Usagi
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Post by Usagi on Jul 2, 2013 10:09:24 GMT -5
I think the pistols are fantastic sans the Executioner. If they just removed the patented Treyarch Anti-Macro Technology™ then they would be perfect. I agree with Mousey about needing another CoD4 Deagle. While the TAC-45 is functionally very similar, it just doesn't have the badass feel of a huge heavy chunk of chrome.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jul 2, 2013 10:58:47 GMT -5
Pistols are fine. They're perfect. No more MW style machine pistols outclassing primaries. Well considering they cost the same as a primary(1pt) as well as having have to use a wildcard for a 2nd attachment and an inability to be paired w/ a launcher shouldn't they logically be better than primaries due to a larger potential opportunity cost?
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Post by brutalonslaught on Jul 2, 2013 15:53:51 GMT -5
What's wrong with the executioner? Nothing says I just bent you over, pulled down your trousers and fucked you in the ass quite like it.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 2, 2013 16:37:02 GMT -5
Pistols are fine. They're perfect. No more MW style machine pistols outclassing primaries. Well considering they cost the same as a primary(1pt) as well as having have to use a wildcard for a 2nd attachment and an inability to be paired w/ a launcher shouldn't they logically be better than primaries due to a larger potential opportunity cost? No, because they are not designed to be the primary weapon of the class. They are designed to be a secondary option, to be complimentary to the rest of the class. They are a short range weapon to switch to when you have a Primary unsuited for close range combat, a weapon you can quickly swap to when you don't have time to reload, something for when you run out of ammo, etc. They do not need to be balanced against primaries, they need to be balanced against the other options for a secondary - using a special/launcher, using Overkill, or forgoing a secondary completely. - The pistols are clearly better than the specials.
- Whether you'd prefer a launcher or a pistol is more of a personal preference than a balance issue.
- You can't Overkill and actually have a secondary for one point. At two points, you could have Overkill and a weapon with no attachments, or a pistol with an attachment. With the spread on the shotguns and the difference in swap times, you're likely better off with dual wield pistols or a pistol with another attachment. Overkill can have value, but you really have to build a class around it.
- The only place pistols could be considered outclassed is against not using a secondary at all. This allows you to get extended sprint with the knife out, pick up weapons on the ground more quickly, and save a CaC point.
I'd say if anything, they should give the pistols the same extended sprint the combat knife gets.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Jul 2, 2013 16:47:22 GMT -5
I was speaking purely subjectively.
I know very well the pistols have their niche however the niche they posses is too small for my liking.
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Post by brokenpos on Jul 3, 2013 4:01:50 GMT -5
B23r still shits on anything inside its 3 hit kill range. Ext mags works really well. Helps my m8a1 out a lot due to slow reload high rpm high spray ability and bad qqc on that gun.
Tac is fun but overall less effective. 57 is a gimmick for anyone that doesn't hit 600+ rpm. Kap got overnerfed but can still do well in buildings or hard points. Definitely needs ext mags though. Still a better shotgun than the executioner.
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Post by -3055- on Jul 3, 2013 20:14:57 GMT -5
I would like the b23r but I don't like that terrible aim assist range. TAC-45 is probably the best pistol overall. 57 only if you have an exceptional trigger finger.
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Post by citrus on Jul 3, 2013 21:11:47 GMT -5
To actually achieve a faster TTK with the Five-seveN at max firecap from 101 to 400 inches, you'd have to shoot the TAC45 below 360 RPM. Needless to say, that is fucking slow.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 21:14:55 GMT -5
I always liked using the five-seven my long range weapon if I ever ran a shotgun class. It's especially useful when there is a sniper in a window from very far away. No recoil makes it ideal for those situations.
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Post by -3055- on Jul 5, 2013 13:57:28 GMT -5
400 inches is not an impressive range at all. Don't forget the five seven has better everything else, especially visual gunkick.
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b0xr
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[2.0+ KD, 2.0+ WL, ~350 SPM] Stats mean nothing. GLHF :)
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Post by b0xr on Jul 10, 2013 23:57:23 GMT -5
Five-seveN is in my top 5 most used weapons and I think it's maybe a little too powerful, but I'm not going to complain because it's really fun I like the style of the Tac45, but it's recoil, short range, and small clip make it pretty substandard imo. The B23R... meh. Only started using Kap-40 recently and it's quite good. I use it if I want a small mobile gun, but I'm also feeling lazy and just want full auto heat. Then finally we have the Executioner. This one is tricky to use correctly, but if you stay in tight areas, possibly with Shield and fast hands, then this pistol is a great secondary that can dominate close range. Long barrel and/or fast mags recommended.
