Gamma
True Bro
Posts: 127
|
Post by Gamma on Sept 24, 2020 10:35:20 GMT -5
XSX will support Dolby Atmos for headphones PS5 will have its own proprietary 3D audio using the new "Tempest Engine"
Both will involve gamers attaching stereo headphones into the headphone jack on the controller
Does this spell the end of traditional dolby headphone decoders like the mixamp?
Thoughts?
|
|
exaltedvanguard
True Bro
Hey look... uh... Over... uh... THERE!
Posts: 10,226
|
Post by exaltedvanguard on Sept 25, 2020 20:06:05 GMT -5
Headphones have two drivers. You can use whatever fancy codec you want, but it's still just two speakers.
Back in the day, pumping 5.1 to the headset sometimes resulted in better stereo mixing of directional sound than the native stereo output of the game produced.
Modern games (at least AAA titles like CoD) do a much better job with their stereo mixing, to the point that sending "surround sound" to the headphones often has no benefit, and may actually muddy things instead.
If you're curious, the major evolution in game sound design has been the introduction of delay. In an old game an explosion on your right hits both ears at the same time, but is obviously louder in the right. Games now replicate real life where in addition to being louder, the sound hits your right ear a millisecond or two before the left. Your brain naturally processes this time difference into directionality, just like it does for "real" sounds.
So it's more or less a gimmick. There's some scenarios you can get benefit, but it generally won't apply to pretty most games that you'd be prioritizing sound design as a player.
If you want fantastic sound, get a pair of high-quality earbuds, plug em into your controller, and use stereo out. And by high quality, I mean something like klipsch or sennheiser, not trash by dre or apple.
Or buy a proper home theater system 😁
---
What I really want is for them to come out with a wireless chat mic for xbox. They had them on the 360 in 2005 and everyone had one. Here we are in 2020 and we still don't have a basic wireless mic? Seriously? Apparently Microsoft thinks that someone into gaming couldn't possibly have a home theater system and want to use it?
The X88 finally came out after 3 years and based off reviews is basically unusably bad garbage. Where's the first-party mic that basically every single XBL player bought? It was one of the best features of the 360. I'm guessing they gave Astro/TB exclusive rights and neither of them felt like making a chat headset because it would cut into their overpriced stereo headset market.
|
|
|
Post by illram on Sept 26, 2020 2:52:27 GMT -5
Short answer: No, there will be a place for hardware solutions, if you are a real hardcore audio nerd, because generic virtual surround algorithms will never match custom/calibrated ones which are becoming more popular with Creative's Super X-Fi brand.
Long answer: Virtual surround works. It's real and definitely not a gimmick. (Google HRTF or listen to virtual barbershop on youtube.)
Whether external solutions stick around depends on whether game engines prioritize quality object based audio, but most seem content to not bother or just implement some crappy Atmos for headphone solution and call it a day. If they ever do, then yeah external solutions will be moot. But I am skeptical they ever will--they had this tech 20 years ago and basically ditched it. COD does not currently have object based audio like BF or some other games so its stereo mixed audio is just that--stereo. Left/right audio. No front, no rear. It does not compete with what you can get with surround speakers or a quality virtual surround headphone algorithm.
They did add a Dolby Atmos mix to MW, but it sucks. I fully expect Cold War to be no different since they are just recycling the engine again. Dolby Atmos for headphones on the Xbox and PC is entirely beholden to how well the game uses it. Overwatch has a great implementation for example. Borderlands 3 was OK. (You can tell if Atmos is "working" if you can hear not only rear/front cues but height cues.) MW's Atmos mix is terrible, though. Upstairs? Downstairs? Behind you? Who knows! I've tried it extensively and you only guarantee a consistent virtual surround quality experience with external solutions, so there should still be a market unless the PS5 implementation is amazing. I doubt it will be since it is relying on a generic algorithm, i.e. it is not calibrated to your ear. The best I have tried is Creative's Super X-Fi on PC which tries to match its HRTF to your ear shape by using pictures of your ears. It is really amazing once you hear it, I recommend it for any PC game and I hope they extend it to dolby atmos home theater (i.e. so it simulates atmos speakers in a room) decoding. When I first heard it I took my headphones off thinking I left my speakers on. But, ultimately all of these solutions are limited to decoding up to 7.1, which is not object based, and so like I said if a game truly does a quality object based audio solution then that will be the best choice, presuming its HRTF algorithm is not too far off for your ears. (But few games actually have an object based engine.)
