cat
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Post by cat on Mar 6, 2015 19:47:15 GMT -5
Speaking of AMR9 even after patch it doesn't feel solid. 3 STK range is short and burst delay still a thing. Wish it could be more like Chicom - higher rof, no burst delay and 4 round burst. And it needs to be 3-4-5 STK too.
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prioc
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Post by prioc on Mar 6, 2015 19:57:05 GMT -5
I think it's pretty good now, but it feels more like an AR than SMG. I think I've been using foregrip + adv. rifling on it, but I don't know if this is the best idea. I think rapid fire might be a good attachment for it, so long as its accuracy is still fine
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Post by kylet357 on Mar 6, 2015 22:50:58 GMT -5
I think it's pretty good now, but it feels more like an AR than SMG. I think I've been using foregrip + adv. rifling on it, but I don't know if this is the best idea. I think rapid fire might be a good attachment for it, so long as its accuracy is still fine Rapid Fire on pre-patch Pro Pipe didn't make it too inaccurate. Not at all actually.
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banana
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Post by banana on Mar 7, 2015 9:24:33 GMT -5
Also, based on this, if you're only going to do one or the other, it's best just to run the laser for most ranges. You might also note that the SAC-3's DPS/area with laser and rapid is 6.2 within 650 units (812 with rifling) and the one with just the laser is 6.1, which makes them effectively equal. Based on that, I'd say it's probably better to not run rapid fire on the SACs under any circumstances. That info might help SAC users free up some points. Great stuff but why did you do it by dps instead of btk/s? Also, can you do the crime and punishment also.
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Post by thegentleman on Mar 7, 2015 16:06:46 GMT -5
The short answer is that bullets to kill is an integer and damage output is continuous. It'd get especially weird if I started saying things like, "per square unit of area the SAC-3 has .4 bullets." You either have a bullet or you don't. Expressing the raw damage output and then dividing by the spread you're working in gives you a better geometric probability of how likely you are to get hits on a target if they're anywhere within your hipfire reticle. Also, damage is damage regardless of the bullets it takes to do it. In the case of Akimbo weapons, you really want to measure killing time and probability of hitting a target since the player doesn't have any control of where any individual bullet will go within the cone of fire.
Sixone's clip is a good example of how this works in practice. In a lot of cases, he'll throw 30 bullets downrange to kill one person. But that happens in the span of a fraction of a second, so trying to figure out the role of each individual bullet is somewhat distracting. Some of them get to where they're going, but most of them don't.
Also, while true that the SACs are better in multiple engagements, I have a hard enough time killing one person with them when they're not practically standing on top of me. It's more likely that I'm going to need to put someone down immediately than it is that I'm going to need the extra ammo to deal with multiple opponents, at which case I'm probably dead anyway given the fact that mobility is higher than ever. If one enemy boosts left and one enemy boosts right, you're flat-out dead unless you've got your controller set on some kind of hummingbird level of sensitivity.
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Post by thegentleman on Mar 7, 2015 16:31:31 GMT -5
Also, crime and punishment stats (DPS / Area):
Within 650 Laser - 6.7 Rapid - 4.5 Laser & Rapid - 6.2
650 to 1206 Laser - 5.4 Rapid - 3.6 Laser & Rapid - 5.0
Beyond 1206 Laser - 4.9 Rapid - 3.3 Laser & Rapid - 4.5
Comparing the tricked out C&P to the tricked out JK, there's not a lot of difference, with the C&P being slightly worse.
To Mousey: the figures aren't ideal, but few things are. I just wanted to know how much damage was being thrown down within a particular part of the hipfire cone. Obviously the only way to figure out a better time to kill is by figuring out the average area a player at a certain distance fills up of each hipfire cone, which would be exhausting.
Mousey: I like your idea of using ttk, but I realized how exhausting it was to compute. Maybe I'll re-crunch them if it gets added to some kind of master table, but at the end of the day, we're still going to get a marginally better figure that tells us the same thing that these ones do: the concentration of killing power. Basically, all I mean to use this for is cross-comparison of akimbo guns. I'm fairly certain that no matter which way you slice it, the new PDW condensed is always going to put out more damage in a smaller area than any SAC variant, and using Rapid fire on any SAC variant is pretty much a wash if you're shooting at someone who leaves a lot of empty space in your hipfire cone.
