A Juggernaut Question

[Clay]

Hey, Den

Just wondering. What are your thoughts on juggernaut?

One of your posts on your Xanga implies that you like it, but honestly, I couldn't make sense of your actual reasoning why. Care to it down for me?

[Den]

The "Juggernaut is for heroes" is a joke filler... but it isn't without ground.

Juggernaut allows the player to survive one extra bullet's worth of damage.
Stopping Power allows the player to eliminate all enemies with one less bullet each.
In a server with eight guys on the other team, "Bullet Damage" has eight times the effectiveness of "Armor Vest".

The ratio of use between Power and Juggernaut is more than ten to one (twenty, thirty to one, maybe). Such a massive majority of players use Stopping Power as if it were an absolute necessity that it truly does become a necessity.

The few who use Juggernaut are using it more as a defense against Power rather than a Perk of its own merit.

A major problem... the name and the description.
"JUGGERNAUT - Extra health"
So many still believe that "Juggernaut" increases player health from 100 to 150 or 175 or some such number and that it takes "liek a million shots to kill" (read this yesterday in-game).

The very name perpetuates disdain against it and sends the wrong message as to how it works.
"Juggernaut" sounds cool and all, but its coded name "Armor Vest" and proper description "Absorbs some damage from enemy gunfire." would be much less discriminated against, even if it still worked the same exact way.

I almost never use Juggernaut because it is a... weak perk. Goes well with the Dragunov for countersniping but in a close fight it is far more likely to lose against multiple enemies than Stopping Power.

I try to stay away from Stopping Power, but I have it on at least one class to be on par with other Power enemies.

Something like that.

[dog]

^ +1

I've got so annoyed by people who constantly whine about it in the forums, that I've once quoted the joke as my siggy to ridicule them.

Hehe. Sry about that.

[qupie]

I think it is pretty weak to, but I just hate it when I'm in my ariska/camo class.... I just really can't kill them... they always hide after the first shot, and even a headshot won't kill in one shot. (What is just bull.... because the scoped garand has a 2.0 multiplier in the head, and the real snipers don't....
However I don't want to complain about it, because it is pretty much the only time I don't like my opponents havin it.

[Clay]

Alright, so let me try this one. Stopping Power is better than Juggernaut. Juggernaut, though not as good at Stopping Power, reduces the effectiveness of Stopping power. So when you could be gaining your own advantage of killing, you're instead just making the opposing team a little weaker.

...?

[dynamiterabbit]

and making people mad

[Protolisk]

Depends what you do with it.

If you get shot more than you shoot back then Juggernaut is for you.

If you shoot people more than you get shot at Stopping Power is better.

Most of the time I usually shot more than get shot at so I use stopping power. I do use Juggernaut sometimes though, to piss people off, annoy M16ers and use with guns that already do high damage.

Its equal to Stopping power but its more defensive. How many times have you not been using stopping power and shot someone and said gosh darn golly gee whiz if only I had stopping power he would be dead. Compared to how many times you say gosh darn golly gee whiz I should of put on Juggernaut then I wouldn't of died.

Its just not as useful but it depends on your play style.


lolololol "D@mn" counts as a swear word and it replaces it with "gosh darn golly gee whiz"

[qupie]

Well, I think on almost every map, hiding and surprising your opponent is better then one extra bullit, so if my gun is strong enough I prefer camo any day. (I don't even think I've used jugger anytime in cod 5 yet....)

[AvatarZero]

Maybe it's a psychological thing, but I find that Juggernaut is more effective than Stopping Power in World at War, the opposite of what it felt like in Modern Warfare. Maybe it's because things fire slower in general? It could also be the MP40 thing.

Although, in either game, I find Juggernaut to be better if I lag a little - it doesn't put me on equal footing with everyone else, but at least I don't die instantly.