Myself, I am waiting for my Kickstarter delivery of the Smyth Realiser A16 which basically simulates an actual Atmos room of speakers (or any speakers you want in any arrangement) in your headphones, after you use in ear microphones to calibrate its algorithm to match your ears and your headphones. The promised land would really be if each game had its own object based audio AND calibrated itself to your ears with mics or pictures or whatever. Not holding my breath for that anytime soon though.
|
|
exaltedvanguard
True Bro
Hey look... uh... Over... uh... THERE!
Posts: 10,226
|
Post by exaltedvanguard on Sept 26, 2020 6:42:57 GMT -5
MW uses the windows spatial sound API (at least on PC and Xbox, no idea about PS4), which uses sound objects that are translated into the hardware device output (whether that's 8 speakers or 2) using HRTF.
Edit: Realized that the way I worded things in previous post may have been a bit confusing if not familiar with the functionality of these codecs. Allow me to clarify:
Sending a 5.1 or Atmos signal to an external mixer results in the mixer interpreting it and downmixing to a stereo signal that it's then passed to the speakers.
In a worst case scenario, some mixers will try to apply a fake HRTF to a 5.1 or 7.1 signal. Sometimes this works, but other times it just trashes sound quality. It's usually tuned to a specific game and only works for that one game. Even without this nonsense, you're still transforming the audio a second (unnecessary) time by downmixing 5.1/7.1 to stereo rather that just using native stereo.
If you're sending an atmos signal to the mixer, the mixer is creating a stereo signal from the sound objects the exact same way the OS would have. It may have some slightly different parameters about speaker position. So it could sound slightly better or worse to you based on the width of your ears, but we're talking the most minor of nitpicks here. If you had a mixer that you could input the width of your head into, that'd be a different story, but for everything else is a random crapshoot. Realistically speaking you won't hear any difference.
So with the exception of some very high end mixers (which may not even exist?), you're better off saving the money and just outputting a stereo signal from the OS.
What I really failed to specify I'm the previous post (my bad) is that selecting windows sonic "for headphones" or dolby atmos "for headphones" is a stereo signal. The OS is creating the stereo output from the sound objects and sending that signal to the device.
Taking it a step further, many games will do HRTF in software if you didn't select a sonic/atmos output at the OS level. If you set the output to basic ass 2-channel PCM for these titles, you'll still get all the benefits of sound objects since the game engine is taking the sound objects and making a PCM stereo stream from them to satisfy the OS. But implementation is of course hit-and-miss, so it's not ideal. And you're once again just trading one decoder for another so one may sound better or worse than the other.
TL;DR: Most headphone sound mixers are still a waste of time if you're after audio quality. They continue to be a marketing gimmick. Have been for years. There's certainly reasons to them to exist, but audio codecs are not the reason.
|
|
|
Post by illram on Sept 26, 2020 13:31:21 GMT -5
I highly highly recommend you give some of these DSP's another try in MW as the proof is in the pudding. They really work and they are superior to just using a normal 2 channel stereo signal (by that I mean the source is 2 channel not the end result). Try them with over ear headphones, not ear buds, as ear buds usually don't have a good soundstage for these things.
Every virtual surround device sends out a stereo signal to your headphones. They all rely on Windows making the game send a multi-channel (7.1 or 5.1) speaker feed, i.e. picking the multi-channel speaker option in the sound properties settings. Not using Windows Spatial sound or Atmos. That's not worst case, that is how all of them work. The trick is how good the digital signal processing (DSP) is which convolves that multi-channel into a good binaural stereo signal. I.e., mimicking HRTF you would get from a "normal" sound field without headphones.
Some are bad at that, some are good at that. I have tried almost all of them. There is even free software you can download on your PC that uses Equalizer APO to mimic all of these DSP's (HeSuVi) with varying levels of success. Atmos for Headphones supposedly will take a 7.1 channel mix and do its own binaural rendition of that, i.e. it can work with a multi-channel non Atmos feed (like Dolby Headphone) but I don't find it very convincing. Some hardware even adds head tracking to add to the illusion (e.g. Mobius, which uses Waves Nx) but I find that unnecessary for games and more useful for stuff like movies.
I would definitely never try and pipe Windows Sonic or Atmos into any of the multi-channel HRTF DSP's, as that will definitely sound terrible, as you're just layering two VSS's on top of each other. The Smyth Realiser is the only product that can do that but it is using a variation of the above DSP's, i.e. it is relying on Windows sending the lossless Dolby Atmos for Home Theater Speaker feed, which it then applies its calibrated HRTF to for you, not the Atmos for Headphones convolution.
|
|
exaltedvanguard
True Bro
Hey look... uh... Over... uh... THERE!
