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Post by pooneega on Jan 2, 2012 10:32:39 GMT -5
What exactly does this do? Don't be a derp and say it increases range...
Main questions: 1) How much range does it increase shotguns by? Is it a set percentage? Or maybe even a set range? 2) Is it different for each shotgun? I would assume so, but then again I haven't tested anything for this proficiency so I'm curious. Maybe there is one shotgun that gets range increased to MW2 Masterkey ranges or something 3) Does it just increase range for minimal damage for shotguns or is there a uniform stretch of range for max/middle/minimum damage?
I know Damage is normally the best choice for most of the shotguns besides maybe the Striker and the AA-12 but these questions are more for when I'm with the Specialist package with my SPAS/Model to see how far out I can still statistically be getting OSK's at. The bros seem to have much better means of testing besides me, and I feel like this certain proficiency has been kinda overlooked, or maybe I missed the thread on it.
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Post by -3055- on Jan 2, 2012 10:56:58 GMT -5
Wait why is range a bad idea for the aa12? People always complain about its horrible range, and with exmags you get more damage and bullets anyway, so you can afford to fire more shots. Unless I'm misinformed and aa12 only gets little range advantage from range proficiency like the striker
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Post by mmacola on Jan 2, 2012 11:59:15 GMT -5
IIRC, it's 25% increase in range, where it begins to drop. Therefore, something with terrible range, as the AA-12, receive little bonus, compared to the longer effective range shotguns.
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Post by pooneega on Jan 2, 2012 13:29:51 GMT -5
3055 I was saying that most people go with Damage unless you're using the Striker and AA-12, where Range makes more sense since the guns fire fast enough to not need Damage.
Mmacola where did you get that from? Not doubting your statement just wondering what your source is.
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Post by mmacola on Jan 2, 2012 13:52:04 GMT -5
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 2, 2012 16:18:46 GMT -5
AND the min damage range by 25%
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Post by mmacola on Jan 2, 2012 17:01:48 GMT -5
AND the min damage range by 25% Not as far as I know... source?
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Post by reader on Jan 3, 2012 0:07:40 GMT -5
AND the min damage range by 25% Not as far as I know... source? The very picture you just posted shows a min damage range increase.
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Post by randomguy987 on Jan 3, 2012 7:59:39 GMT -5
Not as far as I know... source? The very picture you just posted shows a min damage range increase. It's not clear (to me, at least) whether the Range proficiency increases BOTH Max- and Min Damage Range, or ONLY Max Damage Range (with the Min range getting pushed out as a secondary effect, as in mmacola's graph). I haven't run across a definitive answer anywhere. I'll try to give this a test later today and see what happens. Since the Striker has drop-offs @ 300 and 600 units (according to the spreadsheets), this shouldn't be too hard to test using an XM25 secondary in a private match: - If a Striker w/ Range gains ~2m (75 units) before the pellets vanish (relative to the stock version w/o Range), then only Max Damage Range is being affected. - But if it gains ~4m (150 units), then both Max and Min Damage Ranges must be affected. Does that sound logical? RESULTSThe Range proficiency appears to increase total shotgun range (the range after which pellets disappear) by approximately 25%. Using the XM25 (a somewhat crude tool, but good enough for this purpose), I tested three shotguns and got similar results on all: - Striker goes from 15m --> 19m max range (+27%) - AA-12 goes from 11m --> 14m max range (+27%) - SPAS-12 goes from 17m --> 22m max range (+29%) Of course, the "true" increase is almost certainly 25% for all the shotguns and that the 27-29% numbers above are due to the XM25 not doing fractions of meters. (EDIT: Because the AA-12 has such a short range, and because the XM25 is not super-precise, I repeated the test using the distance between white crosswalk lines on Underground --> almost exactly 25% overall increase in range.) Unless I'm missing something, the clear implication seems to be that the Range proficiency affects BOTH the Max and Min Damage Ranges and not just the former.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 3, 2012 9:34:02 GMT -5
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Post by mmacola on Jan 3, 2012 9:39:27 GMT -5
I presented it as a secondary effect, being pushed away just like Randomguy987 said. I believe it does not increase both, since it has been tested range + silencers on smg's and it wasn't even past 100% range. IIRC, megaqwerty said it is 1 * 1,25 * 0,75 = 0.9375.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 3, 2012 9:43:07 GMT -5
And as a side followup...the damage/range factors on the shotguns, that produce all those cool graphs showing damage fall off at range...