[dog]

Hey Den,

Regarding the Armor Vest in _class.gsc:

initPerkDvars()
{
level.cac_bulletdamage_data = cac_get_dvar_int( "perk_bulletDamage", "40" ); // increased bullet damage by this %
level.cac_armorvest_data = cac_get_dvar_int( "perk_armorVest", "75" ); // increased health by this %
level.cac_explosivedamage_data = cac_get_dvar_int( "perk_explosiveDamage", "25" ); // increased explosive damage by this %
}

I'm a lil' lost here. I thought that "armorvest" is suppose to "decrease bullet damage to this %" instead of increasing health. Obviously, it couldn't be possible that it increases health by 75% since a single slash from the knife could kill a player wielding Juggy. I must have missed something... don't mind if you could point it out, Den?

[Den]

That isn't all of it.
The functions for Juggernaut in _class.gsc is further down, near the bottom.

// if attacker has no bullet damage then check if victim has armor
// if victim has armor then less damage is taken, else damage unchanged

if( isdefined( victim ) && isPlayer( victim ) && victim cac_hasSpecialty( "specialty_armorvest" ) )
{
final_damage = old_damage*(level.cac_armorvest_data/100);
/#
if ( getdvarint("scr_perkdebug") )
println( "Perk/> " + victim.name + "'s armor decreased " + attacker.name + "'s damage" );
#/
}

This is the code that dictates damage through Juggernaut.

"old_damage" is the damage that the weapon delivers without any perks.
"level.cac_armorvest_data" is the variable you quoted, which would be 75.

So the old damage, for example, 40, would be multiplied by 75 divided by 100 (which is 0.75), leading to the decreased 30.

[ssog]

Jan 13, 2009 9:53:16 GMT -5 Den said:

The "Juggernaut is for heroes" is a joke filler... but it isn't without ground.

Juggernaut allows the player to survive one extra bullet's worth of damage.
Stopping Power allows the player to eliminate all enemies with one less bullet each.
In a server with eight guys on the other team, "Bullet Damage" has eight times the effectiveness of "Armor Vest".

The ratio of use between Power and Juggernaut is more than ten to one (twenty, thirty to one, maybe). Such a massive majority of players use Stopping Power as if it were an absolute necessity that it truly does become a necessity.

The few who use Juggernaut are using it more as a defense against Power rather than a Perk of its own merit.

A major problem... the name and the description.
"JUGGERNAUT - Extra health"
So many still believe that "Juggernaut" increases player health from 100 to 150 or 175 or some such number and that it takes "liek a million shots to kill" (read this yesterday in-game).

The very name perpetuates disdain against it and sends the wrong message as to how it works.
"Juggernaut" sounds cool and all, but its coded name "Armor Vest" and proper description "Absorbs some damage from enemy gunfire." would be much less discriminated against, even if it still worked the same exact way.

I almost never use Juggernaut because it is a... weak perk. Goes well with the Dragunov for countersniping but in a close fight it is far more likely to lose against multiple enemies than Stopping Power.

I try to stay away from Stopping Power, but I have it on at least one class to be on par with other Power enemies.

Something like that.

Juggernaut is not a weak perk, it's just not a globally strong perk like SP. In Softcore, SP will be good 98% of the time. It's good at long range, short range, medium range, with pistols, with SMGs, with LMGs, with Rifles, with snipers. It's a very easy perk requiring little thought. If you make a class, odds are fantastic SP will improve it. There are a few exceptions (the Dragunov, Shotguns, and those whackos who only use their knives), but outside of that, SP = good.

Juggernaut, on the other hand, definitely has some situations where it is very good, and others where it is only slightly good. It's not very good at long range, where the enemy can easily keep their sights trained on you for that extra split second required. It is, however, VERY good at close range, where you can easily get out of their crosshairs before they can finish their job. It's not good against LMGs or SMGs that spray bullets like there's no tomorrow, but it's very good against snipers (effectively doubling the amount of shots they have to land in order to log the kill). It's not very good if you tend to remain stationary, but it's very good if you have a light weapon and do a lot of moving from cover to cover.

Juggernaut is pretty much mandatory for any Shotgunner that passes on Sleight of Hand, in my opinion. They're fast, they're always moving, and they prefer to do their work in close quarters- the three situations where Jugg really shines. Jugg is also great on any counter-sniper, because it makes you EXPONENTIALLY harder to kill by the scoped ones. I also have a lot of fun with a class that uses a Saw + Grip, Juggernaut, and Steady Aim and then runs around pretending he's using an SMG, but that's more of a novelty than anything else. I also like Jugg on Wet Works and Shipment because it offers protection against the inevitable grenade spam.