Posts: 10,226
|
Post by exaltedvanguard on Sept 27, 2020 7:15:29 GMT -5
Basically boils down to the following options: 1) Game engine takes its internal "sound objects" and exports them to OS as either windows sonic objects or dolby atmos objects. Then OS either uses the relevant algorithm to convert that to best for for speaker setup (in the case of headphones, a stereo signal) using HRTF methods. Or it passes it on to mixer, which uses the same algorithm to convert to stereo. Mixer is pointless (for sound quality) in this case, as it does nothing the OS doesn't. 2) OS requests basic stereo from game. Modern AAA short game engine converts internal sound objects to stereo signal using HRTF methods. CoD uses windows spatial audio (windows sonic) API. Borderlands uses atmos. Battlefield has an in house EA solution. Etc. Stereo signal is passed from game to OS to mixer. Mixer is once again pointless. 3) OS requests stereo signal from game. Indie or older game does not have HRTF processing in-engine. Sends basic stereo to OS, which is passed to mixer. Mixer still does nothing. 4) OS requests 5.1 PCM from game. Game engine converts internal sound objects to 6 channels (with or without HRTF). 6 channels are sent to OS. 6 channels are passed to mixer. Mixer does basic downmixing to stereo. It merges left front/rear channels, does the same with right. It splits center/sub 50/50 to create 2 channel stereo. We've introduced a bunch of noise and probably muddied the sound. Very likely we've damaged sound quality. Sending stereo from the start would have probably been better. 5) Same beginning as 4. Mixer gets 6 channels. We now use some propriety HRTF algorithm to simulate the 6 speakers as sound objects and create "virtual surround". This is where you and I have different opinions (and that's okay!) on the efficacy of this sound stage simulation. For me, the virtual speakers tend to move around. Perhaps you're right and this has gotten better since I last tried it. It's been a long time.
So breaking it down: 1&2 are more or less equivalent. 3 is inferior to 2, but you can't pick which you get. 4 is damaging to the sound and bad. 1&2 skip the extra simulation required by 5.
So choosing 1 is almost always your best option.
The only time 5 might be superior is when playing an older title with no HRTF functionality built in engine and no support for atmos/windows sonic. In this case, you can only get basic stereo, or simulate the surround speakers. I always chose consistent stereo over simulated speakers that moved around on me, but this may have gotten better nowadays. I've got no issue saying I may be wrong.
That said, the need to soundwhore in that particular subset of games is questionable...
So my answer remains the same. Fancy headphone mixers are a waste of money if you're just looking for purported sound quality gains. They certainly have other functionality benefits, but the fact they advertise a bunch of fancy codecs on them is mostly a marketing gimmick.
|
|
Gamma
True Bro
Posts: 127
|
Post by Gamma on Sept 28, 2020 4:23:27 GMT -5
Okay so, I think I might be getting confused, particularly with Exalted's responses So my current setup is sennheiser HD598 connected to Astro mixamp via optical to console So I think what you're saying is that games need to be optimised well with 3D audio in mind in order for the sound to be impressive? And in many cases you would opt for regular 5.1 dolby headphone virtual surround over the newer Atmos for headphones? Also, Sony are wanting to create personal HRTF profiles for each individual player by having them send pictures of their ears. Alternatively there will be a rudimental calibration tool on the console, and I believe the PS5 is to launch with 3 pre-set HRTF profiles to choose from. As an aside, I had always assumed that DSP devices for dolby headphone 5.1 would have all operated in the same exact way, the only differences being the quality of the DAC/amp? Because I thought it was just a proprietary algorithm being used to decode a 5.1 signal to achieve an HRTF effect through headphones. For example, the Astro Mixamp would operate in an identical fashion to the Creative X7, but the actual sound quality of the X7 would be superior because of the better quality dac/amp? Or do you just mean certain DSPs are superior because they have the potential for calibration to align to an individual's ear?
|
|
tooros
True Bro
Pony Stark
Posts: 1,306
|
Post by tooros on Sept 28, 2020 6:35:16 GMT -5
Hey All, Long time.....
Anyway - I recently stated looking into this myself as the PS5 and (I think?? X) have no optical out port. So mix-amps and their ilk are already redundant unless you want to go down the 3rd part hdmi spltter route (I think Astro are making one - but I fear that's because their business model is under threat) So I think the tempest option on PS5 is (in my case) the only option. My Sennheisers will be plugged into the controller like a long time ago. $ony have invested a lot of hardware into the sound so I guess - it'll be like the creative blaster i have connected externally today - only propriety and internal.