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pwn3d
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Post by pwn3d on Jul 11, 2013 2:26:04 GMT -5
I miss a long range pistol. The best secondary for long range kills is somehow the kap-40. A semi pistol that needs 5 shots to kill is just useless. When I have a shotgun I would like to have a secondary that can fight back on long ranges. A secondary Sniper pistol would be nice, like a Taurus Raging Bull (a big revolver) with a scope on it. Damage of SVU (maybe no head 1shot) with slightly lower ROF, 5shot mag, high sway.
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b0xr
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[2.0+ KD, 2.0+ WL, ~350 SPM] Stats mean nothing. GLHF :)
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Post by b0xr on Jul 11, 2013 8:21:52 GMT -5
I miss a long range pistol. The best secondary for long range kills is somehow the kap-40. A semi pistol that needs 5 shots to kill is just useless. When I have a shotgun I would like to have a secondary that can fight back on long ranges. A secondary Sniper pistol would be nice, like a Taurus Raging Bull (a big revolver) with a scope on it. Damage of SVU (maybe no head 1shot) with slightly lower ROF, 5shot mag, high sway. 57
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Jul 11, 2013 11:00:02 GMT -5
Agreed. Even though I like the B23R when it comes to short range dominance KAP40 all the way.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2013 16:24:18 GMT -5
if the five seven is the best choice for a long range pistol then they dont exist. You guys get too hung up over stats instead of thinking about actual ingame performance. The Five Seven is great over long range because of its low-non existent recoil. I usually get 10-15 long shots medals a match when I run it as a primary.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Jul 11, 2013 17:08:38 GMT -5
The five seven is a wonderful spam fest for beating AR users in their own range (I can hit the firecap if I wanted to). The B23R loses me some long gunfights with its wonky recoil. The KAP is insane at close range (you wouldn't believe how many triples one clip gets me), but needs burst fire if you want to fight at AR range. The Five seven has always yielded me more AR range kills and is the only pistol I am comfortable making myself go "pistols only" with. It still maintains that nifty 2HK range as well..and that comes up alot more than people realize.
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b0xr
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[2.0+ KD, 2.0+ WL, ~350 SPM] Stats mean nothing. GLHF :)
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Post by b0xr on Jul 11, 2013 21:35:31 GMT -5
I have actually used the Five-seveN a lot and compared to the other pistols it seems much more accurate. I suspect it has less view kick than the others. I find it very easy to get fairly long range kills with it. I know looking at the recoil plots it seems pretty bad, but in my experience the recoil plots for the Five-seveN make it look more inaccurate than it really performs in game. I know, we're all about stats and not feels or seems likes. But hey, I've got tons of kills with it and it definitely feels very accurate.
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Jul 11, 2013 23:37:25 GMT -5
KAP40 Master Race
I'll use my primary for long range tyvm
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pwn3d
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Post by pwn3d on Jul 12, 2013 2:06:13 GMT -5
Maybe it's possible do hit good with FiveSeven on console (don't know how long aim assist is), but on PC it's pretty useless. You need already 5 shots at 977 range (~25m) and even 6! at 1400, hitting so much bullets with a semi auto gun takes forever to kill. Kap-40 does the job better, just shoot full auto with 937rpm killing faster than five-seven could at the firecap. Kap-40 ranges for 5 and 6 shot are not a lot lower than five-seven
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2013 1:09:50 GMT -5
KAP40 Master Race I'll use my primary for long range tyvm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I don't get the people that think the Kap40 nerf from a couple patches ago was too much. On PC the gun is still fucking ridiculous, and is still arguably the best SMG in the game.
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pwn3d
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Post by pwn3d on Jul 13, 2013 1:58:16 GMT -5
The Kap-40 nerf did only nerf it mid-range, since the 3shot range got reduced, but there is no difference in 5 and 6 shot range where it is still a 937rpm gun, killing as fast or faster than most smgs except skorpion, but skorpion kicks more.
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Post by citrus on Jul 13, 2013 9:38:33 GMT -5
400 inches is not an impressive range at all. Don't forget the five seven has better everything else, especially visual gunkick. It's nevertheless superior to the Deagle, .357 magnum, and Python (presuming no stopping power or ACOG). The Five-seveN does have a boatload of advantages outside the TAC45's 2HK range, but in practice they won't make much of a difference except at a substantial distance. 10 rounds is still decent and the recoil is not bad at all if you can get used to the visual upset.
