Some black ops 4 stats (post beta)

[banana]

www.reddit.com/r/Blackops4/comments/9o9n5t/the_weapon_tier_multiplayer/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit

[vcarnage]

🤔 The Swordfish does not have rapid fire though.

[Disgruntled Jigglypuff]

SMGs are bad.

[banana]

Oct 15, 2018 18:27:57 GMT -5 vcarnage said:

🤔 The Swordfish does not have rapid fire though.

It’s the operator mod, the guy seems to use that and rf interchangeably

[banana]

Just so you guys know, grip ii’s Flinch reduction is absolutely insane

[exaltedvanguard]

Just a heads up, all the TTKs on that page are wrong. If you fire 4 shots, there are 3 delays between bullets (the first is instantaneous).

TTK = (STK - 1)*60/RPM where STK is shots to kill and RPM is rounds per minute.

He missed the -1.

So a 5 shot kill with the ICR (615 RPM) has a TTK of 0.39s.

[exaltedvanguard]

Some more stats here. Same TTK mistake. www.reddit.com/r/Blackops4/comments/9ofzqp/full_weapon_damage_list_and_misc_info/

After some analysis with proper numbers, here's my impressions of the ARs based on stats. Note that I'm using FMJ or Rapid Fire where appropriate for this analysis:

ICR is accurate and its damage doesn't fall off much at range, but is underwhelming in every other aspect. Considering this game's bias toward close range, I'd say that this one is the easiest to rule out. If you really want to play at range, a DMR or sniper rifle are better choices anyway.

The KN-57 is another easy one to rule out. In terms of kill times, it only shines at very close range against unarmored targets. And even then only by a hair. Its damage it just barely above the breakpoint to give it an edge, so at midrange it flounders. If your primary concern is close-range stopping power and you're willing to sacrifice everything else for it, why aren't you looking at SMGs?

This leaves us with the VAPR, Maddox, and Rampart.

Without the op-mod, Maddox and VAPR are comparable with the Maddox just barely better. With the op-mod, the Maddox is better, however that comes with a lot of drawbacks. There's a catch, though. If you can land at least 1 headshot, the VAPR wins. Even without high-caliber (more on that in a bit) and against the op-mod Maddox, the VAPR will kill faster than the Maddox if you land a single headshot. Maddox also suffers from a range problem. Due to the significant drawbacks of using an op-mod, and the ease of landing at least one headshot on a target, I'm going to award the VAPR the win and rule out the Maddox. As an aside, I'd like to point out that due to the damage numbers and breakpoints, headshots don't matter for the Maddox. Just aim for the body.

So we're down to the Rampart and the VAPR. First off, all else being equal, you must run FMJ on the Rampart-17. Without it the VAPR is simply the better gun. This balances out the cost of rapid fire on the VAPR. Before headshots, this means the rampart will kill armored targets faster. Unarmored targets will die at more or less the same speed, with the VAPR killing just a tad faster.

Now let's talk about headshots against unarmored targets. The Rampart needs high-caliber for headshots to matter. Without it, you'll have a 4 shot kill unless you perfectly hit 3 headshots (unlikely). With HC, the rampart drops from 4 shots to 3 shots with only a single headshot. The VAPR on the other hand, drops from a 5-shot to a 4-shot with only a single headshot, regardless of HC.

Comparing a 4-shot VAPR to a 3-shot Rampart is a wash. Pretty much equal. But the Rampart had to spend a point and the VAPR didn't.

Now if the VAPR wants to equip HC, they can. It doesn't matter for the first headshot, but the second headshot will mean the VAPR is now a 3-shot kill. And putting the Rampart to shame while killing blisteringly fast. But only if you land TWO headshots. That comes down to your confidence level, I guess. But where it matters more is against armored targets. HC has a significant affect on armored targets for the VAPR. The math gets really convoluted here. Basically against an armored target without HC, it's a 6 shot skill normally, reduced to 5 if you can land 2 headshots. With HC, each headshot effectively reducing their shots-to-kill by one, so you could potentially kill them in 3 shots.

Lastly there's the soft stats. The VAPR has better irons and faster reload. ADS is equal. The higher fire rate of the VAPR is more forgiving if you miss a shot, but you'll also run out of ammo faster.

To summarize the comparison:
Rampart requires FMJ and high caliber is HIGHLY recommended, meaning at least 2 perks. Irons are pretty bad, probably warranting a third. High caliber II is availible, giving players more leniency to kill extremely quick. Grip is available to help manage recoil.
VAPR requires rapid fire, meaning only a single perk. Irons are fantastic. High caliber is available to help against armored targets and to give skilled players ultra-fast kill times. Stock is available for more mobility.
Both guns have access to long barrel and fast mags. Suppressors are bad due to fog of war existing so not even worth mentioning.

To me, the winner for a skilled player is the VAPR. The better the player, the bigger the advantage. However the Rampart is still an great gun, and a wise player should recognize his own limitations and play to his strengths. These are both great guns. The Rampart-17 is more lenient with high-caliber headshots, while the VAPR has the potential to go from great gun to best gun if put in the right hands.

Also the HADES is a monster. But that's a story for another time.

[Ironforce92]

Oct 17, 2018 20:54:11 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

Some more stats here. Same TTK mistake. www.reddit.com/r/Blackops4/comments/9ofzqp/full_weapon_damage_list_and_misc_info/

After some analysis with proper numbers, here's my impressions of the ARs based on stats. Note that I'm using FMJ or Rapid Fire where appropriate for this analysis:

ICR is accurate and its damage doesn't fall off much at range, but is underwhelming in every other aspect. Considering this game's bias toward close range, I'd say that this one is the easiest to rule out. If you really want to play at range, a DMR or sniper rifle are better choices anyway.

The KN-57 is another easy one to rule out. In terms of kill times, it only shines at very close range against unarmored targets. And even then only by a hair. Its damage it just barely above the breakpoint to give it an edge, so at midrange it flounders. If your primary concern is close-range stopping power and you're willing to sacrifice everything else for it, why aren't you looking at SMGs?

This leaves us with the VAPR, Maddox, and Rampart.

Without the op-mod, Maddox and VAPR are comparable with the Maddox just barely better. With the op-mod, the Maddox is better, however that comes with a lot of drawbacks. There's a catch, though. If you can land at least 1 headshot, the VAPR wins. Even without high-caliber (more on that in a bit) and against the op-mod Maddox, the VAPR will kill faster than the Maddox if you land a single headshot. Maddox also suffers from a range problem. Due to the significant drawbacks of using an op-mod, and the ease of landing at least one headshot on a target, I'm going to award the VAPR the win and rule out the Maddox. As an aside, I'd like to point out that due to the damage numbers and breakpoints, headshots don't matter for the Maddox. Just aim for the body.