As will all the next gen console stuff. It remains to be seen.
|
|
|
Post by illram on Sept 28, 2020 14:01:03 GMT -5
So I think what you're saying is that games need to be optimised well with 3D audio in mind in order for the sound to be impressive? And in many cases you would opt for regular 5.1 dolby headphone virtual surround over the newer Atmos for headphones? Yes and yes (but see below for a more thorough explanation of what Dolby Headphone is). Depends on whether the game does Atmos well. Modern Warfare definitely does not. Rear and front cues are nonexistent. Height cues too. Since this is all software though, theoretically that could improve. And, since this is also based on your individual HRTF and how closely it matches whatever generic head/ear shape Dolby is going off, you may have a different experience. That is really cool and is what you need for good, quality HRTF. This is similar to what the Creative Super X-Fi dongle/amp currently does (but it is on PC only.) If that works then yeah most of these external devices may actually become moot. So, some of these products actually use a different algorithm than Dolby headphone. Dolby Headphone really only exists for consoles due to how consoles limit their audio outputs. On PC it is useless since you can apply any algorithm you want to PCM surround from Windows. For instance the X7 and G6 uses its own DSP, different from Dolby Headphone called "SBX." They advertise Dolby decoding, which is admittedly sort of confusing, because they can take a Dolby Digital 5.1 bitstream out from Xbox and PS4 and decode it. Dolby Digital is Dolby's proprietary encoding to compress 5.1 channel speaker (not headphone) surround over optical connections, since optical connections do not have bandwidth to pass uncompressed PCM 5.1 channel audio. Then SBX takes that now uncompressed 5.1 speaker info and applies its own HRTF algorithm. It does sound different from Dolby Headphone. I believe DTS also makes one, which is what Steelseries' dac/amp uses (forget its name). This is necessary for any product that wants to use virtual surround over headphones (other than Atmos or Sonic) on consoles but does not want to pay Microsoft's tax to use its USB audio out. They must either use Dolby Headphone or decode Dolby Digital or DTS 5.1 speaker bitstreams, and apply their own algorithm. Totally normal to be confused, as these details are really never advertised or explained. This is still a really niche market. And all of the above will change depending on how the next-gen consoles decide to handle audio output options. For instance if the PS5 is dropping optical audio out, it remains to be seen how much they choose to lock down their USB audio out (e.g. if you could run a PCM 7.1 channel out from USB then, you have a bunch of options on what you can do.) I personally prefer SBX over Dolby Headphone as it sounds less tinny/reverby to me, and the rear cues are very noticeable, but since HRTF is highly subjective, some people do prefer Dolby Headphone over it. I loathe DTS:X, which is what the Steelseries GameDAC uses. Sounds awful. For PC though Creative Super X-Fi is far and away absolutely superior to anything. Even most Atmos streams that I have heard. If you are going to game on the PS5 going forward, I might wait to see what their surround system will be, as it does actually sound really promising that they are going to be using specific ear calibration. That is what sets the Super X-Fi apart from the competition currently.
|
|
qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
|
Post by qupie on Sept 29, 2020 6:46:05 GMT -5
That's a really good explanation there Illram, sums it up better than I have ever read. It took me about 2 years to figure out how that works lol, especially the creative solution, with their non dolby headphones but dolby ready kinda thing...
Really interesting which direction the next gen consoles are going to go. It might be a deciding factor for me (and if sony is actually going to create an elite controller).
In my personal experience, my (old) mixamp with DH is still an advantage. There is a very important distinction to make though, which I feel is part of why you are not agreeing with each other. Dolby headphones does in fact screw up your audio quality , hard to disagree with that. However, it does improve the directionality. And while it is true DH works in varying degrees between games, it has always given me an advantage listening for footsteps.
Tried on 4 different headphones (Audioquest nightowl, akg 550, akg k612, and the crappy astro that came with the mixamp) on probably 5 or 6 different game engines (COD, destiny, fortnite, titanfall, and probably some others), and all had the same results. Audio fidelity went down, directionality went up. I do believe that earbuds are probably going to give you the least effect though, so if that is your only experience I can see why you didn't see the upside.
|
|
exaltedvanguard
True Bro
Hey look... uh... Over... uh... THERE!
Posts: 10,226
|
Post by exaltedvanguard on Sept 29, 2020 19:45:39 GMT -5
For clarity, I recommend earbuds due to price per performance. You can get a fantastic pair of earbuds for like $50 (previous gen klipsch or sennheiser can usually be found around this price point), and these will generally produce significantly better sound than any headphones you can buy at that price point. They'll have a reasonably flat response curve with accurate sound reproduction.
