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Post by TheHawkNY on May 5, 2014 16:20:54 GMT -5
Just because they don't give a detailed explanation of why they made the change doesn't mean they don't look at data. From their perspective - whether they nerf the Bizon because people complained, because they looked at data and found it was too powerful, or a combination of the two - it makes the most sense to say "thanks for your feedback, we're making a change!" That's just one of the basic things that anyone involved with speaking to customers on behalf of a company doesn't even need to be taught. As for developers catering for those who cry the loudest because that's where the money is, that's just...completely incorrect. No company with an industry leading product is going to change their product for the group of users that cry the loudest. The reasoning behind that is that those customers represent a small, difficult to satisfy minority, which in many cases are unlikely to switch anyway. Do you really think that small group of people involved with MLG that were complaining about the Bizon being too powerful are where the money is? What percentage of the 21 million units the game sold do you think people that complained about the Bizon are? And do you think that if they had not made this change, those people complaining wouldn't have bought the next COD title? I have a sandwich that cures cancer. Proof not required. You are deluded if you think all of the game balances are made on an empirical basis otherwise we wouldn't see a vast change in how some weapons operate across subsequent instalments, e.g. Sniper rifles immediately spring to mind. What is a balanced sniper rifle in COD then? What ADS time would it be? Should QuickDraw be exempt from sniper rifles but be permitted on all other guns? Why the discrepancy? MLG complained about the Bizon, they also complained about the PDW and the KAP40. Why do you think the B23R pistol and the MSMC didn't get as a heavy nerf? I think you misunderstand the perceived potential of the competitive scene with COD. It will soon only be the game for them and that's why plenty of regulars are jumping ship. Didn't Activision put by $1m for the tournaments instead of advertising their product? I don't know what you're trying to say with your sandwich/cancer remark. I do know that they are a multi-billion dollar corporation, and it's extremely unlikely that a multi-billion dollar corporation would make changes to a product with revenue of over a billion dollars annually without looking at data if they had data related to the change they were considering. I also don't understand what point you're trying to make with Sniper Rifles. Tell me, do you really think that they didn't look at any data, that they didn't think they had buffed the gun too much, and they are only making the change because as you said, they lack "the assertiveness to say 'no'"? The B23R and MSMC were not nerfed as heavily as the PDW and KAP40 because the PDW and KAP40 were so much better than the B23R, MSMC, and every other SMG and pistol in the game before they were nerfed. Do you not remember how much better than everything else those were before they were nerfed? I did not say that there is no potential with the competitive scene for COD. But that is not, as you said, "where the money is". You mentioned them dedicating $1 million dollars for the tournament instead of running advertisements. If there's anything to take from that, it's how relatively unimportant that market is, given how small a percentage of their overall marketing budget for COD that $1 million is. That's the type of money that they might have just spent because they had under spent and at that point in the game's lifecycle they didn't have a better place to spend it and if they don't spend the budget in full they'll get less money next year.
