laxman15
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Post by laxman15 on Dec 27, 2012 23:10:18 GMT -5
Hey,
So I wanted to discuss multipliers for the various weapon classes. Currently we see that Treyarch has reduced head multipliers across the board for all weapon types. I'm not exactly sure what their reasoning behind this was. Personally, I always aim for the head,neck and chest; however with the lowered 1.2 multipliers, it makes headshots useless for 40 damage weapons/ranges.
Regarding LMGs, only the MK and LSAT receive a 1.2 multiplier (the HAMR receives no multiplier as read from the brady guides). This multiplier helps only with the MK at the 49 damage and 30 at range turning it into a 2-3 kill. With the LSAT it only helps once it's damage drops to 33.
For AR's, the 1.2 has no effect on the 40 damage weapons and only comes into play when their damage drops to 33. It would have been nice to see the semi-autos receive a 1.4 to the head, thus making far range still a two shot kill to the head, especially for the SMR. Nonetheless, I find it odd to have a 937rpm Type 25 receives a 1.1x while both the HAMR and LSW receive no multiplier at all.
For SMG's, they all receive a 1.1x bar the EVO. Once again this effects the 33 damage range, but becomes useless at 40, 22 and 18 damage ranges.
For pistols, they receive a 1.4x bar the Kap40 and B23R. The 45 and Five-Seven receive the biggest benefit especially at the 24 and 19 damage ranges as well as at the 45 region where you need on headshot and one body shot.
Sniper rifles have their own multipliers giving the osk (not sure what they are) and the shotguns receive no multiplier.
(*Note: This assumes the enemy is at full health. I am aware of the other discussion regarding tossing tacticals for 1 point of damage and that tactic. Also data is according to Symthic's weapons chart.)
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I also wanted to discuss an idea of implementing multipliers that decrease damage and encourage aiming. Many can attest to the hip-spraying nature of the the smg's, and when combined with both the laser and dexterity can be quite the match up (this doesn't even include players who dropshot). I think it would interesting to add a .7x multiplier to the limbs for smg's, .75x for AR's (except the FAL and SMR semi-auto) and no penalty (1x) for lmg's and pistols (lmg's already have high enough hip spread). This would drastically penalize smg and AR users who rely on spraying and/or dropshoting by encouraging them to aim at the head/chest/torso. Actually for LMG's I would even give them a 1.2 (maybe 1.4?) to the chest due to their "high damage/power" role (this would turn the MK into an almost M60, almost).
So what do you guys think? What are thoughts on multipliers and "negative" multipliers? Discuss.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 27, 2012 23:30:27 GMT -5
I like what they did and wish they would have made headshot multis only matter if more than 1 shot was a headshot.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Dec 27, 2012 23:37:54 GMT -5
Big multipliers just add variance to the game, especially in such a mess of a connection environment as CoD. I'd be fine if headshot multiplier disappeared altogether. There is too much randomness involved with recoil already; random chest shots from lucky viewkick etc on top of headshots would be a definite step in the wrong direction.
Consistency > Variance
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Post by Marvel4 on Dec 27, 2012 23:39:25 GMT -5
(the HAMR receives no multiplier as read from the brady guides) Do you have the guide? This is not true, the HAMR has a head mutliplier of 1.2.
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Post by MastaQ on Dec 27, 2012 23:40:02 GMT -5
Big multipliers just add variance to the game, especially in such a mess of a connection environment as CoD. I'd be fine if headshot multiplier disappeared altogether. There is too much randomness involved with recoil already; random chest shots from lucky viewkick etc on top of headshots would be a definite step in the wrong direction. Consistency > Variance Couldn't have said it better myself.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 27, 2012 23:42:53 GMT -5
Big multipliers just add variance to the game, especially in such a mess of a connection environment as CoD. I'd be fine if headshot multiplier disappeared altogether. There is too much randomness involved with recoil already; random chest shots from lucky viewkick etc on top of headshots would be a definite step in the wrong direction. Consistency > Variance
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laxman15
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Post by laxman15 on Dec 27, 2012 23:53:30 GMT -5
(the HAMR receives no multiplier as read from the brady guides) Do you have the guide? This is not true, the HAMR has a head mutliplier of 1.2. No, however I read through the lmg part of the guide while I was at Target and the two important things I took away from it were 1. that the HAMR receives no HS multiplier and 2. apparently the grip helps most on high recoil weapons, "such as the HAMR". This is what I read from the guide, so they may have patched it and gave a multiplier. Maybe someone could test this out again?