It also eliminates the possibility any HRTF problems created by ear geometry mismatch and/or resonance in the headphone cup.
If you want ultimate quality, you'll be dropping a couple hundred on open-back over-ears.
In broad generalization: Cheap earbuds are worse than cheap headphones. "Expensive" earbuds are better than midrange headphones (but cost the same). Expensive headphones are best... But very expensive.
|
|
Gamma
True Bro
Posts: 127
|
Post by Gamma on Sept 30, 2020 8:38:10 GMT -5
Wow thank you, that clears up a lot So I guess what I'll do is wait and see what the PS5 audio is like. But plugging headphones into a controller doesn't scream hi-fi. Instead, I'll try to run my headphones through the schiit stack, to PS5 via USB. If PS5's 3D audio is unimpressive, I'll perhaps wait for an alternative that is compatible with console. But as it stands I think I'm done with the Mixamp dolby headphone tinny sound. Also, the knowledge you've shared is really interesting, I've not garnered much from forums I've looked at. Any sources you would recommend? I know Madlustenvy has the gaming audiophile bible, and r/headphones on reddit has some useful stuff. Regarding the Realiser A16, I actually recall you telling me this 2 years ago on here. I could've sworn your delivery was already overdue in Autumn 2018, I was planning to ask you about your impressions on it
|
|
|
Post by illram on Oct 2, 2020 18:16:14 GMT -5
Wow thank you, that clears up a lot So I guess what I'll do is wait and see what the PS5 audio is like. But plugging headphones into a controller doesn't scream hi-fi. Instead, I'll try to run my headphones through the schiit stack, to PS5 via USB. If PS5's 3D audio is unimpressive, I'll perhaps wait for an alternative that is compatible with console. But as it stands I think I'm done with the Mixamp dolby headphone tinny sound. Also, the knowledge you've shared is really interesting, I've not garnered much from forums I've looked at. Any sources you would recommend? I know Madlustenvy has the gaming audiophile bible, and r/headphones on reddit has some useful stuff. Regarding the Realiser A16, I actually recall you telling me this 2 years ago on here. I could've sworn your delivery was already overdue in Autumn 2018, I was planning to ask you about your impressions on it Yeah MLE's thread at Head-Fi is probably the best resource. MLE and some other people in that thread are really knowledgeable on this stuff. (If I say anything contrary to MLE, go with him!) The Smyth Realiser A16 thread at Head-fi is also a good resource for very very technical discussions of this stuff. (In the "summit-fi" section.) r/headphones is hit or miss, you see a lot of the regurgitated "virtual surround is fake" stuff on reddit but once in a while there is a quality post. I think when HeSuVi first released his plugin, he did so at r/headphones. And yeah delivery is waaaay overdue on the Realiser. It's sort of a comedy at this point but the business is slowly shipping out units, like 2 per week or something ridiculous. So it's happening. I'll probably get mine next year, finger's crossed....
|
|
|
Post by illram on Oct 2, 2020 18:17:54 GMT -5
That's a really good explanation there Illram, sums it up better than I have ever read. It took me about 2 years to figure out how that works lol, especially the creative solution, with their non dolby headphones but dolby ready kinda thing... Really interesting which direction the next gen consoles are going to go. It might be a deciding factor for me (and if sony is actually going to create an elite controller). In my personal experience, my (old) mixamp with DH is still an advantage. There is a very important distinction to make though, which I feel is part of why you are not agreeing with each other. Dolby headphones does in fact screw up your audio quality , hard to disagree with that. However, it does improve the directionality. And while it is true DH works in varying degrees between games, it has always given me an advantage listening for footsteps. Tried on 4 different headphones (Audioquest nightowl, akg 550, akg k612, and the crappy astro that came with the mixamp) on probably 5 or 6 different game engines (COD, destiny, fortnite, titanfall, and probably some others), and all had the same results. Audio fidelity went down, directionality went up. I do believe that earbuds are probably going to give you the least effect though, so if that is your only experience I can see why you didn't see the upside. Yeah one of the reasons I dislike DH is it has a very "head in a tin can" sound to it. Other solutions don't sound as reverby. But as you say its directionality is pretty well regarded, which is ultimately what many of us are going for, particularly in a game like COD where it can be a competitive advantage.