So we're down to the Rampart and the VAPR. First off, all else being equal, you must run FMJ on the Rampart-17. Without it the VAPR is simply the better gun. This balances out the cost of rapid fire on the VAPR. Before headshots, this means the rampart will kill armored targets faster. Unarmored targets will die at more or less the same speed, with the VAPR killing just a tad faster.

Now let's talk about headshots against unarmored targets. The Rampart needs high-caliber for headshots to matter. Without it, you'll have a 4 shot kill unless you perfectly hit 3 headshots (unlikely). With HC, the rampart drops from 4 shots to 3 shots with only a single headshot. The VAPR on the other hand, drops from a 5-shot to a 4-shot with only a single headshot, regardless of HC.

Comparing a 4-shot VAPR to a 3-shot Rampart is a wash. Pretty much equal. But the Rampart had to spend a point and the VAPR didn't.

Now if the VAPR wants to equip HC, they can. It doesn't matter for the first headshot, but the second headshot will mean the VAPR is now a 3-shot kill. And putting the Rampart to shame while killing blisteringly fast. But only if you land TWO headshots. That comes down to your confidence level, I guess. But where it matters more is against armored targets. HC has a significant affect on armored targets for the VAPR. The math gets really convoluted here. Basically against an armored target without HC, it's a 6 shot skill normally, reduced to 5 if you can land 2 headshots. With HC, each headshot effectively reducing their shots-to-kill by one, so you could potentially kill them in 3 shots.

Lastly there's the soft stats. The VAPR has better irons and faster reload. ADS is equal. The higher fire rate of the VAPR is more forgiving if you miss a shot, but you'll also run out of ammo faster.

To summarize the comparison:
Rampart requires FMJ and high caliber is HIGHLY recommended, meaning at least 2 perks. Irons are pretty bad, probably warranting a third. High caliber II is availible, giving players more leniency to kill extremely quick. Grip is available to help manage recoil.
VAPR requires rapid fire, meaning only a single perk. Irons are fantastic. High caliber is available to help against armored targets and to give skilled players ultra-fast kill times. Stock is available for more mobility.
Both guns have access to long barrel and fast mags. Suppressors are bad due to fog of war existing so not even worth mentioning.

To me, the winner for a skilled player is the VAPR. The better the player, the bigger the advantage. However the Rampart is still an great gun, and a wise player should recognize his own limitations and play to his strengths. These are both great guns. The Rampart-17 is more lenient with high-caliber headshots, while the VAPR has the potential to go from great gun to best gun if put in the right hands.

Also the HADES is a monster. But that's a story for another time.

Comparing ICR-7 with VAPR, do +52 rpm really make a big difference? ICR has better range, recoil, reload and can cut 0,07 ADS time with quickdraw. Is rapid fire recoil manageable?

[exaltedvanguard]

I'm comparing it to the RF VAPR, which is 100rpm faster, and yes, it makes a difference.

While ICR does have better drop-off range, both are some of the best in class.

Regarding recoil, stat analysis like this has to make the assumption that the player is able to land all shots on the body (with 1 or 2 headshots as noted). Gotta draw the line somewhere. Your TTK is infinite if you never hit the target.

---

Also, I find it hilarious that no one noticed the TTK issues until I pointed it out, and now that I did there's comments on both reddit posts pointing it out. How did no one notice that the supposed TTKs were not matching up at all with gameplay.

In the same vein, I'm really curious about accuracy of the listed RPMs. My in-game experience is still not totally matching up with the numbers right now, and I'm hesitant to blame that on recoil.

[exaltedvanguard]

So. There's some ugly news, but it explains why things just weren't feeling right, and with the new data it aligns much better with how things were feeling in-game.

Server refresh rate appears to be only 20Hz, which is outrageously low. Previous titles ran at 60Hz, which was fast enough that TTK's didn't really need to account for it. Unfortunately at 20Hz, the server is updating once every 50ms. When kill times are 300-500ms, that's going to have a significant effect.

Here's an example to illustrate why this matters:
Your gun kills in 305ms, but the server only updates every 50 ms. You start firing. A 300ms (a number divisible by 50), your target is alive. At 305ms, your target should have died, but they won't actually die until the next update at 350ms. This gives them another 45ms to act.

Put another way, a gun that takes 301ms will kill just as slow as a gun that kills in 350ms.

So with that consideration, the tier list changes significantly. Headshots get really weird and I haven't had a chance to see how everything breaks down yet. For example, killing in 2 shots with the VKM kills TWICE as fast as 3 shots. Because breakpoints.

Considering this new info, consider everything I've said up to this point invalid.

[exaltedvanguard]

True. I oversimplified things.

Unfortunately, the tick rate does have an affect on practical balance when it's this large, because we can assume that the server will treat all player actions prior to being marked dead as valid. If the server is only calculating that every 50ms, then there's the scenario where the 305ms and 345ms gun tie. This will happen 10% (5/50) of the time those guns face off. 10% is huge. Big enough that it warrants accounting for when worried about determining weapon recommendations.

So you are correct that I shouldn't have immediately rounded up, but this has a great enough effect on gameplay that we should account for it.

For example, the titan kills in 370ms and the hades kills in 330ms. That's enough that the Hades should pretty much always win. With a faster tick rate, we can basically say that the Hades will always kill faster than the titan. But with a slow tick rate...

When we start firing, we are T ms through the tick.

At T=0, the hades kills at tick 7, and the titan at tick 8
At T=21, the hades and titan both kill at tick 8.
At T=30, both still kill at tick 8.
At T=31, the hades kills at tick 8 and the titan at tick 9.

From this we can see there is a 10ms window, or 20% of the time, that these weapons are equal. 20% is HUGE.

This changes practical balance considerations because instead of saying, "The HADES kills faster 100% of the time," I can only say, "The HADES kills faster 80% of the time." While going for pure damage it's still the gun of choice, this gives other stats (recoil, etc) a lot more consideration.

Unfortunately the skewing effect of this cannot easily quantified en-mass, and is best done with 1v1 weapon match-ups. That said, rounding (up or down) to the nearest 50ms, has given me a picture that aligns with my subjective impressions of kill times in game. I want to do the analysis properly before rendering further judgement though.