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banana
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Post by banana on Mar 7, 2015 17:31:12 GMT -5
Instead of calcing it with the actual damage you could round it down for example instead of using the pdw's max damage of 33 you round it down to 25. That way higher damage doesn't give it an unfair boost. I guess it doesn't matter that much. Btw with your numbers the c&j is better than the jk not slightly worse
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Post by thegentleman on Mar 7, 2015 19:18:03 GMT -5
I think we're both right; I'd compared Laser + Rapid + Range on both.
Within the high damage range of the SAC-3s, you've got a figure of 6.2 for both the C&P and JK. From the medium range where the JK is doing 20 damage and the C&P is doing likewise (about 600 to 1200 units), the C&P is batting 5.0 to the JK's 5.1. Past 1206 units, the C&P is hitting 18 damage to the JK's 20. The C&P has a new DPS/area of 4.5 while the JK's is unchanged at 5.1.
Granted, I realized that the most optimal configuration for the DPS/area calculation is measuring just the laser, and I didn't check that. Close range, the C&P is batting 6.7 to the JK's 6.1. Medium range, C&P 5.4 to the JK 4.9, long range they're tied at 4.9. So it seems like if you run just the laser, the C&P is going to have a slight edge over the JK.
Also, it looks like there's a slight statistical advantage to laser + rapid farther out, but it's a difference of about 0.2 on my stupid arbitrary scale, making it mostly academic.
Bottom line is that the C&P in its most ideal configs still isn't going to come anywhere close to the condensed akimbos, and the argument over which is the "best" SAC-3 is also a pretty narrow distinction.
The formula for anyone else who wants to number crunch:
(Rounds per second x Damage at a particular range) / (hipfire reticle size squared * 3.14). Remember that laser sight is a 0.85 multiplier to the base hipfire, and rapid fire is a 1.15 multiplier to reticle size. Putting both on together almost cancels them out, but if you want to be precise it's a 0.9775 multiplier to the hipfire reticle.
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Post by sixone on Mar 12, 2015 9:40:47 GMT -5
Also, while true that the SACs are better in multiple engagements, I have a hard enough time killing one person with them when they're not practically standing on top of me. It's more likely that I'm going to need to put someone down immediately than it is that I'm going to need the extra ammo to deal with multiple opponents, at which case I'm probably dead anyway given the fact that mobility is higher than ever. If one enemy boosts left and one enemy boosts right, you're flat-out dead unless you've got your controller set on some kind of hummingbird level of sensitivity. This is my experience as well. When rushing if I face 2 tangos it's more important that I drop the 1st one quickly and move on to the 2nd one more so than firing a ton of bullets confidently not worrying about having to reload. Obviously it has drawbacks as well as you saw in the clip I had to smack the last tango cuz my clip was empty. Played a a few Kill Confirmed games yesterday with this setup: Primary: SAC3 Thunder & Lightning Secondary: PDW Condensed - Akimbo/Extended Mags Perks: Lightweight, Fast Hands/Gung Ho, Blast Suppressor/Scavenger Streaks: UAV - Support/Scrambler I've never used a secondary in COD in the traditional sense (swithching from my primary) but rather as a "primary" like the Tac-45 in BO2 or shotguns in MW2. So its taking some getting used to knowing when to switch to my "secondary" vs. reloading. But when I do have to switch to the SAC3 I'm yelling "die already!" cuz I'm used to the PDWs, lol. So I trade in the flexibility of the SAC3s (e.g., not needing Scav, access to Suppressor, etc.) for raw slaying. Gonna stick with this a while and see how I do.
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Post by hard1ine on Mar 13, 2015 22:03:54 GMT -5
And the patch did essentially nothing. ASM1's everywhere.
All that happened was some weapons moving from D/F tier to C tier.
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Post by digupstupid on Mar 14, 2015 10:18:08 GMT -5
Mousey: I like your idea of using ttk, but I realized how exhausting it was to compute. Maybe I'll re-crunch them if it gets added to some kind of master table, but at the end of the day, we're still going to get a marginally better figure that tells us the same thing that these ones do: the concentration of killing power. thegentleman: If you wanted to tweak your numbers to account for bullets to kill (without redoing everything) all you'd have to do is round down the raw damage for each bullet you used in the calculations to one the following: 33.333 - 25 - 20 - 16.667 - etc... (if they aren't these values already). This gets rid of the "extra damage" above that which is needed to kill, depending on the range. The only place where this needs doing for PDW Condensed vs. SAC3 JK is before 100 range on the PDW (33-25-20). This way the DPS/sq unit area is the same regardless of whether the bullets are doing 33 or 25 dmg (as you still have 4 btk). Thanks for the numbers bro, I'm going to go put akimbo PDWs on my SAC3 rushing class!
