two bullets at very close range for high risk high reward, when they can give you one-shot-kill at any range weapons and add assists so you'd struggle to miss (on console at least).

[banana]

Nov 13, 2018 10:13:05 GMT -5 KenDirson said:

That's why you run holo with QD2 on the Maddox. Recoil reduction of the holo but not obscenely zoomed in on a close range weapon, and the frame isn't as atrocious as the dual zoom.

Also, you should see the QD2 Elo Koshka. Ends up resetting zoom to something like the default sniper scope, so you just have a really zoomed in Elo sight with an enormous dot. It's just silly.

what else reduces recoil? And where did you see that holo does?

[banana]

Nvm I found it

[blackbarney]

dual zoom has best recoil reduction i think

[exaltedvanguard]

I've only tested some of the sights, but this is what I've found:

Holo and DZ optics provide very similar recoil reduction, with DZ just barely providing a smidge more accuracy. Probably not enough to matter in actual gameplay. DZ physical recoil is the same at both zooms, so being zoomed in will cause more visual recoil of course.

Iron sights and reflex have identical recoil, however reflex provides reduced sway. At least on some weapons. These also have identical zoom levels FYI (at least on ARs, I didn't test SMGs, although I suspect no difference).

ELO has more recoil than irons. However it is more zoomed out, providing a wider FOV. Distinctly focused on CQB.

[gina]

i do like certain aspects of this game after watching some weapon vids, like ARs rather slow RPMs
my last cod was ghosts i think, it seems that one does have way more options to play around with now than the old days, maybe im getting this one

[wg4f]

Nov 20, 2018 16:30:20 GMT -5 deston said:

Nov 20, 2018 15:30:17 GMT -5 Usagi said:

snipers should be removed from the game altogether quite frankly, they just keep getting more op every year

They'll always be there because the tweens (or their parents) bring in money.

I am however rather content I am not bothering with this release, seeing how snipers are now effectively better at "shotgunning" than these pathetic shotguns they decided to throw in as secondaries. I completely agree with your sentiment however that it's gotten worse every year.

Apparently game studios don't want to be responsible for creating weapons that allow you to kill in one or two bullets at very close range for high risk high reward, when they can give you one-shot-kill at any range weapons and add assists so you'd struggle to miss (on console at least).

There isn't aim assist on snipers

[blackbarney]

Nov 22, 2018 17:25:35 GMT -5 gina said:

i do like certain aspects of this game after watching some weapon vids, like ARs rather slow RPMs
my last cod was ghosts i think, it seems that one does have way more options to play around with now than the old days, maybe im getting this one

My last one was Ghosts too and I’m really enjoying this one

[exaltedvanguard]

Just a quick update on my research of optics.

It appears that the default zoom level of the iron sights is dependent upon weapon class. For example the iron sights on an AR match the zoom level of a reflex sight, meanwhile a SMG has iron sights that are zoomed farther out and an lmg has iron sights that are zoom farther in. SMG irons match ELO zoom levels and LMGs match the holographic.

Recoil reduction appears to be relatively linear with zoom where the most zoomed-in sights have the most recoil reduction and the least zoomed-in sights will have the most recoil.

For those curious on LMGs the most zoomed in sight available is the NVIR, and this sight provides the most recoil reduction.

It seems like this was done so that you always pull down on the stick (to compensate for recoil) the same amount regardless of which optic you equip.

Has anyone tested hipfire? Are the crosshair indicators accurate or are they still lies like previous games? I feel as though they are inaccurate, however I don't hipfire very much so I could be wrong on that.

[exaltedvanguard]

So apparently the Titan is overpowered or something according to Reddit. Lol.

It's not a bad gun by any means. But it's not even top 5.

Then again everyone complained about the ICR too. And both complaints seem to focus around players torque-tactical loitering them. Almost as if long range weapons become really strong when you take away the ability to close the gap. 🤔

But yeah, the problem is totally with the guns and not the extremely difficult to counter map-warping specialist abilities that torque provides.... 🙄

Titan is a highly accurate full auto weapon that is otherwise average-to-bad. Weapons like this have always existed in CoD and they've always been crutches for players. And not crutch in the way the CoD fanbase has apparently warped into meaning "good". Crutch in the OG meaning meant something a player requires, and fails without. It seems like the CoD playerbase somehow confused "staple" and "meta" with "crutch".

Anyway, this weapon archetype had always existed as a crutch to players with sub-par aim (or recoil-compensation ability, anyway). Instead of learning to compensate for recoil, they lean on their crutch that always I them to not need to. It will continue to exist forever as well. And as long as it exists, people will use these weapons to camp and get "easy" kills at range.

Meh. Let em. Let's me continue to outgun em.

If something did need nerfing, it's torque. But if we we're gonna nerf the Titan, reduce the wall penetration on fmj 2. It can be a bit annoying sometimes, but maybe that's just cause standard wall penetration is so awful by comparison. And if we want to go nuclear we could remove the stock attachment.

The one thing I hope they don't do is reduce fmj 2 damage vs equipment. It's currently the only viable counter to torque. You can't honestly expect players to stand there and spam ammo and rockets into the barricade. There should really be an option to hold reload to dismantle it if you get behind it.

[illram]

Reddit is the circlest jerk of all circle jerks.

[Usagi]

how bout they nerf the tempest, its better than a gunship

[-3055-]

anyone got numbers on high explosive for hellion salvo? seems to still be garbage

[exaltedvanguard]

Stealth change with the latest patch. Might be a buff or a Nerf, depending on your preferences. QD2 no longer affects zoom.

[tarkin84]

Dec 16, 2018 0:47:12 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

Stealth change with the latest patch. Might be a buff or a Nerf, depending on your preferences. QD2 no longer affects zoom.

What's that stealth change you are referring to? Also, QD2 no longer affects normal Koshka scope?

[exaltedvanguard]

Dec 16, 2018 7:10:21 GMT -5 tarkin84 said:

Dec 16, 2018 0:47:12 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

Stealth change with the latest patch. Might be a buff or a Nerf, depending on your preferences. QD2 no longer affects zoom.

What's that stealth change you are referring to? Also, QD2 no longer affects normal Koshka scope?

QD2 changes weren't listed in the patch notes (unless I missed it?) so that's the stealth change.

Only tested with the Maddox, but I would imagine they changed the other 2 weapons as well

-----

EDIT:
So I was wrong. QD2 still affects zoom, but behavior has changed. I didn't actually notice the true effect until I used the ELO sight. I just saw that it was zooming in with other sights and didn't do a comprehensive test - but the sight I did test was the dual zoom, which is no longer affected.

Comprehensive results below. Tested as always with the Maddox.

Now has no zoom effect on dual zoom (base or magnified).

Holographic is now zoomed out to standard reflex levels.

Reflex is now zoomed out to standard ELO levels.

ELO does not zoom. At all. It's the same fov as hipfire.