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 27, 2012 23:58:10 GMT -5
Based off of BO1, low recoil guns got +100 and high recoil ones got +200... I think?
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laxman15
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Post by laxman15 on Dec 28, 2012 0:03:53 GMT -5
Big multipliers just add variance to the game, especially in such a mess of a connection environment as CoD. I'd be fine if headshot multiplier disappeared altogether. There is too much randomness involved with recoil already; random chest shots from lucky viewkick etc on top of headshots would be a definite step in the wrong direction. Consistency > Variance My thought process was intended as another way to differentiate between the weapon classes, as well as penalize spraying from the hip. I can see your point in trying to remove randomness by potential flinch-to-headshot etc. What do you think would be some suggestions to better accomplish this in a post-stopping power game? (Not intended to sound snarky, I really would like to hear thoughts on class differentiation). When not discussing and taking into account of connection issues, I personally feel that accuracy should be rewarded.
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laxman15
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Post by laxman15 on Dec 28, 2012 0:08:49 GMT -5
marvel's tested headshot multipliers already. it probably mentions the grip thing just because common sense would tell you that grip helps on high recoil guns Yeah, I realize the "common sense" thing regarding the grip. That was just one of the things that stuck out to me when I was reading the guide, it specifically mentioned the HAMR and no other weapon (like the scar) so I though that was interesting. Both that and also the HS multiplier on the HAMR. So I'm wondering if it was patched prior to release, since the guides are presumably written so far in advance. Marvel could I ask you how you tested for multipliers?
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Post by thegentleman on Dec 28, 2012 0:53:18 GMT -5
I'm fine with the tiny multipliers, but I strongly dislike the fact that all of the weapon camos are tied to headshots.
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Post by kirbyderby on Dec 28, 2012 0:59:52 GMT -5
I'm fine with the tiny multipliers, but I strongly dislike the fact that all of the weapon camos are tied to headshots. Well, except for shotguns and sniper rifles and launchers and specials. On the other hand, you have to get headshots with the Executioner, so I think it balances out pretty well.
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Post by bm01 on Dec 28, 2012 5:03:47 GMT -5
Big multipliers just add variance to the game, especially in such a mess of a connection environment as CoD. I'd be fine if headshot multiplier disappeared altogether. There is too much randomness involved with recoil already; random chest shots from lucky viewkick etc on top of headshots would be a definite step in the wrong direction. Consistency > Variance This, but headshot are now pretty much useless. I think it would be better if the multiplier was bigger but only applied when aiming (i.e. not when hip firing).
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Robospy
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Post by Robospy on Dec 28, 2012 5:13:08 GMT -5
They all need bigger headshot multipliers, right now headshots are just luck, but if you up the multiplier, it adds skill to the shooting mechanics and rewards better players. HS multiplier should be about 2.1x IMO.
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Post by Ishbane on Dec 28, 2012 6:56:23 GMT -5
They all need bigger headshot multipliers, right now headshots are just luck, but if you up the multiplier, it adds skill to the shooting mechanics and rewards better players. HS multiplier should be about 2.1x IMO. Wat. Headshots wouldn't be any less lucky with a higher multiplier. While it would reward better players, it would also grant sprayers easy kills now and then. That's why the kap-40's and beretta's multipliers are gone now.
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Dec 28, 2012 9:26:01 GMT -5
I'm jumping on this band-wagon too. Also, I'd be more than happy for HS multipliers to go. It's just another one of those stupid things that play more to luck than skill.
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malgato
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Post by malgato on Dec 28, 2012 10:30:39 GMT -5
Variance wins. CoD is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get.
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Dec 28, 2012 10:49:24 GMT -5
Variance wins. CoD is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get. +1 for the Forrest Gump reference. -2 for thinking that COD needs more random-aspects to it.