[Blurred Wolf]

Yeah I was gonna say, when you start comparing guns with that close of a TTK, all the rest becomes so much more important. Reality is people often don't land all their shots. I know in past games I've found I'd often prefer slower RPM guns with less BTK even if it means a slightly higher TTK. It just came down to what recoil felt manageable and things like ADS like Mousey said.

[exaltedvanguard]

So after more playtime in game to get a better feel for things as well as a calculation change, I'm actually completely changing my previous opinion. I believe the Maddox OP-mod to be the best-in-class assault rifle, and the stats back it up.

The calculation change come from a better understanding of how the operator mod works. Without, the gun shoots 720 RPM, and with it it shoots at 800 RPM. However with the operator mod it's basically shooting 2 rounds at a time, but with a longer delay between those 2 round bursts. Bullets do 32 damage each. This bursting means that TTK of the op-mod is best represented not by 32damage at 800 RPM, but instead by 64 damage at 400 RPM.

Accounting for this, the op-mod maddox is the fastest killing AR in all scenarios. WITHOUT headshots. This is a BIG caveat. Other guns will kill faster if they land a headshot. It's worth noting (again) that headshots do not matter for the Maddox (regardless of op-mod), so Maddox users should always aim for the body since there is no benefit. It will always take the Maddox the same number of bullets to kill.

I say the Maddox is the best because of its consistency. While headshots will allow the VAPR and R17 to kill slightly faster, the body-shot TTK of the OMM has a significant enough lead over the others' body-shot TTK that it makes up for this. The majority of kills will be from body shots, especially in a game as mobile as BO4, and the difference in center-mass kills is enough to outweigh the losses in headshot advantage.

[wg4f]

Maddox seems to have much different recoil with the op mod. I really don't like it

[blackbarney]

You have optimal loadout package for the Maddox as well?

Thanks for doing this analysis, can’t wait to try it. I like the body shot advantage to it

[blue17echo]

Oct 25, 2018 22:27:25 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

So after more playtime in game to get a better feel for things as well as a calculation change, I'm actually completely changing my previous opinion. I believe the Maddox OP-mod to be the best-in-class assault rifle, and the stats back it up.

The calculation change come from a better understanding of how the operator mod works. Without, the gun shoots 720 RPM, and with it it shoots at 800 RPM. However with the operator mod it's basically shooting 2 rounds at a time, but with a longer delay between those 2 round bursts. Bullets do 32 damage each. This bursting means that TTK of the op-mod is best represented not by 32damage at 800 RPM, but instead by 64 damage at 400 RPM.

Accounting for this, the op-mod maddox is the fastest killing AR in all scenarios. WITHOUT headshots. This is a BIG caveat. Other guns will kill faster if they land a headshot. It's worth noting (again) that headshots do not matter for the Maddox (regardless of op-mod), so Maddox users should always aim for the body since there is no benefit. It will always take the Maddox the same number of bullets to kill.

I say the Maddox is the best because of its consistency. While headshots will allow the VAPR and R17 to kill slightly faster, the body-shot TTK of the OMM has a significant enough lead over the others' body-shot TTK that it makes up for this. The majority of kills will be from body shots, especially in a game as mobile as BO4, and the difference in center-mass kills is enough to outweigh the losses in headshot advantage.

I have a buddy that agrees with you, he adores the Maddox. I personally think the Maddox is the best SMG in the game, but I have a really hard time using it as an AR. The 5 hit range is short enough that I find it to be very inconsistent, and within the 6 hit range it's in the middle of the pack for TTK. With the current nerfs, my tune might change a fair bit, but as a PC player, landing 3 body shots and a headshot with the ICR for a ~300ms kill at basically any range feels more consistent then having to land 5 or 6 shots with the maddox for a ~300-400 ms kill. Granted, I haven't really played with Echo Fire yet, but I just can't imagine that EF competes with things like HC2 VKM or HC2+double tap DMR. The Maddox does handle incredibly well with QD2 and a stock, and the recoil pattern is a "nice" one, unlike the Rampart, but it's definitely not as "nice" as the ICR, or even the VAPR in my opinion.

RE: Recoil on ARS

Note, BO4 has moved away from traditional "random" COD recoil to mostly fixed patterns. The randomness is still much higher than a CSGO, and bullets definitely hit where your crosshair is placed, but you can actually learn recoil patterns and compensate for them. In general, the patterns are like very small CSGO patterns-- they tend to kick in a specific line for the first 10 shots or so, then they hit a vertical "ceiling", then they recoil strongly horizontally back and forth for the rest of the magazine. See: csgoskills.com/academy/spray-patterns/


The ICR has a very COD like recoil, it has seemingly high variance, but is generally mild and mostly upwards. With Grip II it's basically nonexistent. It's not quite MW2 ACR, but it's very close.

The Rampart has very strong recoil on the first couple of shots, and has the most difficult pattern to compensate for, especially in the crucial first few shots. I don't have a ton of experience with it, since the recoil sort of immediately shunted me away. Tap-firing is suprisingly rewarding with this gun, even in the very fast MP.

The KN-57 quietly has the most consistent recoil in the class, though it kicks slightly to the right, it feels like it stays consistent for longer than most other rifles. It has a vaguely 7 shaped pattern for the first 20 rounds or so.

The VAPR has some odd downwards recoil on the first couple shots, then shoots a reverse UMP pattern (a crescent) that is not very concave at all, and then doesn't wiggle very much for the second half of the pattern. This makes the VAPR very well suited to shooting headshots-- if you aim at the head and don't compensate for your first couple shots you're very likely to hit the first 3-4 shots due to the downwards recoil, while other guns will kick you off target if you're aiming for the head.

The Maddox has the most CSGO rifle-like recoil in the class. It recoils strongly upwards for the first portion, then wiggles at the top. The straight upwards recoil is easy to compensate for, but it has enough recoil that you actually need to think about compensating if you're aiming for head and chest shots. Of course, if you're using the Maddox, you should really just be aiming at dicks anyways-- headshots are almost always 100% meaningless with the Maddox.

The Echo Fire version of the Maddox has legitimately high upwards recoil that I can't imagine controlling on the console. It seems to have a fair amount of left/right variance towards the last few shots, but its probably triple to four times the magnitude of a typical AR recoil pattern in BO4. I'll definitely have to try it out and see how it feels in game once I unlock it. It is worth noting that the second shot in a "burst" is very likely to be off target, typically kicking out up and to the right, so you definitely want to be aiming low on your targets to start.

