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Post by Megaqwerty on Jul 19, 2012 18:49:58 GMT -5
The SMG thread has made a lot of progress and generated lots of interesting discussion so I'm starting another thread for another weapon class. Here's the result of the poll: Gun | Weight | Verdict | L86 | 5.60 | Definitely Neutral | MG36 | 8.91 | Definitely Buff | PKP | 9.69 | Definitely Buff | MK46 | 6.10 | Probably Neutral | M60 | 7.74 | Probably Buff |
My ideas: -Complete removal of gun kick. Recoil and/or damage will need significant adjustments if we do this. -Silencers need real, noticeable penalties on every weapon, not just one. -A fast magazine reload should have some cost that does not also render the weapon obsolete (see the current MG36). As with the SMGs, I suggest establishing different roles for each gun rather than just spewing numbers. Before the patch, the LMGs were actually very well differentiated, but unfortunately complete doo-doo compared to all other weapons. Currently: L86: The best, provided you can stomach the gun kick. MG36: Swift reload, but mediocre besides. PKP: Arguably superior recoil to the MG36, but still pales to the MK46. MK46: Second best, being much easier to use than L86. M60: Potent 2HK at an incredible cost. How should we differentiate these guns?
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 19, 2012 18:54:10 GMT -5
They just need some adjustments to damage and recoil. L86: Reduce minimum damage to 20 and remove gunkick MG36: Reduce minimum damage to 25 and reduce horizontal viewkick to 50 and -50 PKP: Reduce minimum damage to 30, increase maximum damage to 49 and remove gunkick MK46: Reduce minimum damage to 25 and remove gunkick M60E4: Increase minimum damage to 40 and reduce horizontal viewkick to 60 and -60
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cmck
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Post by cmck on Jul 19, 2012 18:58:35 GMT -5
For silencers what about instead of removing damage or range we make them increase recoil slightly? That way some of the LMGs can keep their damage static? Have some guns increase viewkick with silencers and others gunkick. Good?
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 19, 2012 19:01:18 GMT -5
That's not something IW would do and it doesn't really make sense. Silencers in this game are programmed to reduce range.
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cmck
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Post by cmck on Jul 19, 2012 19:07:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess its too much. I like the idea of static damage on some of them (PKP and MG36 mainly), but I agree that silencers should still cost something on them. MW2 kept them static, but silencers lowered the bullets to kill at all ranges which I thought was a little too much. If we keep the range model thats in place now we also have to give up static damage just so silencers can have a cost. A recoil modifier sounded like a good compromise for static damage lmgs.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Jul 19, 2012 19:27:05 GMT -5
Using the following ideas: L86: High RPM, no recoil, low damage. PKP: Low RPM, low recoil, medium damage. MG36: Clone of PKP with smaller magazine. MK46: Medium RPM, medium recoil, medium damage. M60: Lowest RPM, highest recoil, high damage. Google spreadsheet here.All guns unless noted otherwise: - Same sway as current L86.
- No gun kick. This requires some recoil tweaking to compensate.
- Magazine feds: reload times of 3.76, 3.76, and 3.00. (Reduces MG36 to match the L86).
- Belt feds: reload times of 8.68, 8.88, and 6.67. (Average of current values.)
- Swap times: 1.06 and 0.60. (Average of current values).
- Aim time of 0.35. Same as previous games. Unchanged by Thermal, increased to 0.40 with ACOG.
- Silencers reduce BTK by one at all ranges.
- Rapid Fire is a 1.33x multiplier.
L86: High RPM, no recoil, low damage. - No gun kick, but no other changes to recoil.
- 937.5 RPM
- 30 damage loud, 23 damage silenced. (Both numbers are minimum for one headshot to reduce BTK by one.)
Summary: divorced from its gun kick, the L86 is now an absolute laser with an extreme fire rate, but pays for it with minimal damage. It kills slightly slower than its present incarnation, but should be easier to use at all ranges. PKP: Low RPM, low recoil, medium damage. - 666 RPM.
- 42 damage loud, 30 damage silenced.
- Moderate recoil.
Summary: recoil should be changed to match the MW2 RPD. MG36: Clone of PKP with smaller magazine. - Magazine fed.
- 50 round magazine (75 extended)
Summary: just as the PKP is the RPD, this is the AUG HBAR. MK46: Medium RPM, medium recoil, medium damage. - 750 RPM
- 42 damage loud, 30 damage silenced.
- High recoil
Summary: MW2 L86 clone. M60: Lowest RPM, highest recoil, high damage. - 545 RPM.
- 75-42 damage, 1000-2000 range when loud.
- 42 damage when silenced.