...they don't match up to in-game testing. For example below, the AA12's one hit kill spot is considerably closer than what the charts say. Pretty much, ALL the shotties 'one-hit' kill spots are much closer than what the charts say.
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Post by reader on Jan 3, 2012 16:21:32 GMT -5
The very picture you just posted shows a min damage range increase. It's not clear (to me, at least) whether the Range proficiency increases BOTH Max- and Min Damage Range, or ONLY Max Damage Range (with the Min range getting pushed out as a secondary effect, as in mmacola's graph). I presented it as a secondary effect, being pushed away just like Randomguy987 said. I believe it does not increase both, since it has been tested range + silencers on smg's and it wasn't even past 100% range. IIRC, megaqwerty said it is 1 * 1,25 * 0,75 = 0.9375. ... Secondary effect? How is that so? An increase is an increase. By using your logic, I could say it's min dmg ranged that is increase and max dmg rang get pulled out as a secondary effect. So think again about what you said.
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Post by selarmor on Jan 3, 2012 17:34:54 GMT -5
It's a "secondary effect" because it doesn't increase drop off end range by 25%. Using the Range proficiency on the Striker increases the range before damage drop off begins by 25%--from 300 to 375, an increase of 75.
The damage drop off end range is also increased by 75, preserving the slope. If drop off end range also increased by 25%, Range would give the Striker a 375-750 profile, instead of 375-675.
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Post by reader on Jan 3, 2012 17:49:16 GMT -5
It's a "secondary effect" because it doesn't increase drop off end range by 25%. Using the Range proficiency on the Striker increases the range before damage drop off begins by 25%--from 300 to 375, an increase of 75. The damage drop off end range is also increased by 75, preserving the slope. If drop off end range also increased by 25%, Range would give the Striker a 375-750 profile, instead of 375-675. OK I need to be more clear, if there is no increase of min dmg range, it would be 375-600, with a sharper drop. So it does increase both.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jan 3, 2012 18:00:42 GMT -5
The question is whether Range increases the Min and Max damage distances by 25%, or if it increases the Min and Max damage distances by 25% of the max damage distance.
Can anyone provide a definitive answer on this?
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Post by mmacola on Jan 3, 2012 18:42:21 GMT -5
So it's like that.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Jan 3, 2012 20:57:07 GMT -5
It extends both. Think about it graphically. Lemme whip something up real quick if it didn't extend min damage. Bottom has only high damage extended
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Post by asasa on Jan 4, 2012 10:48:30 GMT -5
lol @ most people in this thread being very confused mmacola: That is simple math. Silencers move range before dropoff back 25%, and range increases it by 25%. Since it is multiplied by the smaller number, wala, it is still ~6.25% [25% of 25%] shorter than 100%. ] @mega: mma's new post is pretty interesting. What if the dropoff curve [line] is actually fixed, as his graph proposes? This seems worth testing. This could explain why certain shotguns seemed to benefit more -- more of their range was vested into max damage range. I cant make any graphics atm but heres what I'm saying: 0----100\\\\150----300 [Std weapon] 0----125\\\\175----325 [Max damage range only] ??[Min damage range only] (This one confused me) 0----125\\\\187.5----375 [All] 0----125\\\\175----375 [All but curve] Im guessing option 4 is the correct one... this whole thread has confused me and now I dont know what I originally thought range did ;D
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Post by mastermarth on Jan 4, 2012 11:42:08 GMT -5
It increases both.
It's painfully easy to test:
1) Start a private (or splitscreen) match with a friend (or other controller). 2) Pick an area with a long sight range, have your friend stand in one place. 3) Place yourself outside the range of the naked shotgun and keep moving closer and closer between shots until you start to do damage. 4) Move back just enough that your friend takes no more damage. 5) Switch to the same Shotgun with Range equipped. 6) You did damage.
I'm not sure if the increase is the same, but with Range you WILL do damage outside what would have been the complete drop off range of the shotgun previously.
With the SPAS12 and KSG12 (with Extended Mags), you could actually get reliable OSKs outside the normal 'dead' range too in a testing environment.