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pachiderm
True Bro
Chewing some serious leaves
Posts: 647
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Post by pachiderm on May 5, 2014 17:39:15 GMT -5
Just because they don't give a detailed explanation of why they made the change doesn't mean they don't look at data. From their perspective - whether they nerf the Bizon because people complained, because they looked at data and found it was too powerful, or a combination of the two - it makes the most sense to say "thanks for your feedback, we're making a change!" That's just one of the basic things that anyone involved with speaking to customers on behalf of a company doesn't even need to be taught. As for developers catering for those who cry the loudest because that's where the money is, that's just...completely incorrect. No company with an industry leading product is going to change their product for the group of users that cry the loudest. The reasoning behind that is that those customers represent a small, difficult to satisfy minority, which in many cases are unlikely to switch anyway. Do you really think that small group of people involved with MLG that were complaining about the Bizon being too powerful are where the money is? What percentage of the 21 million units the game sold do you think people that complained about the Bizon are? And do you think that if they had not made this change, those people complaining wouldn't have bought the next COD title? I have a sandwich that cures cancer. Proof not required. You are deluded if you think all of the game balances are made on an empirical basis otherwise we wouldn't see a vast change in how some weapons operate across subsequent instalments, e.g. Sniper rifles immediately spring to mind. What is a balanced sniper rifle in COD then? What ADS time would it be? Should QuickDraw be exempt from sniper rifles but be permitted on all other guns? Why the discrepancy? MLG complained about the Bizon, they also complained about the PDW and the KAP40. Why do you think the B23R pistol and the MSMC didn't get as a heavy nerf? I think you misunderstand the perceived potential of the competitive scene with COD. It will soon only be the game for them and that's why plenty of regulars are jumping ship. Didn't Activision put by $1m for the tournaments instead of advertising their product? Look I'm not even sure where you're going going with this or where these ideas came from (LegendofThunder?) but I'm going to make some bullet points that I think you should understand before spewing any more reactionist paranoia. -The Bizon buff most likely went too far and a nerf could easily have been necessary for the balance of the game. -Many people in the competitive community don't care what gets buffed or nerfed so long as they know what the best guns are and can use them to their advantage. Therefore, there were many people in the competitive community, which is already a fraction of the overall playerbase, who didn't complain about the Bizon at all. -The list of items in this game that are banned from competitive play is still absurdly long and negates any claims that the game was built for, or is being changed to accommodate the competitive community. -The buffs/nerfs in both Black Ops 2 and Ghosts do not appear to cater to the competitive community. There were several nerfs that no one in the competitive community asked for or wanted, such as the AN94 nerf or the second MSMC/PDW nerf. The Vector and Bizon buff are similar examples as both of those guns saw significant use in competitive play before they were buffed. -The $1,000,000 Activision put down for CoD Championships is nothing compared to what they spend on advertising. That number is somewhere in the tens if not hundreds of millions. Also CoD championships was essentially one huge advertisement for Call of Duty so the point that they didn't spend that money on advertising would have been moot no matter how much they spent.
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exxtrooper
True Bro
Who the fuck is Mousey
Posts: 398
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Post by exxtrooper on May 6, 2014 7:35:05 GMT -5
pls nerf MTS
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wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
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Post by wings on May 6, 2014 11:03:38 GMT -5
I have a sandwich that cures cancer. Proof not required. You are deluded if you think all of the game balances are made on an empirical basis otherwise we wouldn't see a vast change in how some weapons operate across subsequent instalments, e.g. Sniper rifles immediately spring to mind. What is a balanced sniper rifle in COD then? What ADS time would it be? Should QuickDraw be exempt from sniper rifles but be permitted on all other guns? Why the discrepancy? MLG complained about the Bizon, they also complained about the PDW and the KAP40. Why do you think the B23R pistol and the MSMC didn't get as a heavy nerf? I think you misunderstand the perceived potential of the competitive scene with COD. It will soon only be the game for them and that's why plenty of regulars are jumping ship. Didn't Activision put by $1m for the tournaments instead of advertising their product? Look I'm not even sure where you're going going with this or where these ideas came from (LegendofThunder?) but I'm going to make some bullet points that I think you should understand before spewing any more reactionist paranoia. -The Bizon buff most likely went too far and a nerf could easily have been necessary for the balance of the game. -Many people in the competitive community don't care what gets buffed or nerfed so long as they know what the best guns are and can use them to their advantage. Therefore, there were many people in the competitive community, which is already a fraction of the overall playerbase, who didn't complain about the Bizon at all. -The list of items in this game that are banned from competitive play is still absurdly long and negates any claims that the game was built for, or is being changed to accommodate the competitive community. -The buffs/nerfs in both Black Ops 2 and Ghosts do not appear to cater to the competitive community. There were several nerfs that no one in the competitive community asked for or wanted, such as the AN94 nerf or the second MSMC/PDW nerf. The Vector and Bizon buff are similar examples as both of those guns saw significant use in competitive play before they were buffed. -The $1,000,000 Activision put down for CoD Championships is nothing compared to what they spend on advertising. That number is somewhere in the tens if not hundreds of millions. Also CoD championships was essentially one huge advertisement for Call of Duty so the point that they didn't spend that money on advertising would have been moot no matter how much they spent. I don't get my ideas from YouTube Heroes, especially Leg end of Thunder. He hates snipers but he's probably rubbish with them, like a lot of people complaining about them. From my understanding the whole issue with Black Ops with symmetric maps was seemingly designed in favour of MLG. That figure of 1m I think I read from someone on here. Why don't MLG players just ban the weapon in question instead of asking for nerfs? Sometimes pubs is different, like with the Sentry Gun. And that wasn't banned by MLG until 9 or 10 months into the game'a life cycle.
