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Post by MoopusMaximus on Jul 21, 2012 7:23:38 GMT -5
I hate to be the guy that does it, but we need a general consensus of how we want shotguns balanced.
Personally, I think shotguns, save the Striker and USAS, all need major buffs.
I agree with Brick that we need to two-pellet kills with Damage on the manual-actions (that includes the Masterkey).
Any one else have ideas?
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cmck
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Post by cmck on Jul 21, 2012 7:31:38 GMT -5
I think we had this debate a few months ago on our giant shotgun thread thats still kicking. I'd just ask brick to post exactly what he wants. He's spent enough time campaigning for it that it should be fair and he's kind of earned it ten times over already.
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Post by MoopusMaximus on Jul 21, 2012 7:37:08 GMT -5
I think we had this debate a few months ago on our giant shotgun thread thats still kicking. I'd just ask brick to post exactly what he wants. He's spent enough time campaigning for it that it should be fair and he's kind of earned it ten times over already. I agree. Brick is the most dedicated person here, in my opinion. Works his heart out for those Shotties *Tear*.
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Jul 21, 2012 7:48:33 GMT -5
Like other balance threads, before people start spamming ideas like crazy, we need to set out a rough guide as to what each shotgun should be like so we can compromise ideas more effectively.
USAS 12: Fine as is. KSG 12: Very low range, but consistent 1 shot kills. SPAS-12: Longest range, but 2-3 shots required at range. AA-12: Largest spread due to full-auto, but still 1-2 shot ability up close. Striker: Fine as is. Possibly lower damage at range. Model 1887: Balance of range and consistent 1 shot kills. (Hybrid of KSG and SPAS) Masterkey: 1 shot kills up close, quickly dropping off to multiple shots required at it's longer range.
I think that's how each one should fair up against the rest, but feedback is appreciated.
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Post by quickbuck on Jul 21, 2012 8:55:35 GMT -5
Also:
USAS sprint glitch on all shotguns! Certainly all the manual actions and the AA12. I could live without it on the striker.
I get so annoyed that I feel compelled to use the USAS for objective modes, even when I don't want to.
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Post by MoopusMaximus on Jul 21, 2012 11:05:23 GMT -5
I think we had this debate a few months ago on our giant shotgun thread thats still kicking. I'd just ask brick to post exactly what he wants. He's spent enough time campaigning for it that it should be fair and he's kind of earned it ten times over already. Yeah pretty much, the only reason we didn't really make this thread was because of the 30 page monstrosity indicating that the ideas were pretty covered. There's no where in that thread where I can find the definite post-patch shotgun stats. I made this so we can have solid understanding of what we want. That 'monstrosity' is a jumbled, cluttered thread.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 21, 2012 11:42:06 GMT -5
Masterkey: Static 5 Spread, 35-15 damage, 200-450 range
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Post by linkinito on Jul 21, 2012 11:45:45 GMT -5
AA-12: 20-5 damage, 250-750 Range
AA-12 range is just shit.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 21, 2012 13:28:11 GMT -5
So, if this is what they will do, shotguns need to be much more powerful. USAS-12: Increase minimum damage to 10 KSG-12: Increase rate of fire to 100 RPM and increase pellet count to 12 SPAS-12: Increase rate of fire to 80 RPM and increase pellet count to 12 AA-12: Reduce rate of fire to 300 RPM, increase damage to 25-10 and double starting ammo Striker: Reduce rate of fire to 300 RPM and increase pellet count to 8 Model 1887: Increase pellet count to 12 Some explanations: USAS-12: Horrible minimum damage. It should at least be as powerful as shotguns in CoD4 and Black Ops. KSG-12: Needs more consistency and a higher rate of fire, so you can win against multiple enemies. SPAS-12: Needs more consistency. Rate of fire is lower than the KSG-12, since it has better range. AA-12: Needs more damage and ammo. Reduced rate of fire, so it's not too easy to use. Striker: It's currently the best shotgun, but still too bad compared to most other weapons. Model 1887: Extremely low rate of fire, no attachments, high spread, but the best damage.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Jul 21, 2012 14:12:57 GMT -5
So, if this is what they will do, shotguns need to be much more powerful. USAS-12: Increase minimum damage to 10 KSG-12: Increase rate of fire to 100 RPM and increase pellet count to 12 SPAS-12: Increase rate of fire to 80 RPM and increase pellet count to 12 AA-12: Reduce rate of fire to 300 RPM, increase damage to 25-10 and double starting ammo Striker: Reduce rate of fire to 300 RPM and increase pellet count to 8 Model 1887: Increase pellet count to 12 Some explanations: USAS-12: Horrible minimum damage. It should at least be as powerful as shotguns in CoD4 and Black Ops. KSG-12: Needs more consistency and a higher rate of fire, so you can win against multiple enemies. SPAS-12: Needs more consistency. Rate of fire is lower than the KSG-12, since it has better range. AA-12: Needs more damage and ammo. Reduced rate of fire, so it's not too easy to use. Striker: It's currently the best shotgun, but still too bad compared to most other weapons. Model 1887: Extremely low rate of fire, no attachments, high spread, but the best damage. No foxtrotting way IW is doing this imho. If that wasn't a problem then i agree with any and all Shotgun Buffs. Seriously they made the starting proficiencies & attachmens for shotguns Kick, Silenced and Red dot sight with the Damage & Range proficiency being at the mid to high 20's, WTF.