I'm personally pretty baffled that the DMR isn't seeing any changes. I am pretty curious about the nerfs to some of the stronger ARs and LMGs-- would love to see some new damage numbers for the ICR and VAPR. 

[exaltedvanguard]

Oct 26, 2018 17:45:38 GMT -5 wg4f said:

Maddox seems to have much different recoil with the op mod. I really don't like it

Since it's essentially firing 2 bullets each time it fires, recoil is doubled. It takes some getting used to.

Oct 27, 2018 13:03:16 GMT -5 blackbarney said:

You have optimal loadout package for the Maddox as well?

Thanks for doing this analysis, can’t wait to try it. I like the body shot advantage to it

It will depend on playstyle. Run attachments and perks that synergize with how you tend to play. I find an optic quite helpful because the irons aren't well suited to the high amount upward recoil that the op-mod causes.

Oct 31, 2018 7:59:27 GMT -5 blue17echo said:

I have a buddy that agrees with you, he adores the Maddox. I personally think the Maddox is the best SMG in the game, but I have a really hard time using it as an AR. The 5 hit range is short enough that I find it to be very inconsistent, and within the 6 hit range it's in the middle of the pack for TTK. With the current nerfs, my tune might change a fair bit, but as a PC player, landing 3 body shots and a headshot with the ICR for a ~300ms kill at basically any range feels more consistent then having to land 5 or 6 shots with the maddox for a ~300-400 ms kill. Granted, I haven't really played with Echo Fire yet, but I just can't imagine that EF competes with things like HC2 VKM or HC2+double tap DMR. The Maddox does handle incredibly well with QD2 and a stock, and the recoil pattern is a "nice" one, unlike the Rampart, but it's definitely not as "nice" as the ICR, or even the VAPR in my opinion.

My experiences come off consoles, so YMMV. But at range or not, op-mod or not, what keeps the Maddox from dominating is its lack of ability to headshot. Without headshots, the Maddox kills the fastest but every other AR in the game will kill faster if you get headshots.

Or at least, they did. They just nerfed headshots on ICR and the VAPR, so we'll see where things fall when someone does the testing and brings in numbers, but I have a feeling that this was a horrible balancing mistake. ICR has always been the slowest killing AR and will continue to be. That's the trade-off for accuracy and this likely won't change much. The slow get slower.

The VAPR nerf will likely be killer, though. Pre-patch, headshots only did 3 more damage, and 4 body shots would put you at 148 damage. That means a single headshot drops you from a 5-shot to a 4-shot with 151 damage. The patch notes say that the they reduced close range headshot damage, and nerfed high caliber to make it so that you can no longer get a 3 shot kill. Reading between the lines, the first part means headshots without high-caliber no longer drop you to a 4 shot kill (only do 1 more damage?), and high caliber is required for that to happen now.

Assuming this to be true, the VAPR without HC is basically just a slower killing MADDOX. Never aim for the head because it won't make a difference. And then switch to the MADDOX because without headshots it's the fastest killing. With HC and headshots, you're still barely competitive. There's simply no longer any good argument for choosing the VAPR over the Rampart or Maddox.

The VAPR nerf is completely baffling, and just funnels all players into 2 ARs.

And the KN-57 continues to be a poor-man's SMG. Good at very short range but otherwise trash. Why not spitfire?

----

This patch as a whole is baffling, honestly. It seems like they're nerfing AR mobility to try to buff SMGs, but they've completely missed the mark here. The problem with SMGs has nothing to do with ARs being too mobile. The problem is that every AR (except the ICR) kills faster at point blank than SMGs other than the spitfire and saug. Without headshots. And headshots with ARs matter, but make no difference for SMGs.

And funny enough, the Spitfire and Saug are considered by the community to generally be in a good spot, and actually very strong...

Hmmm... Baffling. Absolutely baffling.

Also, why the suppressor nerf? They're already pretty bad in this game due to the fog of war existing. If someone turns and sees you at all, you're pinged on the map. Unless you're the best flanker in history and are always attacking from behind and never get in a gunfight and always kill your target before they can turn around...

----

EDIT:
Some stats have been posted and my fears about the VAPR were confirmed. Headshots without HC no longer matter. It's always a 5-shot kill unless you're a wizard that can land 4 headshots. This is also true of the ICR. Both of these guns should no longer aim for the head. Or more accurately, both of these guns have no reason for existing because the Maddox is better.

With HC, the VAPR is a 4 shot kill and beats the Maddox. Beats standard Maddox easily, and just barely eeks out a win against MOpM. That just barely probably isn't worth it, but we don't even have to worry about that. If we're acting under the assumption you can land one headshot each fight, the Rampart is a better choice. It will kill faster in every scenario, and it's easier to do if you use HC2. Faster and easier? That's a no-brainer. Rampart is superior to VAPR HC.

The VAPR is completely and utterly outclassed by the Maddox and Rampart now. It has no identity.

ICR has the same identity it always has. It's useful for players who absolutely can't manage recoil, but is otherwise the worst in class. While it got the same (significant) nerf that the VAPR did, it's role really hasn't changed. Better players got more mileage out of other guns and that will continue to be true.

The KN-57 continues to be a poor-man's SMG, and there's a better choice for any given situation/play style.

R-17 and Maddox now reign king, and the gulf between the top-tiers and the rest is now bigger than ever.

R-17 is now the uncontested king AR for anyone confident in their ability to proc high-caliber 2.

Maddox is for everyone else and those willing to sacrifice some play-making ability for consistency.

[hattrick66]

Oct 31, 2018 12:19:05 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

Oct 26, 2018 17:45:38 GMT -5 wg4f said:

Maddox seems to have much different recoil with the op mod. I really don't like it

Since it's essentially firing 2 bullets each time it fires, recoil is doubled. It takes some getting used to.

Oct 27, 2018 13:03:16 GMT -5 blackbarney said:

You have optimal loadout package for the Maddox as well?

Thanks for doing this analysis, can’t wait to try it. I like the body shot advantage to it

It will depend on playstyle. Run attachments and perks that synergize with how you tend to play. I find an optic quite helpful because the irons aren't well suited to the high amount upward recoil that the op-mod causes.