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Post by thegentleman on Mar 14, 2015 15:01:10 GMT -5
Glad you found it useful! As expected, the PDW akimbos shred in core. Scavenger and double-tap reloads are a must, however, but you can ditch toughness if you find that you typically put it on every class.
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Post by kylet357 on Mar 14, 2015 16:47:56 GMT -5
For SAC-3 I usually go Scavenger and Hardline or Blast Suppressor (it's helpful for getting closer), due to a lack of need to really have Toughness.
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Post by thegentleman on Mar 14, 2015 19:20:37 GMT -5
Also, thought I would like the "new" AMR-9.
I don't. At all.
Had several, several frustrating games today where I lost to an ASM-1 90% of the time. Tried about seven different AMR configurations. Just don't see a niche that it fills, and it's a far, far cry from the much-beloved Chicom in BOII. The Outlaw isn't accurate enough to outweigh the pitiful fire rate and damage. The shorty has even less damage. On paper, it seems like the rapid fire shorty should be a more accurate MP-11 squeaker since it can hit the 1200rpm threshold, but it's just a hitmarker machine all the time.
I just kept asking myself aloud, "What is this gun supposed to do well?"
On the plus side of today's AW sessions, the iron-sighted Lynx is extremely fun to use and works people over when used as a stealth weapon. Stock + silencer + irons = loads of fun. Two shot kill, anywhere, anytime (at least, I'm pretty sure of that).
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Post by kylet357 on Mar 14, 2015 23:12:45 GMT -5
Is the recoil on the Lynx actually good now? For a weapon with only a value of 5 for MaxPitch and a Center Speed at 2000, I imagine it would be.
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Post by thegentleman on Mar 14, 2015 23:34:46 GMT -5
Recoil goes straight up and quickly settles back down to the original position of the crosshairs. Even trying to mash the trigger at the firecap, you're still going to be on target out to medium-long range. Basically, the Lynx is usable standing and crouching now once you get into a rhythm of how quickly you can shoot and come back to center, but it's a lot, LOT more forgiving than it was in previous incarnations. In terms of making a weapon fun/usable/viable, etc., I'd say that the Lynx probably got the largest buff of any of the guns in the last patch.
Earlier today, I had about 15 headshots and played with the Lynx for about two hours or so and had the challenge finished. Then I played longer once I finally had the irons unlocked. Revisit it with variable zoom, then with thermal and smoke grenades.
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Post by kylet357 on Mar 15, 2015 0:24:15 GMT -5
Wouldn't Ballistic CPU be a bit more beneficial, since holding your breath with it isn't as helpful as the others (because it requires two hits to kill)?
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Post by Megaqwerty on Mar 15, 2015 2:05:52 GMT -5
In terms of making a weapon fun/usable/viable, etc., I'd say that the Lynx probably got the largest buff of any of the guns in the last patch. The S12 went from being the worst shotgun in a Call of Duty to one of the best.
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Post by thegentleman on Mar 15, 2015 3:37:12 GMT -5
Kyle: for headshots at longer range, the Ballistic CPU is fine, but it locks you into the default scope. I also have the tack driver, so the benefit is also marginal there for me. I'm of the mind that the default scope has way, way too much zoom for most levels of engagement.
Megaqwerty: you're right, actually. The S12 slipped my mind. I have an assload of fun using it now and it actually made the Bulldog pretty useless for me.
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Post by kylet357 on Mar 15, 2015 10:27:14 GMT -5
The S-12 is pretty much what the AA-12 was in MW2 now, correct?
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Mar 15, 2015 11:31:56 GMT -5
The S-12 is pretty much what the AA-12 was in MW2 now, correct? It's the MW2 AA-12 with 50% increased RoF, 1 less potential boolet at optimum capacity(15V16), more reach and longer potential reach with long barrel (500V750), tigher ADS spread (5V6), however it has quadurple the hipspread area and slower ads time. Mw2 had stopping power which was nigh mandatory on any shotgun class. No? No shotgun had less than 15 base DMG and unlike B3arc/AW shotguns they didnt have hip spreads of 10-12, the only shotguns that might of needed SP where the AA-12 and maybe the SPAS-12 if you wanted more consistent long shots and none of them even remotely needed SP if you had Steady Aim. The recent terribad shotguns have tarnished your memory of MW2 shotguns and remember new shootguns can use long barrel for 25% more range which is almost as good as SP. If I was going shotgun only I never used SP, always either brobluded or lightnoob in MW2.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Mar 15, 2015 11:57:17 GMT -5
Steady aim was shit because ninja. The reason I say shotguns needed stopping power is because if you arent using it you might as well run akimbo glocks which barely took any hit from not running SP. Shotguns where 1hkos at any range within their reach(Bar Striker), they arguably took less of a hit for not using SP and even if you where using SP. I'd argue you'd be even better off with kimbo glocks vs a shootgun when using SP as kimbo glocks will always benefit from SP at any range. So never use a shotgun because kimbo glocks are always better regardless of T2 perk? Fair enough. Also you could get away with controlling power points while duck walking in MW2 on certain maps.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Mar 15, 2015 12:27:36 GMT -5
All shotguns(Bar Striker) 1HKO anywhere wihin their reach. Read moo-c.