Of course, as a camper by nature, I personally think the argument is pretty silly. For my playstyle, the question isn't whether I should use Jugg or SP... it's why on earth I'd use either over UAV Jammer.

It's okay, though. You're still my bro, bro.

[whole9yards24]

Jan 20, 2009 1:07:52 GMT -5 ssog said:

Of course, as a camper by nature, I personally think the argument is pretty silly. For my playstyle, the question isn't whether I should use Jugg or SP... it's why on earth I'd use either over UAV Jammer.

QFT

I play Hardcore TDM, and I camp. For me, there isn't a reason to use anything but UAV Jammer/Camouflage.

[adw1983]

CoD4:

Juggernaut in 100 health mode:
-You take less damage from explosives, cutting away a conciderable range from RPGs, M203s and GP30s as well as C4.
-You can take one additional bullet from all weapons
-Dragunov, Barett M82, M14, M60, Desert Eagle, M1014 and W1200 can still kill in the same number of hits with and without stopping power, while your opponents must hit you once more if they use stopping power and you use these weapons and juggernaut.
-Skorpion kills in two hits without stopping power up to shotgun range.
-Juggernaut works best on short range (OR long range for dragunov) due to the effective weapons losing their advantage over the weapons with stopping power on far medium range.

Juggernaut is mainly hated on because it's disruptive.
People are used to beeing able to kill other players with two shots to the head -- when they suddenly take three hits to the head before they die, it upsets people.

Arguably, juggernaut is the only perk of three perks that affects other players more than it affects the player that use it.
Stopping power makes YOU deal more damage against everyone.
Juggernaut makes EVERYONE ELSE deal less damage to you.

The subtle difference is that you can climb a ladder and recieve the benefits from juggernaut, you can aim, shoot and miss by a mile and still recieve the benefits of juggernaut, and you can go to the toilet and still recieve the full benefit of juggernaut while you're taking a piss.
You don't recieve any benefits from stopping power even if you put away the controller for one second.
It could also be said that juggernaut is passive, while most other perks are active.

Passive perks:
-Juggernaut
-Martyrdom
-UAV jammer -- which we all accept because people with UAV jammer are easy kills EXCEPT when there's an UAV active in ground war.

Are we seeing a pattern here..?
People simply hate passive perks: The perks you don't have to actively use, but which you still recieve the full benefits from.

[nfe0007]

I think Juggernaut is a brilliant perk. It takes more bullets for me to die, so I can fire back if I am being shot at from behind, provided that the player shooting me can't kill me in time due to their innaccuracies. It forces Stopping Power users to use another bullet, meaning that they may miss, whereas me, the better player, may hit with all my bullets, so with juggernaut i can kill them, whereas with stopping power i would have died as i woul not have been able to react. Ultimately, in a 1 on 1 fight, juggernaut proves the better player, who can sustain fire on the enemy for longer, and alows for mistakes to be made, with extra damage resistance backing you up. It is alot easier to play this game whilst being able to take an extra bullet, it really throws people who spray off their game, as they may hip fire and start missing if they can only get two lucky hits in when they need three.

[pengalor]

Feb 6, 2009 20:03:03 GMT -5 nfe0007 said:

Ultimately, in a 1 on 1 fight, juggernaut proves the better player, who can sustain fire on the enemy for longer, and alows for mistakes to be made, with extra damage resistance backing you up.

Wait, wait, wait. It proves you are a better player by allowing you to make mistakes? Anyone else see the problem with this? : P

Anywho, my take on Juggernaut is that it is I guess what has been called a "passive" perk above. It literally requires you to do nothing but get shot. I honestly do not understand how this translates into skill. With SP, at least you are required to keep the target in your sights in order to land hits. All Jug seems to do is allow people to turn around and pump a shotgun shell into my face, either because of lag or a random kick from the recoil of my gun. It also tends to render Bolt-Actions generally useless against that person. Even if I land a good shot, if they are able to click a mouse they can kill me before I can finish cycling the bolt for my second shot.