Oct 31, 2018 7:59:27 GMT -5 blue17echo said:

I have a buddy that agrees with you, he adores the Maddox. I personally think the Maddox is the best SMG in the game, but I have a really hard time using it as an AR. The 5 hit range is short enough that I find it to be very inconsistent, and within the 6 hit range it's in the middle of the pack for TTK. With the current nerfs, my tune might change a fair bit, but as a PC player, landing 3 body shots and a headshot with the ICR for a ~300ms kill at basically any range feels more consistent then having to land 5 or 6 shots with the maddox for a ~300-400 ms kill. Granted, I haven't really played with Echo Fire yet, but I just can't imagine that EF competes with things like HC2 VKM or HC2+double tap DMR. The Maddox does handle incredibly well with QD2 and a stock, and the recoil pattern is a "nice" one, unlike the Rampart, but it's definitely not as "nice" as the ICR, or even the VAPR in my opinion.

My experiences come off consoles, so YMMV. But at range or not, op-mod or not, what keeps the Maddox from dominating is its lack of ability to headshot. Without headshots, the Maddox kills the fastest but every other AR in the game will kill faster if you get headshots.

Or at least, they did. They just nerfed headshots on ICR and the VAPR, so we'll see where things fall when someone does the testing and brings in numbers, but I have a feeling that this was a horrible balancing mistake. ICR has always been the slowest killing AR and will continue to be. That's the trade-off for accuracy and this likely won't change much. The slow get slower.

The VAPR nerf will likely be killer, though. Pre-patch, headshots only did 3 more damage, and 4 body shots would put you at 148 damage. That means a single headshot drops you from a 5-shot to a 4-shot with 151 damage. The patch notes say that the they reduced close range headshot damage, and nerfed high caliber to make it so that you can no longer get a 3 shot kill. Reading between the lines, the first part means headshots without high-caliber no longer drop you to a 4 shot kill (only do 1 more damage?), and high caliber is required for that to happen now.

Assuming this to be true, the VAPR without HC is basically just a slower killing MADDOX. Never aim for the head because it won't make a difference. And then switch to the MADDOX because without headshots it's the fastest killing. With HC and headshots, you're still barely competitive. There's simply no longer any good argument for choosing the VAPR over the Rampart or Maddox.

The VAPR nerf is completely baffling, and just funnels all players into 2 ARs.

And the KN-57 continues to be a poor-man's SMG. Good at very short range but otherwise trash. Why not spitfire?

----

This patch as a whole is baffling, honestly. It seems like they're nerfing AR mobility to try to buff SMGs, but they've completely missed the mark here. The problem with SMGs has nothing to do with ARs being too mobile. The problem is that every AR (except the ICR) kills faster at point blank than SMGs other than the spitfire and saug. Without headshots. And headshots with ARs matter, but make no difference for SMGs.

And funny enough, the Spitfire and Saug are considered by the community to generally be in a good spot, and actually very strong...

Hmmm... Baffling. Absolutely baffling.

Also, why the suppressor nerf? They're already pretty bad in this game due to the fog of war existing. If someone turns and sees you at all, you're pinged on the map. Unless you're the best flanker in history and are always attacking from behind and never get in a gunfight and always kill your target before they can turn around...

----

EDIT:
Some stats have been posted and my fears about the VAPR were confirmed. Headshots without HC no longer matter. It's always a 5-shot kill unless you're a wizard that can land 4 headshots. This is also true of the ICR. Both of these guns should no longer aim for the head. Or more accurately, both of these guns have no reason for existing because the Maddox is better.

With HC, the VAPR is a 4 shot kill and beats the Maddox. Beats standard Maddox easily, and just barely eeks out a win against MOpM. That just barely probably isn't worth it, but we don't even have to worry about that. If we're acting under the assumption you can land one headshot each fight, the Rampart is a better choice. It will kill faster in every scenario, and it's easier to do if you use HC2. Faster and easier? That's a no-brainer. Rampart is superior to VAPR HC.

The VAPR is completely and utterly outclassed by the Maddox and Rampart now. It has no identity.

ICR has the same identity it always has. It's useful for players who absolutely can't manage recoil, but is otherwise the worst in class. While it got the same (significant) nerf that the VAPR did, it's role really hasn't changed. Better players got more mileage out of other guns and that will continue to be true.

The KN-57 continues to be a poor-man's SMG, and there's a better choice for any given situation/play style.

R-17 and Maddox now reign king, and the gulf between the top-tiers and the rest is now bigger than ever.

R-17 is now the uncontested king AR for anyone confident in their ability to proc high-caliber 2.

Maddox is for everyone else and those willing to sacrifice some play-making ability for consistency.

Vapr: high fire rate (relatively speaking) AR with good range and suppressor? Only other AR that can use a suppressor is the KN, and I agree, it's just a poor man's SMG. I think that's the VAPR identity. Just try and keep it at mid range.

Also, it can have stock and RF; stock COULD help one out strafe a r-17 user, and if you do happen to get into a gun fight with a Maddox user and you're in the range where the Maddox drops to 6 BTK, you should win that fight as the VAPR kills quicker after 18m than the Maddox. And, by my calculations, a VAPR with RF kills quicker than a R-17 and is more accurate (TTK of .344 vs .348) -- assuming just body shots. Of course, HC on the r-17 could change that.

[blue17echo]

While the KN is good up close, I do think that it's way more than a glorified SMG. It's still very consistent at longer ranges, even with the slow fire rate its light and consistent recoil is very good at long ranges, where it does have a slow TTK, but can land shots reliably. I think the KN and the ICR are both very much jack of all trades guns. You'll never be at a range where you can't take a fight, but you're also never at a range where you'll dominate every fight. The ICR is stronger at mid to long range, while the KN is better up close. The KN also gets hybrid mags, which are a really great quality of life attachments.

The Rampart is, of course, the high-recoil high-damage rifle. If you can reliably proc HC2 its very good, but the total lack of mobility attachments brings it more in line with a LMG style of play (and then really the LMGs still dominate it-- the VKM is still a 2 shot kill with HC2 with near 0 recoil). Essentially, if I'm running the Rampart, I'm wishing I had the VKM or the Auger the entire time.

Don't forget! The Auger still kills in a single double tap burst with HC2, as long as you hit one of the two shots to the upper chest or head. Not both. Just one of the two.

The Maddox struggles to land shots at anything more SMG ranges. Even if you're compensating for recoil, the pattern is inconsistent enough (without EF) that you need to land a very large part of your opening salvo to do well with it.

Oddly, the Echo Fire mod removes the "wiggling" at the end of the recoil period. With Echo Fire, the Maddox has incredibly high, but incredibly consistent recoil.