|
|
qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
|
Post by qupie on Oct 6, 2020 4:30:38 GMT -5
For clarity, I recommend earbuds due to price per performance. You can get a fantastic pair of earbuds for like $50 (previous gen klipsch or sennheiser can usually be found around this price point), and these will generally produce significantly better sound than any headphones you can buy at that price point. They'll have a reasonably flat response curve with accurate sound reproduction. It also eliminates the possibility any HRTF problems created by ear geometry mismatch and/or resonance in the headphone cup. If you want ultimate quality, you'll be dropping a couple hundred on open-back over-ears. In broad generalization: Cheap earbuds are worse than cheap headphones. "Expensive" earbuds are better than midrange headphones (but cost the same). Expensive headphones are best... But very expensive. I would be totally with you a few years ago, go for a mid tier set of buds of an older generation. But with the current chi-fi explosion, I would advocate to go for a newer pair. Tin T2 or Blon BL03 are a steal for 20 bucks for example. And that was last year, I haven't been doing the research this year but I am sure there are some sub 50 dollar killers out there. The point remains though, clarity is not the most important thing most gamers are looking for. Accurate imaging and sound stage is, which some relatively cheap headphones can in fact do better. You won't be getting them for 20 bucks, but the PC37x is for example a very good, wel reviewed and well made headset for 100 bucks. Its the go to headset I advice gamers to buy when they are on a budget.
|
|
Gamma
True Bro
Posts: 127
|
Post by Gamma on Nov 12, 2020 10:22:25 GMT -5
Yeah one of the reasons I dislike DH is it has a very "head in a tin can" sound to it. Other solutions don't sound as reverby. But as you say its directionality is pretty well regarded, which is ultimately what many of us are going for, particularly in a game like COD where it can be a competitive advantage. illram I think I'm about ready to bite the bullet and buy my endgame setup. Talking purely competitive audio. I'm under the impression HD800S + A16 Realiser is the pinnacle? For the moment I'm waiting to see if Super X-Fi will be supported on PS5, and then buy HD800s with the SBX3 until I can get the A16. Are the HD800s considered the very best? Is there a tier-list of sorts, regarding which cans are considered most competitive for gaming, like what would be put in S-tier. Many recurrent ones noted include AD700x, HD598, KXX, DT1990
|
|
|
Post by illram on Nov 12, 2020 15:26:51 GMT -5
I mean the rabbit hole can get very deep. Depends how deep you want to go. HD800S soundstage and imaging is pretty incredible. Can't go wrong with that.
If money is no barrier look at STAX electrostatic, too. Estat tech has imaging that really can't be matched by dynamics (i.e., basically every other headphone driver in existence other than planars). A cheaper estat option I personally have and enjoy as close to the HD800S for gaming is the Koss ESP950. I think Massdrop has a version with velour pads, the ESP9xx. The original pads feel really flimsy. People have said if you use a STAX amp with the Koss you basically get STAX quality at a fraction of the price. But STAX amps are, I think, Japanese so you may need a power converter or inverter or whatever it is called. Haven't looked into that in a while. The Smyths originally had people try the Realiser with STAX headphones, before they switched to the HD800S due to expense and complication of lugging around the estat amps everywhere vs just plugging the headphones in.
Not insane money level options to consider are the ones you have listed (have not tried the DT1990, but I have tried all the others and they are good). Also consider planars such as the HE-560 by HiFiman, which also has a great soundstage and imaging and is not often discussed as it used to be really expensive and people sort of forgot about it. (The new Massdrop 5xx is not a 560.)
Just keep in mind that headphones that typically excel in competitive shooters are more neutral and open and if you are coming from a more "consumer" sound, e.g. more bass, closed, etc., they may at first sound sibilant. Might even dislike it at first. Our ears sometimes get accustomed to rumbly of bass as "quality." But when you hear real, deep and well resolved bass from a planar, for example, it's pretty great. A compromise on "fun" (i.e., deep planar bass) and competitive would be planars from Audeze. I think they recently came out with a headset planar? GSX or something. I have the LCD classic which I love. Super fun headphone.
Also keep in mind most gaming surround amps are not going to drive headphones like the HD800S to their top levels. Even if they have sufficient power to make them loud. (But it will still sound great for directional cues.) You could also invest in something like a Monoprice THX-887, which is an affordable way to really drive your HD800S at top levels (balanced), for when you want to listen to some music and really hear the headphone for what it can do.