You have MW2 shotguns cofuzzed with cheez guns, again...
Edito: Since you seem to getting upset I'm not trying to say SP was useless on shootguns, I'm saying you could very easily get away being successful with shootguns w/o SP rather than SP being "nigh mandatory" on Kimbo Rangers in MW2 you silly moose.
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Post by kylet357 on Mar 15, 2015 13:52:58 GMT -5
For me, SP on shotguns depends on what shotgun it is. SPAS-12 should pretty much be running it all the time, as well as the M1014. All the other ones can do well without it. AA-12 makes up for it with rate of fire, same thing with the Striker, Rangers don't even need SP because it would just be overkill, and it doesn't affect pellets to kill at close range for the Model 1887.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Mar 15, 2015 20:06:00 GMT -5
All shotguns(Bar Striker) 1HKO anywhere wihin their reach. Read moo-c. You have MW2 shotguns cofuzzed with cheez guns, again... Edito: Since you seem to getting upset I'm not trying to say SP was useless on shootguns, I'm saying you could very easily get away being successful with shootguns w/o SP rather than SP being "nigh mandatory" on Kimbo Rangers in MW2 you silly moose. That reminds me of another reason the UMP Suppressed was so fucking cheap. You could secondary Rangers...
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Mar 16, 2015 6:36:53 GMT -5
Of course you can get away with it. You can get away with akimbo silenced mini uzis. the difference between good in bad in cod is often pretty small just because of how minor the differences are. Lets be fair moooc. You could get away with a no SP shotgun secondary far easier than kimbo uzis. Also if you could get away without something easily I wouldn't exactly call it Space suits are nigh mandatory when moon walking but you can get away easily w/o and just wear street cloth. Can't have something be nigh mandatory and easily optional at the same time mooc. I mean I sorta see what you're getting at as you could easily say the M4 is unusable just because the ACR is better and base shotguns are unusable by merit of SP shotguns being better as that's how CoD logic often works. Also you're not even factoring opportunity cost. Bro Bludded killstreak immunty allowed you to be more aggressive and push forward and light noob let you get closer/run away better/half sprint out time. Even in CoD4/WaW you where better off with juggernoob despite the massive SP benefit.
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Post by RainbowCrash on Mar 17, 2015 12:57:56 GMT -5
All this MW2 talk reminds me of how the stealth perk didn't have to be split up into 3 separate ones for it to be balanced, it was either near complete stealth or you shot marshmallows instead of bullets
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Mar 17, 2015 15:05:51 GMT -5
They just needed Ninja and Brobluded to be in the same tier for the same reason Juggernoob and Stoppingnoob where in the same tier in CoD4/WaW IMO.
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cat
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Post by cat on Mar 17, 2015 16:57:03 GMT -5
I've been torturing myself long enough to get a bit more than 1,5k kills with MK14 and this day has come. I must say this weapon is just bad. It's semi usable in TDM and KC but no way i'll be able to clear the room, capture the point, stop the drone carrier or do any other objective under the pressure of the enemy team. The problem is not even in gun but rather in overall pace of the game. The game is too fast to pew pew with it, common sense tells me that tra-ta-ta-ta with full-auto is more viable option. So here the question - what can MK14 do that any other AR cannot (aside from killing your KD and ruining your experience)? Also, EPM3 didn't get too far from it.
The way they've buffed it didn't make it an option. I'd like it to get same stats as MW3's counterpart, with an addition of increased fire cap.
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prioc
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Post by prioc on Mar 17, 2015 17:35:54 GMT -5
yeah, I actually liked its recoil before. I don't think it needs to be same as the MW3 MK14, but it should at least not drop to a 4 hit kill. the damage multipliers required to get 2SKs are also a bit unnecessary, and I don't think a 2SK anywhere on the body would be too powerful
I only have around 350 kills with it, but I did that mostly before patch and I had a lot of fun with it on momentum.
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