The VAPR does have an interesting niche in HC, where it can run thermal/stockII/long barrel and be incredibly effective and mobile in long range battles. The ICR is probably better since you can just run like optic/quickdraw and run 5 perks. And for what it's worth, the Rampart and Maddox are both pretty much utter trash in HC, since the Maddox has a very short 1sk range and the Rampart's damage advantage is nullified. 

[Ironforce92]

Is worth switching the ICR with ABR o SWORDFISH on console? I don't want to run fancy operator mods or wild cards and quick draw with FMJ have been strong attachments for me so far considering that I didn't need optics.

[banana]

Nov 2, 2018 10:07:21 GMT -5 Ironforce92 said:

Is worth switching the ICR with ABR o SWORDFISH on console? I don't want to run fancy operator mods or wild cards and quick draw with FMJ have been strong attachments for me so far considering that I didn't need optics.

Without operator mods the ABR is still nasty

[illram]

Yeah. Maybe my favorite Blackout weapon too.

[exaltedvanguard]

Nov 1, 2018 12:45:12 GMT -5 hattrick66 said:

Vapr: high fire rate (relatively speaking) AR with good range and suppressor? Only other AR that can use a suppressor is the KN, and I agree, it's just a poor man's SMG. I think that's the VAPR identity. Just try and keep it at mid range.

Also, it can have stock and RF; stock COULD help one out strafe a r-17 user, and if you do happen to get into a gun fight with a Maddox user and you're in the range where the Maddox drops to 6 BTK, you should win that fight as the VAPR kills quicker after 18m than the Maddox. And, by my calculations, a VAPR with RF kills quicker than a R-17 and is more accurate (TTK of .344 vs .348) -- assuming just body shots. Of course, HC on the r-17 could change that.

Suppressors are bad outside of FFA. They're nigh-useless in team games. So maybe it has a niche there I guess. But the vast majority of players are playing team-based game modes.

All calculations of all weapons are done assuming RF is equipped when possible.

Stock certainly has value, but along the same lines as before, all calculations are done assuming the player can land all shots on the body (and, presumably, the enemy shooting back can do the same). To put it bluntly, players who can't reliably hit body shots the majority of the time should not be at all concerned with this discussion. The differences in kill times are not relevant to these players. They are not large enough to make a difference. If anyone reading this is the type of player that picks up an ICR off a body and isn't shocked by how dreadfully long it takes to kill someone, then you're probably not performing at a level where you need to concern yourself with this. Pick whatever gun you like the most and be happy with it. This entire thread is nit-picking. Whatever the case, if we start trying to account for mobility causing missed shots (or vice, versa), it basically makes these types of comparisons impossible. This is a large part of why I'm only looking at ARs and not considering any tactical rifles in this discussion. So I have no choice but to relegate things like stock to "soft" stats. Useful in tie-breakers.

Yes, VAPR beats Maddox within a certain range window. I missed that. However I don't feel that it's enough to justify the VAPR's existence. And beating Maddox within a certain range window only applies to regular Maddox. MOpM beats VAPR at every range, every time.

.004 is within measurement error since firerates were determined by frame counting. Even if it weren't, 4ms is small enough to be negligible. So it's a tie. The VAPR also kills faster at range, too, but it's very close. In my original post in this thread, my decision between these two guns was determined by headshot potential. That much is still true. The only difference is that headshots on the VAPR were significantly nerfed. Thus the R-17 is now the better gun.

Nov 1, 2018 22:01:04 GMT -5 blue17echo said:

While the KN is good up close, I do think that it's way more than a glorified SMG. It's still very consistent at longer ranges, even with the slow fire rate its light and consistent recoil is very good at long ranges, where it does have a slow TTK, but can land shots reliably.

The issue with the KN-57 is that at close range it just BARELY eeks out a win against the Maddox, ties MOpM, and while there's a margin between it and the R-17/VAPR up close, it's not a huge one. So it does have a SLIGHT advantage up close. However it falls off faster and harder than all of these guns at both mid and long range. That's a huge loss for such a small benefit. If you're willing to give up both your mid and long game for a tiny advantage up close, you're simply looking at the wrong class of weapons. You'd be much better served by running an SMG and getting mobility and an actual meaningful advantage up close. And if that's not a tradeoff you're willing to make, then you shouldn't be choosing the KN-57.

The Rampart is, of course, the high-recoil high-damage rifle. If you can reliably proc HC2 its very good, but the total lack of mobility attachments brings it more in line with a LMG style of play (and then really the LMGs still dominate it-- the VKM is still a 2 shot kill with HC2 with near 0 recoil). Essentially, if I'm running the Rampart, I'm wishing I had the VKM or the Auger the entire time.

Don't forget! The Auger still kills in a single double tap burst with HC2, as long as you hit one of the two shots to the upper chest or head. Not both. Just one of the two.

I'm restricting my direct comparisons by weapon class. Your comparisons might or might not be accurate, but it's outside the scope of what I'm doing. I'm not trying to find the best gun in the entire game, just the best AR.

The Maddox struggles to land shots at anything more SMG ranges. Even if you're compensating for recoil, the pattern is inconsistent enough (without EF) that you need to land a very large part of your opening salvo to do well with it.

Oddly, the Echo Fire mod removes the "wiggling" at the end of the recoil period. With Echo Fire, the Maddox has incredibly high, but incredibly consistent recoil.

I've not had any problems managing the recoil on the Maddox, op mod or not. :shrug:

I guess generally if I'm holding the trigger long enough for the wiggling to be an issue, I'm close enough to the target that it doesn't matter. And if you're at range, some trigger discipline goes a long way.

The VAPR does have an interesting niche in HC, where it can run thermal/stockII/long barrel and be incredibly effective and mobile in long range battles. The ICR is probably better since you can just run like optic/quickdraw and run 5 perks. And for what it's worth, the Rampart and Maddox are both pretty much utter trash in HC, since the Maddox has a very short 1sk range and the Rampart's damage advantage is nullified. 

Yep, this entire discussion is aimed at core gameplay. Hardcore is it's own beast.

[blackbarney]

Great job, man. I’m thinking best SMG is Saug, but I’d really like to know what the best gun in the game is.

Right now I’m using Titan with FMJ 2, QuickDraw and Stock. It’s the most amazing anti killstreak thing there is. Way better than rockets. Great for suppressive fire in objective games too. Love it

But I’d love to know what the best gun is if ever you feel up to it. I can’t do headshots to save my life (literally, lol)

[Ironforce92]

I have never been a very aggressive player because I focus on support and anti streaks but after the balance update I consistently score 2.0 k/d with instant ADS gung ho MX9 thanks to tight maps. Lots of shield users aren't a problem with FMJ, fast mags are super efficient and with equipment charge Crash I almost get full loops of care packages.