As far as being a "defense" against SP, I think that if you are truly a good player, then you don't need something to counteract SP. You can use SP yourself and outplay your enemies. But I don't think Jug is a "noob" perk or anything. It just seems like a little too much BS every one in a while.

[nfe0007]

Feb 8, 2009 15:14:56 GMT -5 pengalor said:

Feb 6, 2009 20:03:03 GMT -5 nfe0007 said:

Ultimately, in a 1 on 1 fight, juggernaut proves the better player, who can sustain fire on the enemy for longer, and alows for mistakes to be made, with extra damage resistance backing you up.

Wait, wait, wait. It proves you are a better player by allowing you to make mistakes? Anyone else see the problem with this? : P

.

That was a conclusion, they were two different points. Read the whole thing to understand.

Anyway, in order to kill people when you have Juggernaut on requires you to land more shots than those who choose SP when you both attack a neutral (non-jugger) player. This shows that Juggernaut requires more skill to use. It doesn't increase your attack power at all, so you can't kill people as quickly, meaning you have to rely on your sustained fire.

[sketchybrown]

Feb 6, 2009 20:03:03 GMT -5 nfe0007 said:

Ultimately, in a 1 on 1 fight, juggernaut proves the better player, who can sustain fire on the enemy for longer, and alows for mistakes to be made, with extra damage resistance backing you up.

Yeah wtf? I thought I knew what you were getting at but I'm still lost here... Is the better player the person without Juggernaut who can sustain fire more consistently and thus take out the Juggernaut first? That would require all Juggernaut users to be bad at firing consistently... right? agggghhh /head asplodes

______
Myself, Juggernaut doesn't bother me unless I can't get a second shot off on them when not using SP and I'm sniping. ;D

Not to mention... Juggernaut is awesome on certain classes (ex: the annoying counter-sniper, rushing shotgunner, mid range HMG badass, etc)

Otherwise, that little cross pops up for a reason - its telling you to keep firing until you get that +10... People complain about the stupidest things....


EDIT: Sorry, didn't see your post above - I get what you mean now... It makes sense that with Juggernaut on you would need consistent concentrated fire to kill more "average players" (eg: using SP) because your bullets aren't coated in kryptonite like everyone else's...

Not in every case, but in quite a lot of them, I would agree with you that a Juggernaut user who wins a 1v1 against a SP user has to be able to fire more precisely

[i8]

sp is better than jugg simply because its better to shoot someone than to be shot. the nature of fps is offensive so an offensive perk is better like sp or dt. the reason people get mad is because they use sp all the time and it makes them think that one less shot is normal but when someone cancels their sp with jugg they think that guy has more of an advantage over everyone else. that jugg symbol that pops up doesnt help its rep either.

[iKONIG]

OK I JUST WANNA SAY ONE THING...

damn

[iKONIG]

Yes!! It WORKED!! LOL!! HeHeHeHe

[spiderpig]

damn it

[Den]

Da­mn it, what are you kids doing?

[dog]

Feb 21, 2009 13:11:53 GMT -5 Den said:

Da­mn it, what are you kids doing?

Hey, no fair! Why can you type the D word?

[PHALCONPUNCH]

That's damn kool.

[imrlybord7]

I just have to try it out.
gosh darn golly gee whiz.
I capitalized the d. Den is trying to make me look bad by messing up my grammar! DAMN YOU!!!!!!

[ssog]

Feb 8, 2009 15:14:56 GMT -5 pengalor said:

Feb 6, 2009 20:03:03 GMT -5 nfe0007 said:

Ultimately, in a 1 on 1 fight, juggernaut proves the better player, who can sustain fire on the enemy for longer, and alows for mistakes to be made, with extra damage resistance backing you up.

