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Post by ssog on Mar 11, 2009 16:34:53 GMT -5
Wrong. Pulling the trigger is not all one has to do to make use of SP. One actually has to connect the bullets with an enemy player. Juggernaut is only useful when getting shot, which requires no action whatsoever on the player's part. And SP is also for people who can aim, but wants to kill more quickly and efficiently. Firing fewer bullets is always better than firing more. Bomb Squad requires no action whatsoever on the player's part. Is Bomb Squad a n00b perk? What about Bandolier? Is Sleight of Hand more "skillful" than Flak Jacket because you actually have to tap "x" to use Sleight of Hand? You're ignoring the crux of my argument here- the point of the game isn't to shoot, get shot, get bullets, avoid bombs, or reload. The point of the game is to KILL and AVOID BEING KILLED in return. Both actions are determined by the skill level of the player involved, not the perks that the player has. Juggernaut doesn't prevent a player from dying if he doesn't have the skill to take advantage of it, just like SP doesn't get a player any kills if he doesn't have the skill to take advantage of it. My comment that "SP is a perk for people who can't aim" was a shot at all the comments that Juggernaut is a perk for people who get shot a lot. Both are gross oversimplifications of the subject. People who get shot a lot benefit from Jugg, just like people who can't aim benefit from SP... but they aren't the only ones. Lots of smart, skillful, tactical players can derive a benefit from Jugg. Those same players can derive an equal or greater benefit from SP. Calling one perk n00b and the other not is ludicrous. Especially because, given the general opinion both here and in the game itself (as evidenced by the relative popularity of the two perks), Stopping Power is the stronger perk. I'd argue that the STRONGER perk is the more n00b of the two. That's another stupid simplification. A better question is "which would you benefit more from- reducing the number of shots to kill by one, or increasing the number of shots to be killed by one". I could be the most badass Shotgunner on the face of the planet. I could shoot enemies 100 times a match and only get shot in return 15 times. I'd still gain more benefit from Juggernaut than I would from Stopping Power. By the same token, imagine I'm the world's worst sniper. I get shot 100 times a match and only connect on 15 of my shots. I can't get a headshot to save my life. In this instance, I benefit FAR more from SP than I do from Juggernaut. Edit: I don't know what Juggernaut ever did to provoke this irrational hatred. Never have I seen a dumber set of arguments than the set used against poor old Jugg. Especially when the evidence is plain as day in the usage patterns- if Jugg was really overpowered, people wouldn't be 5 times as likely to use SP. |
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 11, 2009 16:38:48 GMT -5
^
This.
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Den
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Post by Den on Mar 11, 2009 17:58:08 GMT -5
 shotgun juggernaut sniper power Oh hey, you just replaced the "stupid simplification" with the same simplification and terrible examples that require ideal, opposing situations. |
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Post by slashdolo on Mar 11, 2009 19:41:03 GMT -5
^lolz, that image is made of win
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Post by ssog on Mar 11, 2009 22:59:14 GMT -5
shotgun juggernaut sniper power Oh hey, you just replaced the "stupid simplification" with the same simplification and terrible examples that require ideal, opposing situations. There's a lot of value in "thought experiments". Real world situations never skew entirely to those extremes, but that doesn't mean they don't skew at all, and the advantages to be gained from that skewing are best discovered by examining the extremes. Saying "shooting more benefits from SP and getting shot more benefits from Jugg" is an oversimplification because the goal of the game isn't to shoot and not be shot in return. There are plenty of situations where shooting more doesn't necessarily benefit from SP and getting shot more doesn't necessarily benefit from Jugg. The shotgun and sniper examples tend to illustrate that Shotguns are usually better off with Juggernaut than SP, and sniper rifles are usually better off with SP than Juggernaut. The question is whether Stopping Power increases your killspeed more than not choosing Juggernaut increases the speed at which you are killed in turn. Or, on occasion, the question is whether SP really increases the efficacy with which you achieve kills at all. |
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Den
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Post by Den on Mar 12, 2009 2:16:40 GMT -5
Stopping Power is far superior than Juggernaut for a shotgun.
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Post by slashdolo on Mar 12, 2009 2:44:29 GMT -5
^for the M1014, yes, although SoH is more useful
for the W1200, there's really no point to Stopping Power as that thing kills in one shot 9 times out of 10
Juggernaut Excon absolutely rapes any other W1200 setup. Mobility plus health is incredibly useful for flanking and closing gaps, even when out in the open.