[hattrick66]

Nov 1, 2018 22:01:04 GMT -5 blue17echo said:

While the KN is good up close, I do think that it's way more than a glorified SMG. It's still very consistent at longer ranges, even with the slow fire rate its light and consistent recoil is very good at long ranges, where it does have a slow TTK, but can land shots reliably. I think the KN and the ICR are both very much jack of all trades guns. You'll never be at a range where you can't take a fight, but you're also never at a range where you'll dominate every fight. The ICR is stronger at mid to long range, while the KN is better up close. The KN also gets hybrid mags, which are a really great quality of life attachments.

The Rampart is, of course, the high-recoil high-damage rifle. If you can reliably proc HC2 its very good, but the total lack of mobility attachments brings it more in line with a LMG style of play (and then really the LMGs still dominate it-- the VKM is still a 2 shot kill with HC2 with near 0 recoil). Essentially, if I'm running the Rampart, I'm wishing I had the VKM or the Auger the entire time.

Don't forget! The Auger still kills in a single double tap burst with HC2, as long as you hit one of the two shots to the upper chest or head. Not both. Just one of the two.

The Maddox struggles to land shots at anything more SMG ranges. Even if you're compensating for recoil, the pattern is inconsistent enough (without EF) that you need to land a very large part of your opening salvo to do well with it.

Oddly, the Echo Fire mod removes the "wiggling" at the end of the recoil period. With Echo Fire, the Maddox has incredibly high, but incredibly consistent recoil.

The VAPR does have an interesting niche in HC, where it can run thermal/stockII/long barrel and be incredibly effective and mobile in long range battles. The ICR is probably better since you can just run like optic/quickdraw and run 5 perks. And for what it's worth, the Rampart and Maddox are both pretty much utter trash in HC, since the Maddox has a very short 1sk range and the Rampart's damage advantage is nullified. 

I actually agree with that KN assessment, the more I use it. And funny enough, slap RF and grip on it, and it almost fires as fast as the ICR, same bullets to kill at range, and not much more recoil at range. All will the ability to use more attachments and a 4 BTK range up close.

Rampart not bad, but not good for rushing. if you want to hang back, sure. I could be wrong, but I think it has a slower sprint out time than the other ARs. And the lack of attachments it has is annoying. I like to use it as an LMG.

I think the Maddox EF mod makes it worse. Not a fan.

[hattrick66]

Nov 3, 2018 13:54:31 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

Nov 1, 2018 12:45:12 GMT -5 hattrick66 said:

Vapr: high fire rate (relatively speaking) AR with good range and suppressor? Only other AR that can use a suppressor is the KN, and I agree, it's just a poor man's SMG. I think that's the VAPR identity. Just try and keep it at mid range.

Also, it can have stock and RF; stock COULD help one out strafe a r-17 user, and if you do happen to get into a gun fight with a Maddox user and you're in the range where the Maddox drops to 6 BTK, you should win that fight as the VAPR kills quicker after 18m than the Maddox. And, by my calculations, a VAPR with RF kills quicker than a R-17 and is more accurate (TTK of .344 vs .348) -- assuming just body shots. Of course, HC on the r-17 could change that.

Suppressors are bad outside of FFA. They're nigh-useless in team games. So maybe it has a niche there I guess. But the vast majority of players are playing team-based game modes.

All calculations of all weapons are done assuming RF is equipped when possible.

Stock certainly has value, but along the same lines as before, all calculations are done assuming the player can land all shots on the body (and, presumably, the enemy shooting back can do the same). To put it bluntly, players who can't reliably hit body shots the majority of the time should not be at all concerned with this discussion. The differences in kill times are not relevant to these players. They are not large enough to make a difference. If anyone reading this is the type of player that picks up an ICR off a body and isn't shocked by how dreadfully long it takes to kill someone, then you're probably not performing at a level where you need to concern yourself with this. Pick whatever gun you like the most and be happy with it. This entire thread is nit-picking. Whatever the case, if we start trying to account for mobility causing missed shots (or vice, versa), it basically makes these types of comparisons impossible. This is a large part of why I'm only looking at ARs and not considering any tactical rifles in this discussion. So I have no choice but to relegate things like stock to "soft" stats. Useful in tie-breakers.

Yes, VAPR beats Maddox within a certain range window. I missed that. However I don't feel that it's enough to justify the VAPR's existence. And beating Maddox within a certain range window only applies to regular Maddox. MOpM beats VAPR at every range, every time.

.004 is within measurement error since firerates were determined by frame counting. Even if it weren't, 4ms is small enough to be negligible. So it's a tie. The VAPR also kills faster at range, too, but it's very close. In my original post in this thread, my decision between these two guns was determined by headshot potential. That much is still true. The only difference is that headshots on the VAPR were significantly nerfed. Thus the R-17 is now the better gun.

Nov 1, 2018 22:01:04 GMT -5 blue17echo said:

While the KN is good up close, I do think that it's way more than a glorified SMG. It's still very consistent at longer ranges, even with the slow fire rate its light and consistent recoil is very good at long ranges, where it does have a slow TTK, but can land shots reliably.

The issue with the KN-57 is that at close range it just BARELY eeks out a win against the Maddox, ties MOpM, and while there's a margin between it and the R-17/VAPR up close, it's not a huge one. So it does have a SLIGHT advantage up close. However it falls off faster and harder than all of these guns at both mid and long range. That's a huge loss for such a small benefit. If you're willing to give up both your mid and long game for a tiny advantage up close, you're simply looking at the wrong class of weapons. You'd be much better served by running an SMG and getting mobility and an actual meaningful advantage up close. And if that's not a tradeoff you're willing to make, then you shouldn't be choosing the KN-57.

The Rampart is, of course, the high-recoil high-damage rifle. If you can reliably proc HC2 its very good, but the total lack of mobility attachments brings it more in line with a LMG style of play (and then really the LMGs still dominate it-- the VKM is still a 2 shot kill with HC2 with near 0 recoil). Essentially, if I'm running the Rampart, I'm wishing I had the VKM or the Auger the entire time.

Don't forget! The Auger still kills in a single double tap burst with HC2, as long as you hit one of the two shots to the upper chest or head. Not both. Just one of the two.

I'm restricting my direct comparisons by weapon class. Your comparisons might or might not be accurate, but it's outside the scope of what I'm doing. I'm not trying to find the best gun in the entire game, just the best AR.