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wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
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Post by wings on May 6, 2014 11:40:19 GMT -5
I have a sandwich that cures cancer. Proof not required. You are deluded if you think all of the game balances are made on an empirical basis otherwise we wouldn't see a vast change in how some weapons operate across subsequent instalments, e.g. Sniper rifles immediately spring to mind. What is a balanced sniper rifle in COD then? What ADS time would it be? Should QuickDraw be exempt from sniper rifles but be permitted on all other guns? Why the discrepancy? MLG complained about the Bizon, they also complained about the PDW and the KAP40. Why do you think the B23R pistol and the MSMC didn't get as a heavy nerf? I think you misunderstand the perceived potential of the competitive scene with COD. It will soon only be the game for them and that's why plenty of regulars are jumping ship. Didn't Activision put by $1m for the tournaments instead of advertising their product? I don't know what you're trying to say with your sandwich/cancer remark. I do know that they are a multi-billion dollar corporation, and it's extremely unlikely that a multi-billion dollar corporation would make changes to a product with revenue of over a billion dollars annually without looking at data if they had data related to the change they were considering. I also don't understand what point you're trying to make with Sniper Rifles. Tell me, do you really think that they didn't look at any data, that they didn't think they had buffed the gun too much, and they are only making the change because as you said, they lack "the assertiveness to say 'no'"? The B23R and MSMC were not nerfed as heavily as the PDW and KAP40 because the PDW and KAP40 were so much better than the B23R, MSMC, and every other SMG and pistol in the game before they were nerfed. Do you not remember how much better than everything else those were before they were nerfed? I did not say that there is no potential with the competitive scene for COD. But that is not, as you said, "where the money is". You mentioned them dedicating $1 million dollars for the tournament instead of running advertisements. If there's anything to take from that, it's how relatively unimportant that market is, given how small a percentage of their overall marketing budget for COD that $1 million is. That's the type of money that they might have just spent because they had under spent and at that point in the game's lifecycle they didn't have a better place to spend it and if they don't spend the budget in full they'll get less money next year. I'm not sure if the PDW was really that much better than the MSMC because the latter was still much more popular in competitive circuits than the former at launch. The KAP40 I thought were only good for people who wanted a last ditch effort to stay alive, particularly snipers, when they're being targeted in CQC. May be it's just me but I preferred the B23R as I could roughly judge the distances in knowing when to one burst or two burst so I felt it was more economical with ammunition if I didn't run Scavenger. The KAP40 was a bit overkill but it didn't have that much ammo from what I remember and you are sacrificing a launcher to use it. There's no point in insisting pistols being fillers as the same cost of a primary and the exclusion of equipping a launcher. Black Ops 2 is the last game where you will want to be in not running a launcher unless you are playing either TDM or S&D.