Summary: Too many, probably rightly so, think that a 2 hit kill at all ranges would be overpowered so here’s an automatic clone of the Mk14 instead as a compromise. To manifest the buffs we want to impart, the main difference here would have to be in the recoil, ensuring that the PKP/MG36's handling is enough to justify their RPM loss versus the MK46. As a whole though, I buffed the LMG class (lower reloads, swaps, and ADS). I was unimaginative with taking so much from MW2, but really that game had a very good paradigm for LMGs. Fire rates could use some tweaking as well.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 19, 2012 19:33:22 GMT -5
Too drastic changes. Also, why clones?
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Post by Megaqwerty on Jul 19, 2012 19:35:30 GMT -5
They're keeping with the original roles of the LMGs prior to the patch where the L86 had extreme fire rate, good handling (with Thermal), and low damage while the PKP and the MK46 were on opposite sides of the spectrum in regards to RPM versus gun kick.
The only explicit clone on that list is the MG36 and it has a niche: fast reloads. This is an inverse of the P90's niche among the SMGs.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 19, 2012 19:37:04 GMT -5
But you changed way too much, IW wouldn't do that. There's also nothing wrong with the current fire rates.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Jul 19, 2012 19:40:30 GMT -5
There's also nothing wrong with the current fire rates. Sure there is: they're too similar. Ignoring the M60, they all fall in around 700-850 RPM, making them hard to differentiate.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 19, 2012 19:45:41 GMT -5
Two of your LMGs have the exact same rate of fire and another one shoots only 12% faster. Really, that's completely unnecessary.
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Jul 19, 2012 19:58:20 GMT -5
Suppressors should just re-introduce damage drop off on LMGs.
I am in favor of an M60 with 75-49 damage profile, but that's not gonna happen.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Jul 19, 2012 20:07:18 GMT -5
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Post by Morshu on Jul 19, 2012 20:53:39 GMT -5
So heres my thoughts:
L86- if its not broken don't fix it
MG36- This one is what I imagine as the LMG/AR hybrid. To emphasize this, I would give it .35 second aim speeds and 85% run speed. Reduce horizontal recoil to 65, -65 and raise recenter speed to 1600.
PKP- Increase damage to 49, get rid of gunkick on it completely. Also fix the added sway the grip gives it and increase the grip's reduction of recoil to give it the same recoil as the RPD with grip. So basically this gun's niche is shooting down air support.
MK46- This gun is almost fine, the only change I'd like to see is a reduction in gunkick.
M60- Extend it 2 hit kill range to 20m, reduce horizontal recoil to 70, -70., raise recenter speed to 1550.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 19, 2012 20:57:04 GMT -5
PKP- Increase damage to 49, significantly reduce recoil to 40,-40 horizontal and 30, 15 vertical recoil. Extremely fucking OP. No recoil.
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Post by Morshu on Jul 19, 2012 21:07:25 GMT -5
Neither does the L86 which kills in the same amount of bullets with higher RoF. PKP should be more like the RPD.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 19, 2012 21:11:11 GMT -5
The RPD doesn't have NO RECOIL.
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Post by Morshu on Jul 19, 2012 21:21:18 GMT -5
It did with the Kung Fu death grip. So, maybe make the PKP 60,-60 horizontal and 40, 15 vertical and increase the effect of the grip? I'll update my post.
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acidsnow
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Post by acidsnow on Jul 19, 2012 21:25:45 GMT -5
A silenced L86 with the Blind Eye perk, is disgustingly OP against air support. ...Dealing a whopping 61 damage to air support, it only takes 6 shots to shoot down a care package copter. UAVs take ~10, Advanced UAV ~18, Helicopter ~18, Pavelow ~40, Chopper Gunner ~50.
I think the L86 is a bit OP, it's literally better than any of the ARs; at least I haven't found a reason to use an AR instead of the L86. I think the gun's kick is balanced, but the damage needs to be reduced to 33 when silenced (so it becomes a 4 hit kill). The L86 is also the best gun to use Impact with, because the damage is so high at any range, and it has a 100round mag, and a swift reload; the gun's only fault is its slower move speed & ADS, and it's semi-annoying gun kick.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 19, 2012 21:29:48 GMT -5
It did with the Kung Fu death grip. So, maybe make the PKP 60,-60 horizontal and 40, 15 vertical and increase the effect of the grip? I'll update my post. Why not keep it the same? It already has the same viewkick as the RPD. It just also has gunkick.
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Post by MastaQ on Jul 20, 2012 4:22:52 GMT -5
A silenced L86 with the Blind Eye perk, is disgustingly OP against air support. ...Dealing a whopping 61 damage to air support, it only takes 6 shots to shoot down a care package copter. UAVs take ~10, Advanced UAV ~18, Helicopter ~18, Pavelow ~40, Chopper Gunner ~50. I think the L86 is a bit OP, it's literally better than any of the ARs; at least I haven't found a reason to use an AR instead of the L86. I think the gun's kick is balanced, but the damage needs to be reduced to 33 when silenced (so it becomes a 4 hit kill). The L86 is also the best gun to use Impact with, because the damage is so high at any range, and it has a 100round mag, and a swift reload; the gun's only fault is its slower move speed & ADS, and it's semi-annoying gun kick. The L86 is easily the best gun in the game that no one cares about. With Specialist bonus, you're almost unstoppable. Anyway, my suggestions. Remove gunkick from all LMGs. L86 does 35-25 dmg. MG36 does 40. PKP does 49. MK46 does 40-30 dmg. M60... not sure what to do with this. The ideal fix would be to change the horribad irons, but that might not be possible.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jul 20, 2012 5:09:18 GMT -5
^ > Remove gunkick from all LMGs.