|
|
Gamma
True Bro
Posts: 127
|
Post by Gamma on Nov 17, 2020 12:52:47 GMT -5
I mean the rabbit hole can get very deep. Depends how deep you want to go. HD800S soundstage and imaging is pretty incredible. Can't go wrong with that. If money is no barrier look at STAX electrostatic, too. Estat tech has imaging that really can't be matched by dynamics (i.e., basically every other headphone driver in existence other than planars). A cheaper estat option I personally have and enjoy as close to the HD800S for gaming is the Koss ESP950. I think Massdrop has a version with velour pads, the ESP9xx. The original pads feel really flimsy. People have said if you use a STAX amp with the Koss you basically get STAX quality at a fraction of the price. But STAX amps are, I think, Japanese so you may need a power converter or inverter or whatever it is called. Haven't looked into that in a while. The Smyths originally had people try the Realiser with STAX headphones, before they switched to the HD800S due to expense and complication of lugging around the estat amps everywhere vs just plugging the headphones in. Not insane money level options to consider are the ones you have listed (have not tried the DT1990, but I have tried all the others and they are good). Also consider planars such as the HE-560 by HiFiman, which also has a great soundstage and imaging and is not often discussed as it used to be really expensive and people sort of forgot about it. (The new Massdrop 5xx is not a 560.) Just keep in mind that headphones that typically excel in competitive shooters are more neutral and open and if you are coming from a more "consumer" sound, e.g. more bass, closed, etc., they may at first sound sibilant. Might even dislike it at first. Our ears sometimes get accustomed to rumbly of bass as "quality." But when you hear real, deep and well resolved bass from a planar, for example, it's pretty great. A compromise on "fun" (i.e., deep planar bass) and competitive would be planars from Audeze. I think they recently came out with a headset planar? GSX or something. I have the LCD classic which I love. Super fun headphone. Also keep in mind most gaming surround amps are not going to drive headphones like the HD800S to their top levels. Even if they have sufficient power to make them loud. (But it will still sound great for directional cues.) You could also invest in something like a Monoprice THX-887, which is an affordable way to really drive your HD800S at top levels (balanced), for when you want to listen to some music and really hear the headphone for what it can do. Thank you for sharing that, I really appreciate the detail - been ruminating on what's been said. I was set on the HD800S but now feel like I'm back to the drawing board, as I'm curious about Audeze's LCD-X and Hifiman's Arya. In terms of amping, the Monoprice looks incredibly cost-effective. For the HD800S I was thinking of pairing with the HDV820, considerably more expensive but is said to compliment them perfectly. I'm not sure, perhaps it's overkill and overpriced? Looked into Stax aswell, you're right Smyths were using the SR2170 before switching to the HD800s. And the SR2170 headphone/amp combo is actually cheaper here than the HD800s alone. How do your HD800s and Koss compare to one another for both gaming and entertainment? Considering 2170 is described as Stax's entry-level, and Smyth says they match the performance of the HD800S, Stax's higher range lineup must be incredible. There's also Hifiman's estat Jade 2. However, there is one annoying roadblock for getting estat for me - I likely won't be able to use it with the PS5, which right now has utterly abysmal USB capabilities. Many are using the SBX G6 as a workaround, but it's not a perfect solution for highly demanding headphones. So I guess the problem I have right now is: -Do I buy either the HD800S, LCD-X, Arya. Or from the three choices I buy two, making one dedicated to competition, and the other for immersion/entertainment. -Or do I get the HD800S + HDV820 combo -Or do I forget about all of that and just go for a Stax estat that I probably won't be able to pair with my console I should also bear in mind that I likely will buy the A16 in the near future. I remember a couple years ago I missed the kickstarter price, and emailed James Smyth to enquire - he offered to secure me a unit at the then increased price of $2395 but I declined as I wasn't so invested at the time. Now at present it is $3995. Quite a bummer, puts me off getting the HDV820 as once I get the A16 it'll make the HDV redundant, and I know I'll find it difficult to sell. I'm still stuck with a FiiO from years ago that I used once but couldn't find a buyer.
|
|
|
Post by illram on Nov 19, 2020 20:51:36 GMT -5
Personally, I'd go the HD800S and pair it with something a little more "fun." I bought and tried bunch of headphones for a few years and now have basically settled on my HD800S for competitive games like WZ where I want directional accuracy, and either my Fostex THX00 Purple Hearts which are bass cannons, or my LCD Classic for single player games, music and movies or just when I want something different or with some more bass.