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Post by TheHawkNY on May 6, 2014 12:39:36 GMT -5
The PDW was that much better than the MSMC, because it had 50 bullets. The MSMC was more popular because 50 bullets doesn't matter all that much in competitive circuits. The KAP40 was the best SMG in the game if you didn't have a problem with only 15 bullets, because it had decent accuracy and range with a 3hk at 937rpm. As for running a launcher, I didn't find it to be valuable, between the opportunity cost of points toward your loadout, the frequency at which I was killed staring at the sky trying to shoot something down, and the cost of being out of the game while I looked for and shot down UAV.
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exxtrooper
True Bro
Who the fuck is Mousey
Posts: 398
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Post by exxtrooper on May 8, 2014 14:11:56 GMT -5
Hey weren't they gonna nerf the Bizon this week?
Still don't understand why it needs a nerf, personally the whole buffing then nerfing again is the most pathetic thing i see among game devs these days, lost the little respect I had left.
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Post by -3055- on May 8, 2014 14:28:08 GMT -5
I'd rather have them buff and nerf random shit in a big way than keep things static.
Unless something just straight up outclasses another thing, I don't really care about perfect balance. It doesn't matter when you're pubstomping, anyway.
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pachiderm
True Bro
Chewing some serious leaves
Posts: 647
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Post by pachiderm on May 9, 2014 4:44:29 GMT -5
Look I'm not even sure where you're going going with this or where these ideas came from (LegendofThunder?) but I'm going to make some bullet points that I think you should understand before spewing any more reactionist paranoia. -The Bizon buff most likely went too far and a nerf could easily have been necessary for the balance of the game. -Many people in the competitive community don't care what gets buffed or nerfed so long as they know what the best guns are and can use them to their advantage. Therefore, there were many people in the competitive community, which is already a fraction of the overall playerbase, who didn't complain about the Bizon at all. -The list of items in this game that are banned from competitive play is still absurdly long and negates any claims that the game was built for, or is being changed to accommodate the competitive community. -The buffs/nerfs in both Black Ops 2 and Ghosts do not appear to cater to the competitive community. There were several nerfs that no one in the competitive community asked for or wanted, such as the AN94 nerf or the second MSMC/PDW nerf. The Vector and Bizon buff are similar examples as both of those guns saw significant use in competitive play before they were buffed. -The $1,000,000 Activision put down for CoD Championships is nothing compared to what they spend on advertising. That number is somewhere in the tens if not hundreds of millions. Also CoD championships was essentially one huge advertisement for Call of Duty so the point that they didn't spend that money on advertising would have been moot no matter how much they spent. I don't get my ideas from YouTube Heroes, especially Leg end of Thunder. He hates snipers but he's probably rubbish with them, like a lot of people complaining about them. From my understanding the whole issue with Black Ops with symmetric maps was seemingly designed in favour of MLG. That figure of 1m I think I read from someone on here. Why don't MLG players just ban the weapon in question instead of asking for nerfs? Sometimes pubs is different, like with the Sentry Gun. And that wasn't banned by MLG until 9 or 10 months into the game'a life cycle. Black Ops 2 saw an organized attempt by the community to ban as little as possible in order to establish a universal ruleset for competitive play and to receive increased developer support 360icons.com/forums/showthread.php/27654-Universal-Ruleset. This is a relationship that has not continued in the same manner during ghosts. The community has shown no hesitation when it comes to banning things, and I don't believe Infinity Ward listens to the competitive community the same way Treyarch did. I also highly doubt Treyarch designed the maps in Black Ops 2 for competitive play. What happened was the game dropped with 14 maps and the community picked which ones were the best for competitive play. That's what has happened since CoD4 and what will likely continue to happen.
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exxtrooper
True Bro
Who the fuck is Mousey
Posts: 398
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Post by exxtrooper on May 10, 2014 3:35:58 GMT -5
So now that the Bizon change is live what are you history book writers thoughts on it? Preferably in less than 5000 words.
You guys must be killers at writing essays fuck me.
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Post by -3055- on May 10, 2014 8:35:07 GMT -5
Never cared for it
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Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on May 10, 2014 8:38:30 GMT -5
Still too busy fapping to the Vepr.
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