The Maddox struggles to land shots at anything more SMG ranges. Even if you're compensating for recoil, the pattern is inconsistent enough (without EF) that you need to land a very large part of your opening salvo to do well with it.

Oddly, the Echo Fire mod removes the "wiggling" at the end of the recoil period. With Echo Fire, the Maddox has incredibly high, but incredibly consistent recoil.

I've not had any problems managing the recoil on the Maddox, op mod or not. :shrug:

I guess generally if I'm holding the trigger long enough for the wiggling to be an issue, I'm close enough to the target that it doesn't matter. And if you're at range, some trigger discipline goes a long way.

The VAPR does have an interesting niche in HC, where it can run thermal/stockII/long barrel and be incredibly effective and mobile in long range battles. The ICR is probably better since you can just run like optic/quickdraw and run 5 perks. And for what it's worth, the Rampart and Maddox are both pretty much utter trash in HC, since the Maddox has a very short 1sk range and the Rampart's damage advantage is nullified. 

Yep, this entire discussion is aimed at core gameplay. Hardcore is it's own beast.

Disagree about the suppressors. I play a lot of TDM, and I can go lone wolf and flank around and easily take out two people, depending on the map, because the 2nd one doesn't notice me. Third guy may get me, but in TDM, I'll take a 2 for 1 all day. But yeah, I guess it depends on which mode you play the most.

Sure, stock's a preference, but when I strafe ADS around corners, I don't even have to factor in ADS time, and when I strafe side to side in gun fights, and the other guy can't because he's using an R-17, that gives me an advantage. But yeah, if he lands his shots on me and has HC, I'm probably screwed. But that's where flanking with the VAPR suppressed comes into play. Not a head to head fight, if possible. It's give and take. Again, too many situations and variables. I'm sure we could continue to dissect this for days....

And yeah, I'd probably take the Maddox over the VAPR regardless. Makes sense. last AR unlocked. I guess it should out class the VAPR, which it does, but not outside of ~20m. Still feel most, if not all guns, still have a role.

[KenDirson]

Yowza it's been a long time since I've been here, but with the first CoD I've gotten into since BO2, here I am.

My 2¢ (about eight prestiges in):

The Rampart is great on paper but is just uncomfortable to use. The recoil pattern is really Foxtroted, with the [first shot recoil kicking way too hard to the right] (https://youtube.com/watch?v=f59iggqguCo&t=3m57s). Combine that with how punishing it is to miss a single bullet due to rate of fire, plus the lack of QD and stock, and the Rampart just feels nowhere near as good in practice as the numbers say it should be, at least to me.

The VAPR, on the other hand, is up there with the Maddox for me. A few things go into this, mostly handling. The recoil magnitude is consistently very mild, making it easily controllable (at least on mouse and keyboard). It takes a stock, which is enormous (as the only real way to make people miss on PC is unpredictable ADAD strafing a la Overwatch). IIRC, it has the fastest sprint out time of the ARs, along with a faster base movespeed (97.5% instead of 95% or something), which are great. And the TTK is more than competitive with RF and HC, even if it's not the absolute best on paper. Suppressor is cool due to reducing sound cues, but I can't justify giving up stock, HC, or RF. As is, I want long barrel and fast mags, but can't squeeze them in there.

Maddox is great, but has a low ceiling due to headshots. Quickdraw 2 is phenomenal, and taking a stock is as usual a must. Recoil pattern gets kinda wacky sideways after the initial upwards pull, though like many important guns in CSGO, and unlike CSGO, I haven't gotten the left/right timings down. I can imagine this would be absurdly difficult on console, but the pro scene seems to be all over the Maddox anyways and they're on PS4. Maybe it's the ban of high cal and rapid fire in competitive.

Side note: a fun setup that I've never seen anyone else use on the Maddox is quickdraw 2 with holo, after the latest patch. It gets the recoil reduction from the holo but the zoom (or lack thereof) of the irons/elo because of quickdraw 2. Basically, you trade a clean sight picture for reduced recoil. (Wonder how it's implemented, between centerspeed or viewkick or something - someone more familiar with the old Varix recoil reduction might know better.)

The ICR just kills too slow, even with no flinch or recoil, and doesn't take a stock. The KN has nice attachments but just kinda sucks.

The LMGs are the real winners this year anyways - there's a reason it's the only class to be nerfed across the board. Seems 3arc, really wants to make them viable compared to the LMGs of the good old days (CoD4 through BO2), so handling like movement, ADS, and sprint out are comparable to ARs, and they have reduced flinch baked in, which is enormous. Titan is a no dropoff laser, Hades Cross Bar is the king of handling and absolutely shreds, and the VKM was unreal and the best gun in the game before it got nerfed, even if seemingly nobody used it.

[blackbarney]

Yeah I’m all about the Titan with FMJ2, QuickDraw and DualZoom. I shred killstreaks before Support Squad gets dropped. It’s a joy.

[KenDirson]

Nov 3, 2018 13:54:31 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

Stock certainly has value, but along the same lines as before, all calculations are done assuming the player can land all shots on the body (and, presumably, the enemy shooting back can do the same). To put it bluntly, players who can't reliably hit body shots the majority of the time should not be at all concerned with this discussion. The differences in kill times are not relevant to these players. They are not large enough to make a difference. If anyone reading this is the type of player that picks up an ICR off a body and isn't shocked by how dreadfully long it takes to kill someone, then you're probably not performing at a level where you need to concern yourself with this. Pick whatever gun you like the most and be happy with it. This entire thread is nit-picking. Whatever the case, if we start trying to account for mobility causing missed shots (or vice, versa), it basically makes these types of comparisons impossible. This is a large part of why I'm only looking at ARs and not considering any tactical rifles in this discussion. So I have no choice but to relegate things like stock to "soft" stats. Useful in tie-breakers.

As much as I love theorycrafting about exclusively hard numbers, practicality has to come into play at some point. Weapons like the Rampart are literally balanced around handling factors, and throwing them out the window obviously makes them optimal relative to their peers. But handling matters, or else we'd all be running around with nothing but SDMs and Paladins.

This especially matters this time around, as movement speed is fast and TTKs are slow. Add human reaction time and ye olde flinch, and you can't guarantee every shot hits. While this is obviously a board dedicated to stats and there's definitely value in discussing how good weapons are assuming perfect accuracy, it's not the end all be all of balance, even from a hard stats perspective (as there's a hard effect on strafe speed with stock, for example, with practical gameplay considerations).