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Post by ssog on Mar 12, 2009 17:15:35 GMT -5
Stopping Power is far superior than Juggernaut for a shotgun. I really disagree. Some numbers: Double Barrel Without SP: 7 pellets to kill at 500 inches (max range) 6 pellets to kill at 492 inches 5 pellets to kill at 480 inches 4 pellets to kill at 460 inches 3 pellets to kill at 424 inches or less Double Barrel With SP 5 pellets to kill at 500 inches (max range) 4 pellets to kill at 488 inches 3 pellets to kill at 460 inches 2 pellets to kill at 416 inches or less Basically, SP makes an insignificant damage at the outer edge of the shotgun's range (5 pellets will kill a mere 20 inches closer without SP, 4 pellets kill 28 inches closer, and 3 pellets kill 36 inches closer). At the edge of a shotgun's range, you're trading your perk2 (the most valuable perk) for an extra 36 inches of potential killing range (potential being the key here, because you can still very easily land 4 pellets @ 460 inches). So the only advantage you're REALLY getting with SP is the ability to kill with 2 pellets instead of 3 pellets at very close ranges (under 416 inches). Of course, the ranges involved are so close that you're pretty much GUARANTEED to land 3 pellets unless the guy is just barely inside your reticle. So SP grants you the ability to shoot guys who are an extra... what, 5 degrees away from the center of your screen? That's such a pathetic and insignificant advantage compared to the ability to increase your survival time anywhere from a tenth of a second (against CQ SMGs who don't miss a shot) up to infinitely (turning a 1-shot sniper hit into a 2-shot proposition). That extra 10th of a second gives you time to respond with a gun that's a 1hk in close range. That extra second or two against snipers gives you time to find cover with a gun that's physically incapable of returning fire. Of course, it's a moot point, because both perks are way inferior to SoH on the Double Barrel. Just so you don't think I'm cherrypicking, here's the stats on the Trench Gun- Trench Gun without SP- 8 pellets kill at 555 inches 7 pellets kill at 525 inches 6 pellets kill at 495 inches 5 pellets kill at 450 inches 4 pellets kill at 375 inches or less Trench Gun with SP- 8 pellets kill at 600 inches (max range) 7 pellets kill at 585 inches 6 pellets kill at 555 inches 5 pellets kill at 525 inches 4 pellets kill at 480 inches 3 pellets kill at 375 inches or less The advantage is an extra 60 inches of range at the outer limits, and the ability to kill with 3 pellets instead of 4 at very close range. Due to the Trench Gun's tighter spread, I'd say the 3-pellet kill is an insignificant advantage (at 375 inches, if a guy's in your sights, you're going to get 4 pellets hitting... pretty much guaranteed), so the big advantage here is the extra 60 inches on the back end. The question again becomes whether you'd rather have an extra 60 inches of range, or the survivability advantage of Juggernaut. Once again, put me firmly in the Juggernaut camp. I figure I will get shot more times per game than I'll find myself firing at someone between 555 and 600 inches (and having all 8 pellets be on target, to boot), or even having 4 pellets land between 375 and 480 inches (probably the most likely place for a Trench Gun user to feel the advantage of SP). In fact, I'd say the Trench Gun probably gets more use out of Juggernaut than it does out of SoH, due to the slow rate of fire. Juggernaut helps a Trench Gunner survive encounters long enough to empty that clip in the first place. |
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 13, 2009 22:16:52 GMT -5
With SoH the Trench Gun can be fired at normal speed with no need to ever reload.
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Post by ssog on Mar 14, 2009 4:12:51 GMT -5
With SoH the Trench Gun can be fired at normal speed with no need to ever reload. Generally, if a Trench Gunner dies (in my experience), it's before he hits the "reloading" phase, because "normal speed" is so slow that he has trouble surviving long enough to get multiple shots off against multiple opponents. Without Jugg, a Trench Gunner might have difficulty surviving long enough for SoH to matter. Double Tap on the Trench Gun I can see, but SoH isn't as pressing of a concern as it is on the Double Barrel (where it's SoH, the whole SoH, and nothing but SoH, so help me God). |
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 15, 2009 10:12:43 GMT -5
Fire reload fire reload fire reload, with no loss in ROF.
Not fire fire fire fire reload.
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dog
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Post by dog on Mar 15, 2009 13:43:54 GMT -5
Or just hold down the fire button and keep double tapping the weapon switch key.
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Post by promotedpawn on Mar 16, 2009 22:52:49 GMT -5
Speaking on CoD4:
I feel that juggernaut is better in some situations, but it's dependent on a lot of factors, including what weapon you're using, what map you're on, what gametype it is, the amount of grenade spam you're facing, etc etc etc.