Wait, wait, wait. It proves you are a better player by allowing you to make mistakes? Anyone else see the problem with this? : P

Anywho, my take on Juggernaut is that it is I guess what has been called a "passive" perk above. It literally requires you to do nothing but get shot. I honestly do not understand how this translates into skill. With SP, at least you are required to keep the target in your sights in order to land hits. All Jug seems to do is allow people to turn around and pump a shotgun shell into my face, either because of lag or a random kick from the recoil of my gun. It also tends to render Bolt-Actions generally useless against that person. Even if I land a good shot, if they are able to click a mouse they can kill me before I can finish cycling the bolt for my second shot.

As far as being a "defense" against SP, I think that if you are truly a good player, then you don't need something to counteract SP. You can use SP yourself and outplay your enemies. But I don't think Jug is a "noob" perk or anything. It just seems like a little too much BS every one in a while.

This is the dumbest argument ever. "You don't have to do anything to benefit from Juggernaut, so it requires no skill". Well, all you have to do to benefit from SP is pull down the right trigger, and my retarded pet chimp can do that, so it requires no skill.

The point of the game isn't to shoot or be shot... it's to KILL and NOT BE KILLED IN RETURN. In all instances, both aspects require SKILL. If you have a Juggernaut user with absolutely no skill, he will finish a game 0-20. If you have a SP user with absolutely no skill, he will finish a game 0-20. Sure, the Juggernaut user won't have to have a working index finger in order to use his perk, but both players will suck equally.

By that same token, if you have a great player with Juggernaut, he might finish 20-3. If you have a great player with Stopping Power, he might ALSO finish 20-3. Player skill is once again the determining factor in how well you do, NOT what perks you use.

So which perk really requires more skill? I'd actually say Juggernaut does, because SP is more *UNIVERSALLY USEFUL*. In 98% of situations, SP is a benefit, whereas Jugg is only a benefit in maybe 50% of situations. It therefore requires more skill to overcome that deficit. Sure, Juggernaut might be a perk for people who get shot a lot... but SP is a perk for people who can't aim.

[dog]

Hey Den, this just came into my mind: since Jugger reduces dmg to 0.75x it's original value, this affects all 20 dmg weapons in a way that they need 2 extra shots to kill instead of 1. Do you think that this is the reason why there's so much fuss against that perk?

[Den]

Anyone who cries about Juggernaut apparently isn't able to tell the difference between a "full clip", let alone two shots.

[zombiejesus]

Mar 6, 2009 16:06:21 GMT -5 ssog said:

This is the dumbest argument ever. "You don't have to do anything to benefit from Juggernaut, so it requires no skill". Well, all you have to do to benefit from SP is pull down the right trigger, and my retarded pet chimp can do that, so it requires no skill.

The point of the game isn't to shoot or be shot... it's to KILL and NOT BE KILLED IN RETURN. In all instances, both aspects require SKILL. If you have a Juggernaut user with absolutely no skill, he will finish a game 0-20. If you have a SP user with absolutely no skill, he will finish a game 0-20. Sure, the Juggernaut user won't have to have a working index finger in order to use his perk, but both players will suck equally.

By that same token, if you have a great player with Juggernaut, he might finish 20-3. If you have a great player with Stopping Power, he might ALSO finish 20-3. Player skill is once again the determining factor in how well you do, NOT what perks you use.

So which perk really requires more skill? I'd actually say Juggernaut does, because SP is more *UNIVERSALLY USEFUL*. In 98% of situations, SP is a benefit, whereas Jugg is only a benefit in maybe 50% of situations. It therefore requires more skill to overcome that deficit. Sure, Juggernaut might be a perk for people who get shot a lot... but SP is a perk for people who can't aim.

Wrong.

Pulling the trigger is not all one has to do to make use of SP. One actually has to connect the bullets with an enemy player. Juggernaut is only useful when getting shot, which requires no action whatsoever on the player's part. And SP is also for people who can aim, but wants to kill more quickly and efficiently. Firing fewer bullets is always better than firing more.

Den said it best. Which do you find yourself doing more often? Shooting people or getting shot? Decide that way if you want to choose by which comes in handy most often.

Also.. Not sure if you differentiate between new threads and replies to existing threads as far as first post goes, Den, but just to be on the safe side, I hope you know that you are my bro, bro.