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toysrme
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Post by toysrme on Dec 28, 2012 14:01:36 GMT -5
variance is good when it is a CHOICE you make in a loadout, NOT during actual gameplay.
the new headshot multipliers suck ass.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 28, 2012 17:01:18 GMT -5
The value of the multiplier isn't important in of itself, but rather how it interacts with the damage values.
Example: Low damage SMG 1.1x Headshot Multplier. 33, 24, and 19 damage.
Same bullets to kill as the MP7, Vector et. al, but all headshots will still reduce BTK at range.
The reason why Treyarch reduced the multiplier should be obvious. Headshots are the result of two things: luck and skill. The community is bad and overwhelmingly obtains headshots as product of the former factor, not the latter.
However, the current design is bad.
A single headshot can be ascribed to luck. Five consecutive headshots across the map with an SMG cannot and players should be rewarded for their efforts.
Additionally, in some combat scenarios, headshots are extremely favored, such as when attacking head glitchers and I would argue that the superior damage is a just reward against such a tactic.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Dec 28, 2012 17:10:14 GMT -5
There are ways of rewarding skill that don't also randomly reward bad players as well (static recoil values, extremely small hipfire spreads,etc). Headshot multipliers that only triggered if the shooter is ADS and undamaged would be better than what we have now, but that's a level of nuance that probably has no place in a game with a community like CoD.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 28, 2012 17:19:58 GMT -5
To reiterate, a bad player would be hard pressed to obtain, purposefully or not, five headshots with a SMG across the map in such a way that reduces TTK (i.e. obtaining the kill in less time than by aiming for center mass).
And of course, skilled players like yourself would make no attempt to do so because you're aware that there is no reward in it.
Another reason why the headshot multiplier is lower: damage values overall are lower now.
Low damage values benefit more from a moderate multiplier than a low one versus high damages due to the exponential damage requirement on bullets to kill.
That is, the damage difference between a 6 and 5 hit kill is at most 7 (24-17). Between 4 and 5, 9 points. Between 3 and 4, 16. Between 2 and 3, 50 points.
With a 1.4x multiplier, the 6 hit kill weapons would be able to dramatically reduce BTK via headshots, which would reward luck too much.
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Dec 28, 2012 17:47:02 GMT -5
That is, the damage difference between a 6 and 5 hit kill is at most 7 (24-17). Between 4 and 5, 9 points. Between 3 and 4, 16. Between 2 and 3, 50 points. I think I understand what you're saying, but I think you used inconsistent values. Eg, in your 5-6HK example you used the highest 5HK value and the lowest 6HK value. Following that pattern, you didn't use that for the other 4-5HK, 3-4HK, etc values. Hopefully you see what I mean. And also: just sayin'.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 28, 2012 18:47:31 GMT -5
You are correct. I was exploiting math for dramatic effect, but the point still stands.
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laxman15
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Post by laxman15 on Dec 28, 2012 23:53:12 GMT -5
**Update**
So I just tested out the HAMR in a private match. Two head shots plus four tactical grenades (flash and stun) yielded a death ((2*40*1.2)+(4*1)=100). So I would guess that they patched the HAMR prior to release.
Also, does any one have any comments/thoughts regarding "negative" multipliers (i.e. .7x, .75x to the limbs) to penalize hip-fire spraying and/or dropshotting?
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Dec 29, 2012 1:31:27 GMT -5
It still adds variance. Why would you want to punish dropshots and hipfire anyway? Nothing inherently wrong with them. The randomness of hipfire is the only annoying thing about it, and taking away the headshot lottery would go a long way toward making it less of a problem.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 29, 2012 2:55:20 GMT -5
Also, there are times where you need to shoot hands and feet. If full auto guns took 5 shots to kill minimum, then extra multipliers work. But not with most kills being in 3-4 accurate shots.
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Post by omgdiddy on Dec 29, 2012 3:05:19 GMT -5
Lowering the headshot multipliers only helps head glitchers.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 29, 2012 16:26:31 GMT -5
Yeah, and people said I was stupid a long while back saying that headshot multis need to go...
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Dec 29, 2012 16:30:04 GMT -5
Nerf flinch!
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