I play a lot in FFA, where most firefights are 1v1 or 1v1v1 with relatively large gaps (5-15 sec) in between. I typically pair it with a gun with a high rate of fire to help counteract the absence of SP on my build, usually a P90. It gets even better when a map comes up where there are more snipers than normal (creek, overgrown, countdown), and also makes their claymores pretty impotent. The sheer animal rage it inspires in some people is just an added bonus. In FFA or Cage Match, I think Juggernaut clearly wins out unless you're using a weapon that really wants SP, like an M16 or M40A3.
In team games where firefights can range anywhere from 1v1 to 9v9, SP is better except on the few weapons where it's an obvious waste of time, if just for the reason that Den pointed out above: a perk that's only useful once per firefight is useless compared to one used every time you pull the trigger when you're fighting a team instead of 1 or 2 people.
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Post by ssog on Mar 18, 2009 16:04:57 GMT -5
Fire reload fire reload fire reload, with no loss in ROF. Not fire fire fire fire reload. More like Fire - Pump - Fire - Pump - Fire - Pump - Fire - ReloadReloadReloadReload becomes Fire - Reload - Fire - Reload - Fire - Reload - Fire - Reload - Fire - Reload - Fire - Reload... SoH doesn't offer any advantage on the Trench Gun until after you've already expended the first 4 shells, and even then, the advantage is only felt if you've extended the first 4 shells, are STILL ALIVE (despite the wickedly low RoF for a CQ gun), and still have enemies nearby (meaning you couldn't just reload in peace, anyway). In my opinion, that's a pretty rare confluence of circumstances. If you had so many enemies around that you needed more than 4 shots of a gun that's typically a 1-shot kill (2 shots, tops), odds are they would have killed you off already thanks to the long time between shots. Due to the higher RoF and smaller clip, SoH is solid gold on a Double Barrell... but I think Double Tap (so you can get those 4 shots off faster), Jugg (so you're more likely to survive to the end of those 4 shots), Flak Jacket (so you can take advantage of your speed to rule objective grenade-spam gametypes), or even UAV Jammer would be better choices for the Trench Gun. JMO. |
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Post by i8 on Jun 27, 2009 2:23:24 GMT -5
i use jug on everything except shotgun i use sp on that
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Post by ntb on Jul 1, 2009 2:16:11 GMT -5
A question going back to Call of Duty 4-
Sometimes when i'ma firin' my "overpowered" M16, I get multiple juggernaut crosses throughout simultaneous (2+) bursts-
Burst 1- Cross
Burst 2- maybe the first two bullets miss or something then a cross for the last one
burst 3- sometimes I even get another cross here.
I'm pretty sure i've had up to 3 bursts then a fourth for one single kill on a juggy. I don't understand how this could happen considering the 5 second rule. Any sort of explanation or am I just losing my mind?>
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Jul 1, 2009 10:23:06 GMT -5
I think magazine size and reload time of your weapon and the ones of the enemies matters the most for juggernaut and stopping power.
I would never use it on a weapon that has a limited magazine or a horrible reload time, but if the enemies have such weapons it might be interesting to use in combination with a box magazine. Due to the low magazine capacities and long reload times in CoD5 compared to 4, its logical people use it more there.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jul 1, 2009 16:51:55 GMT -5
A question going back to Call of Duty 4- Sometimes when i'ma firin' my "overpowered" M16, I get multiple juggernaut crosses throughout simultaneous (2+) bursts- Burst 1- Cross Burst 2- maybe the first two bullets miss or something then a cross for the last one burst 3- sometimes I even get another cross here. I'm pretty sure i've had up to 3 bursts then a fourth for one single kill on a juggy. I don't understand how this could happen considering the 5 second rule. Any sort of explanation or am I just losing my mind?> If you are using SP against that player it could take 3-4 bullets. If you arent then it could take 4-5 bullets. see where I'm going here? On another note I don't believe the M16 is overpowered b/c there is no way to compensate for the random recoil pushing the shots all over the place. In a fight where the players are moving parallel to each other, but their shots are going perpendicular the player with the M16 could easily lose. |
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Den
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Post by Den on Jul 1, 2009 17:07:18 GMT -5
I don't understand how this could happen considering the 5 second rule. Any sort of explanation or am I just losing my mind?> The "five second rule" or whatever is that Juggernaut only absorbs enough damage from each shot to take one more shot overall. The player would then have to wait five seconds to recover his health so he can take an extra hit. After taking a hit, he virtually has the same health as anyone else. |
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