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Post by pooneega on Jan 4, 2012 12:24:12 GMT -5
It increases both. It's painfully easy to test: 1) Start a private (or splitscreen) match with a friend (or other controller). 2) Pick an area with a long sight range, have your friend stand in one place. 3) Place yourself outside the range of the naked shotgun and keep moving closer and closer between shots until you start to do damage. 4) Move back just enough that your friend takes no more damage. 5) Switch to the same Shotgun with Range equipped. 6) You did damage. I'm not sure if the increase is the same, but with Range you WILL do damage outside what would have been the complete drop off range of the shotgun previously. With the SPAS12 and KSG12 (with Extended Mags), you could actually get reliable OSKs outside the normal 'dead' range too in a testing environment. ....yes we know Range increases range. We are trying to figure out exactly how damage drop off and such is effected in range and how each gun is affected differently. I guess the best way to test this might be to aim off target so only one pellet hits at each range and see how many it takes to kill at different ranges with range on. Obviously the gun that takes the least amount of pellets to kill at max range would be the easiest to test, so I think that would be... the 1887?
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Post by mmacola on Jan 4, 2012 13:17:48 GMT -5
Hell, don't count me in for testing, but I guess it's all pretty obvious... it seems to be like a reverse silencer;
Silencers (on shotties and smgs, at least ) = 25% distance before drop off reduced. Drop off line not modified. Range = 25% distance before drop off increased. Drop off line not modified.
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Post by mastermarth on Jan 4, 2012 14:43:51 GMT -5
....yes we know Range increases range. We are trying to figure out exactly how damage drop off and such is effected in range and how each gun is affected differently. I guess the best way to test this might be to aim off target so only one pellet hits at each range and see how many it takes to kill at different ranges with range on. Obviously the gun that takes the least amount of pellets to kill at max range would be the easiest to test, so I think that would be... the 1887? The way some people were talking they weren't sure about it, so I made my post. If this is about trying to find out more detail about it, I don't see how that could easily be tested in game. It's hard to guarantee that only 1 pellet hits or that all pellets hit. If info could be extracted from the game files or a PC mod could be made to basically give Shotguns 0 spread... otherwise, someone would go crazy trying to test that.
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Post by randomguy987 on Jan 4, 2012 15:41:50 GMT -5
It increases both. It's painfully easy to test: 1) Start a private (or splitscreen) match with a friend (or other controller). 2) Pick an area with a long sight range, have your friend stand in one place. 3) Place yourself outside the range of the naked shotgun and keep moving closer and closer between shots until you start to do damage. 4) Move back just enough that your friend takes no more damage. 5) Switch to the same Shotgun with Range equipped. 6) You did damage. I'm not sure if the increase is the same, but with Range you WILL do damage outside what would have been the complete drop off range of the shotgun previously. With the SPAS12 and KSG12 (with Extended Mags), you could actually get reliable OSKs outside the normal 'dead' range too in a testing environment. ....yes we know Range increases range. We are trying to figure out exactly how damage drop off and such is effected in range and how each gun is affected differently. I guess the best way to test this might be to aim off target so only one pellet hits at each range and see how many it takes to kill at different ranges with range on. Obviously the gun that takes the least amount of pellets to kill at max range would be the easiest to test, so I think that would be... the 1887? Unless I'm totally missing something, the test I did yesterday has convinced me that Range will the increase the lengths of BOTH the "max damage range" and the "damage dropoff slope" (so that the slope becomes less steep when viewed graphically). There are 3 potential hypothetical models for how the Range proficiency works: (1) The proficiency increases "max damage range" but does not affect the total range of the shotgun. The dropoff slope becomes more steep, as in megaqwerty's hypothetical graphs. THIS IS NOT THE CASE as it's easy to observe that pellets will reach longer distances before disappearing when using the Range proficiency. (2) The proficiency increases "max damage range" but does not affect the "damage dropoff slope" except by shifting that slope to the right as a secondary effect of increasing "max damage range," as in mmacola's hypothetical graphs. If this is the case, we should see the total range (a/k/a "min damage range") increase, but by less than 25%. - For example, the Striker, with max and min damage ranges of 300 and 600 units (respectively), should see a 12.5% increase in its total range as max and min ranges shift to 375 and 675. - Similarly, the SPAS-12 should see its {400, 700} range numbers --> {500, 800}, for a 14.3% increase in total range. TESTING SHOWS THIS IS NOT THE CASE because in-game testing shows range buffs far in excess of the hypothetical numbers listed above. (3) The proficiency extends BOTH the "max damage range" and the "damage dropoff slope" by 25% so that total range is 25% longer. Graphically, the curve shifts to the right AND the dropoff slope becomes less steep. [I'd add a graph, but I'm still figuring-out OpenOffice....] - E.g., the Striker goes from {300, 600} --> {375, 750} & the SPAS goes from {400, 700} --> {500, 875}. As best I can tell, TESTING INDICATES THAT THIS IS HOW IT WORKS as the shotguns tested all get ~25% more total range. I don't see any other explanation for the results in my earlier post. It's very easy to test-out: Just start a private match with two players and have a stock SG user walk toward the other player until he gets hitmarkers, then check the range with the XM-25 (or other method of your choosing). Then repeat w/ the Range proficiency equipped. (I've been turning it around in my head and can't find any obvious problems with this method, but please let me know if you think of some flaw.) --> If Model (2) above were correct, you should see increases in the 11-17% range (depending on the individual shotgun). If Model (3) is correct, all shotguns should see increases of 25% (subject to measurement inaccuracies). * * * * * TL;DR: The Range proficiency gives shotguns 25% more distance before damage starts to drop-off AND 25% more distance before damage drops to its min value and the pellets disappear. In other words, the Range proficiency extends the total range of shotguns by 25%. Unless I'm wrong. Test it yourselves & let me know.