I've never tried the HDV820. I have a iFi Micro iDSD Black Label that works well with the HD800S (and any headphone, really) and fits in well in a console + PC setup. But if I was starting from scratch I'd try the Monoprice THX or the Massdrop equivalent. I have wanted one ever since they came out but just can't justify yet another headphone purchase...
|
|
|
Post by GodMars on Feb 28, 2021 13:59:46 GMT -5
Hey guys, been a while. I’ll be picking up my PS5 from Best Buy on the 4th, so I’m headset shopping. I’ve been using Sennheiser HD598s plugged into an Astro Mixamp for a long time, but that’s not going to work with the loss of the optical port. I need to dig through this discussion to see what folks are thinking.
|
|
|
Post by illram on Mar 3, 2021 16:49:06 GMT -5
I've heard good things about Sony's Tempest audio. It's the cheapest and most straightforward, no fuss solution if it works, since you need no other hardware or software and you can use your 598 cans. (I haven't tried it, I don't own a PS4.)
Virtual surround is very subjective as it literally depends on each person's individual ear shape so you won't really know for sure until you get your hands on it and play around with it.
|
|
qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
|
Post by qupie on Mar 15, 2021 5:48:26 GMT -5
So I have been deepdiving into this for a bit. GodMars: I personally got a pc38x a few weeks ago, and I must say I am pleasantly surprised (only the clamping bothered me but each night I stretch it on the PS5 box and that helps a ton). illram: The Tempest engine is somewhat of a mixed bag. At this point, it only sounds good in a few games, in most games you are better off diabling them. I really hope 3rd party developers (aka COD) are going to implement it into their games, but that will be on sony on hard it is to implement. After doing quite a bit of research I found this video which I think sums it up pretty well: Now the real bummer in all of this, is that the PS5 still only supports UAC1, which is honestly just embarrassing at this point (UAC2 was release in 2011). That means that 90% of all modern USB DACs are automatically excluded from connecting to the PS5. Furthermore, the PS5 only puts stereo through USB, no multichannel signals. The positive side on that though, is that it does send 3D Tempest audio signals over USB, but right now, you really don't want that for most games (especially COD). So when connecting your DAC over USB, you are stuck with a 2.0 signal. That brings us at option 2, you could still get an optical 5.1 or 7.1 signal from your PS5 via 2 pathways. The first (and easiest) one is via the optical output on your TV, almost all TV's have an optical output, and most of those can directly pass the 5.1 or 7.1 they get via HDMI through the optical cable. The second way, is to use a HDMI extractor, if your TV (or monitor) doesn't have an optical out. I ordered one the other day but I am still in debate if it is going to be worth it. I need to figure out a way to test if this device adds significant input lag to my monitor (if anyone knows a testing method, I am all ears!). I personally got this one www.amazon.co.uk/WIMI-Digital-Extractor-Converter-Splitter-Black/dp/B075PWGM77. Additional drawbacks on this route, is that you are going to loose HDMI 2.1, but my monitor doesn't support that anyway so that is not a problem for me personally. The good news for you GodMars is that you can in fact, keep using your mixamp, but it will only work with stereo, unless you can extract the optical signal via your tv or an extractor. I have been using the mixamp in stereo, in honestly, I might even prefer it over the (tinny) DH implementation of the mixamp. I am however debating to buy a SoundblasterX G6, they offer refurbished ones quite often for 50% of the price. But first I have to figure out this part of the imput delay on the HDMI extractor. So if anyone knows how to test that, please let me know . I hope this helps anyone who finds this.
|
|
Gamma
True Bro
Posts: 127
|
Post by Gamma on Apr 5, 2021 9:10:26 GMT -5
Hey guys, been a while. I’ll be picking up my PS5 from Best Buy on the 4th, so I’m headset shopping. I’ve been using Sennheiser HD598s plugged into an Astro Mixamp for a long time, but that’s not going to work with the loss of the optical port. I need to dig through this discussion to see what folks are thinking. I bought the HD598s with astro mixamp tr back in 2015, which I believe was on your suggestion! Theyve been pretty flawless for 6 years, had no issues. Bought the PC38x after MLEs review, but honestly believe them to be a downgrade from the HD598 for competitive gaming. I tested them extensively on MW2019 and for gaming, the HD598s are just wholly superior. Upgraded to the HD800S on Illram's suggestion and they are pretty amazing. Wrt Tempest vs Dolby headphone I repeatedly tested which was better for soundwhoring in private and public matches of MW2019 using both the boost and boost high audio mixes. Using the Astro mixamp TR with HD598s. For me, I found Sony's tempest to be superior and so have since made my mixamp redundant. Fwiw I had also tested SBX which I found didn't suit me. The back left and back right audio cues felt off to me. Whereas Tempest and DH were pretty spot on making me think they both might use the same or similar head/ear shape for their VSS
|
|
|
Post by illram on Apr 6, 2021 18:56:56 GMT -5
Congrats on the HD800S purchase! May they provide you years of enjoyment.
|
|