Exactly. How could they apply GunKick to long range weapons? I cannot even count my deaths in long range combat vs silenced smg with RF, LOL.
Geting prone with lmg if vs sniper is the best way to see a nice headshot in killcam ... Or maybe IW thought I can strafe+prone+fire and win vs Barrett? What do they smoke there?
Whatever the rebalance of LMGs might change, without significant gunkick reduction I will have no FUN using them. Yes, L86+Kick+Silencer+Stalker is really effective close-mid range, if Blind Eye then effective ag air support additionally, with Thermal a beast, but it does not mean I have a lot of FUN using that crap; indeed less fun than with any MW2 lmg.
> M60... not sure what to do with this. The ideal fix would be to change the horribad irons, but that might not be possible.
Make it 3HK, reduce recoil, it could be usable with RDS/Holo. 2HK idea failed, imo. Or move M60 to smg slot, reduce mag to 30, movement speed 100, etc etc ....
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Post by MoopusMaximus on Jul 20, 2012 5:16:31 GMT -5
A silenced L86 with the Blind Eye perk, is disgustingly OP against air support. ...Dealing a whopping 61 damage to air support, it only takes 6 shots to shoot down a care package copter. UAVs take ~10, Advanced UAV ~18, Helicopter ~18, Pavelow ~40, Chopper Gunner ~50. I think the L86 is a bit OP, it's literally better than any of the ARs; at least I haven't found a reason to use an AR instead of the L86. I think the gun's kick is balanced, but the damage needs to be reduced to 33 when silenced (so it becomes a 4 hit kill). The L86 is also the best gun to use Impact with, because the damage is so high at any range, and it has a 100round mag, and a swift reload; the gun's only fault is its slower move speed & ADS, and it's semi-annoying gun kick. The L86 is easily the best gun in the game that no one cares about. With Specialist bonus, you're almost unstoppable. Anyway, my suggestions. Remove gunkick from all LMGs. L86 does 35-25 dmg. MG36 does 40. PKP does 49. MK46 does 40-30 dmg. M60... not sure what to do with this. The ideal fix would be to change the horribad irons, but that might not be possible. I can agree to this. GunKick is an annoyance, and with it, they will always be inferior to all others.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 20, 2012 7:09:05 GMT -5
Guns that have almost no gunkick M60, MG36
My suggestions:
L86 38-34 MG36 40 > Decrease horizontal viewkick to -70 70 (will test it) PKP 45 > Headshots help (if you used this gun you know you get tons of headshots); no more weird idle sway with grip MK46 40-36 > Reduce vertical gunkick by 33% M60 50-40 (More penetration, more Anti-Air support damage)
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 20, 2012 7:24:18 GMT -5
Silencers really need to have a disadvantage on LMGs.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 20, 2012 7:38:16 GMT -5
Silencers really need to have a disadvantage on LMGs. Ok then: L86 38-34 (1000-1400) MG36 42-40 (1000-1200)> Decrease horizontal viewkick to -70 70 (will test it) PKP 49-40 (1000-1900)> Headshots help (if you used this gun you know you get tons of headshots); no more weird idle sway with grip MK46 40-36 (1200-1600) > Reduce vertical gunkick by 33% M60 50-40 (700-1200) (More penetration, more Anti-Air support damage) Silencers on all full autos make their ranges 50% smaller
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 20, 2012 7:42:00 GMT -5
Then there's no reason to use the M60. It's only better at close range (and only if you have perfect accuracy) and you shouldn't even be using an LMG at close range.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 20, 2012 7:44:06 GMT -5
Then there's no reason to use the M60. It's only better at close range (and only if you have perfect accuracy) and you shouldn't even be using an LMG at close range. Then you completely misunderstand the M60 role.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 20, 2012 7:48:11 GMT -5
Then there's no reason to use the M60. It's only better at close range (and only if you have perfect accuracy) and you shouldn't even be using an LMG at close range. Then you completely misunderstand the M60 role. What role? Penetration is irrelevant and destroying air support would be much faster with the PKP. Also, you still need the same amount of shots to kill even when using a silencer.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 20, 2012 7:50:31 GMT -5
Then you completely misunderstand the M60 role. What role? Penetration is irrelevant and destroying air support would be much faster with the PKP. Also, you still need the same amount of shots to kill even when using a silencer. Except two at SPAS-12 range?
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