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Post by slaughterproof on Jan 4, 2012 19:35:44 GMT -5
Total range before pellets dissipate is boosted. Not just before dropoff but total. Randomguy987 is correct.
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Post by mmacola on Jan 4, 2012 21:17:36 GMT -5
How to effectively test it; Striker example:
300u max range, 600u pellets vanish range (also minimal damage range). ---Add Range--- If both max range and drop off line range gain a 25%, respectively then: 375u max range, 750u pellets vanish range (also minimal damage range).
If both max range and drop off line range gain a 25%, then: 375u max range, 675u pellets vanish range (also minimal damage range).
Make target step a little longer until it's minimal range is achieved.
Edited first case scenario//
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Post by randomguy987 on Jan 4, 2012 22:24:29 GMT -5
How to effectively test it; Striker example: 300u max range, 600u pellets vanish range (also minimal damage range). ---Add Range---If both max range and drop off line range gain a 25%, respectively then: 375u max range, 843.75u pellets vanish range (also minimal damage range). If both max range and drop off line range gain a 25%, then: 375u max range, 675u pellets vanish range (also minimal damage range). Make target step a little longer until it's minimal range is achieved. Not exactly: It looks like the 300 units of max damage range go up 25% to 375 units. And the 300 units where damage is dropping off to nothing also get a 25% boost to 375 units. Total range before pellets vanish [the sum of the two preceding figures] goes from 600 units to 750 units (or an overall increase of 25%). Put another way: All relevant range numbers in the spreadsheets are multiplied by 1.25. Testing between competing models/hypotheses is straightforward: When using the Range prof, do you get hitmarkers on a stationary target 0%, 12.5% or 25% further away?
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Post by mmacola on Jan 5, 2012 11:37:18 GMT -5
How to effectively test it; Striker example: 300u max range, 600u pellets vanish range (also minimal damage range). ---Add Range---If both max range and drop off line range gain a 25%, respectively then: 375u max range, 843.75u pellets vanish range (also minimal damage range). If both max range and drop off line range gain a 25%, then: 375u max range, 675u pellets vanish range (also minimal damage range). Make target step a little longer until it's minimal range is achieved. Not exactly: It looks like the 300 units of max damage range go up 25% to 375 units. And the 300 units where damage is dropping off to nothing also get a 25% boost to 375 units. Total range before pellets vanish [the sum of the two preceding figures] goes from 600 units to 750 units (or an overall increase of 25%). Put another way: All relevant range numbers in the spreadsheets are multiplied by 1.25. Testing between competing models/hypotheses is straightforward: When using the Range prof, do you get hitmarkers on a stationary target 0%, 12.5% or 25% further away? Yes yes, I see my error... gonna edit it soon. Just saw MW2 shotguns range, apparently a 50% MAX range reduced. However, since the MIN range isn't affected, it isn't a exactly 50% TOTAL range reduce. Example: MW2 Spas-12 Therefore, in my theory, shotguns get a 25% MAX range increase. However, since the MIN range isn't affected, it isn't a exactly 25% TOTAL range increase. And that's why you get different range increase for all shotguns.
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