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Post by bobo on Jul 21, 2012 20:15:07 GMT -5
I'd be interested to see how a single pellet pattern would help the consistency of shotties.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Jul 21, 2012 20:42:17 GMT -5
I'd be interested to see how a single pellet pattern would help the consistency of shotties. Mark said he wanted to do that for the next game. I am tyrin to ge them to go another way that will remove all the randomness and poor spread coverage issues of the past.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 21, 2012 20:43:22 GMT -5
I'd be interested to see how a single pellet pattern would help the consistency of shotties. Reducing spread would do the same thing.
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Post by bobo on Jul 21, 2012 20:55:14 GMT -5
I'd be interested to see how a single pellet pattern would help the consistency of shotties. Mark said he wanted to do that for the next game. I am tyrin to ge them to go another way that will remove all the randomness and poor spread coverage issues of the past. Interesting that they may go that way. What's your other way? I think this approach has merit, but don't think it'd be exactly the same effect. You could still get pellets bunched up in one corner. And if you get the spread too tight, shots begin to get really hard to hit. I forgot to mention that I would like to see slight ADS spread reduction. Hasn't it been confirmed the spread actually goes bigger a bit now when ADS'd?
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 21, 2012 21:12:57 GMT -5
I forgot to mention that I would like to see slight ADS spread reduction. Hasn't it been confirmed the spread actually goes bigger a bit now when ADS'd? Yes, spread is worse when ADS, except when using the Model 1887 and AA-12. I guess the ADS spread is the same as in CoD4 (5.5), so using Steady Aim is always better than ADS.
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Jul 21, 2012 21:37:08 GMT -5
Let us not waste any time and just send Brick's suggestions in.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jul 21, 2012 21:39:38 GMT -5
nerf everything bar AA-12
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 21, 2012 21:47:13 GMT -5
I forgot to mention that I would like to see slight ADS spread reduction. Hasn't it been confirmed the spread actually goes bigger a bit now when ADS'd? Yes, spread is worse when ADS, except when using the Model 1887 and AA-12. I guess the ADS spread is the same as in CoD4 (5.5), so using Steady Aim is always better than ADS. Always looked the same to me (in MW3). Will test later then
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Post by 8bitasplode on Jul 21, 2012 22:42:01 GMT -5
I thought we had already figured out what was needed: KSG: (9 pellets) 40-15 (3-7 pellet kill) SPAS-12: (8 pellets) 40-14 (3-8 pellet kill) Model 1887: (8 pellets) 40-20 (3-5 pellet kill) USAS-12: (9 pellets) 25-9 (4-11 pellet kill) AA-12: (8 pellets) 20-8 (5-13 pellet kill) and increase reserve ammo to 8+24 instead of 8+8 Striker: No changes needed. This shotgun still destroys people even after it got reduced to 6 pellets.
An interesting suggestion to give them would be to make the DAMAGE proficiency decrease the minimum damage value on shotguns. That would help give more incentive to use the range proficiency on non-USAS shotguns.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Jul 21, 2012 22:54:03 GMT -5
What I would like to see is the removal of pellets altogether. I would have pellet looking things come out of the gun for effect but what it would actually do would have no single projectiles to it.