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Jul 14, 2013 11:57:32 GMT -5
I... may have been too hard on the Five-Seven. It's outclassed statistically but Dumien is right in that if you have a good trigger finger, good aim, a sexy butt and avoid fights you can't win, it's extremely capable.
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Post by kylet357 on Jul 14, 2013 12:56:34 GMT -5
I think the Five Seven is by far the best pistol for ranged combat. Sure, the KAP is low recoil and automatic, but it was crappy range. The Five Seven allows for medium range kills with low recoil, high mag capacity, high range, and good damage.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Jul 14, 2013 13:22:02 GMT -5
Thanks zero,
Also I should mention that the only time I use a pistol is when I'm using it with no attachments or with akimbo as the primary on an Assault Shield. Some of my classes end up with all 9 points used and a pistol being the best option. otherwise the best option is usually a primary w/ overkill. or simple using primary gunfighter with fast mags/entended mags (extended mags is generally my go-to there). So, while it is a niche option, it should be discussed beyond being simply inferior than all other options. Look at the niche roles that it can be used in, rather than merely the roles it fails at (you do this with LMGs/Snipers too Mouse).
To demonstrate this point...on one of my SnD shotgun classes I discussed in another thread here is what I use...
Ranger Laser Sight Long Barrel Lightweight Perk 1 Greed Flak Jacket Dexterity Perk 3 Greed Awareness
Each of those perks are chosen to make me as effective at close range as possible... This leaves me with one slot left. My options are as follows.
Toughness (not choosing it because of the LS) Cold Blooded (not choosing it because my corner tactical loitering involves strafe motion... I don't fear the MMS) A launcher A naked pistol C4 Claymore Shock Charge Stun Flash
The core of the class is locked down. My strengths are bolstered. What weaknesses do I want to improve? The obvious choice is fights at range. Do I want to be completely helpless or do I want a fighting range at the guy who is way out of my shotguns range? By not choosing a pistol on a shotgun class you are limiting potential win conditions. I felt like that choice was obvious. From there it is a matter of choosing which pistol you want. I like the five seven because its recoil feels non-existent at the ranges I need fight with it at. After all, there have always been more "ohohoh you got that guy across the map" with the fiven seven. There is the next point... the ranges in BO2? Not so far. "across the map" is a much much shorter distance. I feel like I'm always going to have a fighting chance. If I need a CQC secondary...say in the reverse role of a stongun (LMG/Sniper), I roll Kap or Tac.
Just remember, the niche isn't the power or the accuracy. The niche is the low cost. The trick is, beyond wildcard extravagance, everything has the same cost. The pistol's role has changed from being a back-up that everyone can have to a weakness coverer you choose to have.
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Jul 14, 2013 21:42:21 GMT -5
that basically applies to every gun in the game except the trigger finger part I'm talking more about just vs. the other pistols though—it's the most well-rounded and I'd take it over the Tac which is far more restrictive in terms of having to control engagements to play out favorably to you.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Jul 16, 2013 4:52:09 GMT -5
On a related note, I recently got a "nuked out" (nuclear in FFA) with a tac-45 class. 13 kills with the Tac and 13 with an AN I picked up off of the ground. Should be in a montage shortly... because it was super fast.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Jul 16, 2013 6:39:28 GMT -5
^So... Four C4 kills along with it?
Anyway I'd say pistols are a bit OP in this game. What's the best hipfire SMG... Skorpion? Seems like the KAP hipfire consistently beats it. And also seems like Tac-45 beats it as well, though maybe it needs a little more luck to get those two shots in on time. At least with the Akimbo FMGs you had to sacrifice the ability to ADS completely in order to become the ultimate hipfire dude. Not that a single FMG hipfire was bad, but I'd take the PP90M1 over it any day.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Jul 16, 2013 7:15:38 GMT -5
Nope. Tomahawk was the only equipment, but I never used it. I went into the game for fun, not expecting to get one of my best games. I prefer perk heavy classes in FFA, not usually C4. I could see a C4/scav set-up being effective though. The kill count was 13 AN-94 13 Tac-45 3 Kap-40 1 Combat Knife Starting class was Tac 45 Long Barrel Tomahawk <- Silly choice Lightweight Perk 1 Greed Hardline Toughness Awareness Perk 3 Greed Dexterity
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Jul 16, 2013 12:05:02 GMT -5
For some reason I was a throwing knife ninja in MW3, but can't hit anything with the tomahawk. Believe me, I've tried. I miss, and I can't tell if I led my target too much, not enough, if I tossed it too high, too low. Nothing. Clueless.
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