What I would like to be looked into is a way to make shotguns damage based off of the area of the target in relation to the spread. Basically instead of a single hit scans it sends out a cone that fills the particular spread size of the shotgun at any range, from a single point at the barrel to its widest point at the end of shotgun range. Then the target's hitbox area is calculated inside of that cone and damage is dealt based on how big the hitbox is inside the spread. Obviously the further away the target is the less area it will take up in the hitbox. But then of course there is one problem to this. Prone/side facing enemies would be really hard to kill with this model so I would include "accuracy multipliers" that measure how close to center the torso and head hitbox of the target was to the center of the spread and multiply the damage done if the accuracy rating was high. This way if you are aiming at a prone/side facing enemy as long as your aim was close to center the damage dealt would be good enough for a kill. The current hitscans already measure the range they travel so that is not the problem. The problem is I don't know if they can implament a system with this shape of hitscan that can measure a target's hitbox area inside the spread and relation to center of the cone fast enough to be useful in online play. Maybe not with this current gen tech but the next gen consoles will.
This system eliminates any problems that come from randomized spread and poor spread coverage due to too few pellets populating the shotgun's spread. I think this would see a real improvement in consistency due to these factors. I just started on this idea a little bit ago and I have not gotten a chance to tell mark about it yet. I will probably wait until after the buffs are done to say anything about this.
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Jul 22, 2012 0:07:13 GMT -5
This sounds like it would only work well, and I mean well if and only if anti lag is coded properly. Try pitching the idea to someone at treyarc who listens and see what they have to say about it. I do not trust IW with something like this.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jul 22, 2012 0:25:08 GMT -5
Where did you get that idea?
The only thing I can think of would be Glaunchers, and they handled them quite well in BO. I suppose you could say sniping -- thats fair. But they DID fix it. Where's the patch for how easy MW3 is?
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cmck
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Post by cmck on Jul 22, 2012 0:47:43 GMT -5
@ asasa Um, we're making right now? If you want something done right submit your own balance ideas to the devs right.
Are we even going to get our ideas looked at though and will the devs consider them? It seems like a long shot.
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cmck
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Post by cmck on Jul 22, 2012 0:53:16 GMT -5
I was kind of banking on brick sending mark the giant finished wall of text with links to google spreadsheets and explanations for all of the decisions with annotations to testing videos for recoil and the original threads the ideas were presented. It looks official as fuck in my imagination.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Jul 22, 2012 5:04:00 GMT -5
Holy shit if only. I already have a spreadsheet up with currently my suggested changes. If we can reach consensus on some more ideas, I'd be willing to update with the changes the community agrees upon. I will say that Google Docs is kind of limited compared to Excel, I can do a lot more with an Excel sheet. Here is the current spreadsheet I have: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ao6e6LL8C6EkdDU5cFhxQ2FnY2ZHXzUzT0JTX0hOVlE Kudos to Selarmor for making the original
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jul 22, 2012 8:44:27 GMT -5
It's a cruel world
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jul 22, 2012 9:56:34 GMT -5
No you misunderstand Medic. I was being serious. I really do miss Commando.
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Post by Morshu on Jul 22, 2012 13:33:09 GMT -5
I personally miss OMA. It was useful for switching to another perk when the time was suitable, like going hardline when you were two kill away from a streak. All they needed to do to fix it was make it not refill your Skill Cannons. Also, I miss DC pro which made your killstreaks more powerful. We need some killstreak enhancing perks.
Anyway about shawtguns, just do brick's suggestions. I agree with him completely.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Jul 22, 2012 15:30:50 GMT -5
This sounds like it would only work well, and I mean well if and only if anti lag is coded properly. Try pitching the idea to someone at treyarc who listens and see what they have to say about it. I do not trust IW with something like this. Its way to late for black ops 2 but IW's next title might be possible. I am going to bring it up with mark next time and see how far along in development they are with the next game.
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Jul 22, 2012 16:53:17 GMT -5
Its way to late for black ops 2 but IW's next title might be possible. I am going to bring it up with mark next time and see how far along in development they are with the next game. Getting in touch with developers mid-way through production would be so awesome for Den and his bros here, but very unlikely. I get why they don't have an open, public beta because it would reveal too much before release - but surely allowing some COD veterans and Den's bros access early would be really beneficial to the game. I dunno; I'm just thinking out loud
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