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Post by iw5000 on Feb 17, 2015 15:23:12 GMT -5
It's a game flow thing. Knifing, with it's silly animations, just wrecks the game flow and feels cheap
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 17, 2015 15:30:56 GMT -5
It also shrinks the skill gap.
In Call of Duty: Commando, where does skill come in to play? It's all auto aim with massive kill radius.
Aiming, dodging, etc. Require skill. Knifing removes the reward for being better than someone at.. Knifing range.
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Post by noscreenname on Feb 17, 2015 15:50:37 GMT -5
It is just one more tool in the arsenal to me. Not unlike the random triple kill grenade that we all love to get. I know I have won more knife fight/ cod dances than lost.
Let me make an analogy: Cod is like chess, you have pieces that have advantages and disadvantages. Which piece you move and when will determine your outcome. Should you have shot or went for knife too. Because if you got knifed, you had the same range as the other guy.
The knife disadvantages of having less range than ANY gun and a recovery time are enough for me and apparently every cod developer so far.
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Post by bucket415 on Feb 17, 2015 16:07:39 GMT -5
1. Stopping Power / Jugg / UAV Jammer = Tier 1 perks 2. Fix the shitty engine lag and "lag comp" 3. Go back to COD4 / W@W / MW2 / BLOPS1 style maps
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 17, 2015 16:46:14 GMT -5
It is just one more tool in the arsenal to me. Not unlike the random triple kill grenade that we all love to get. I know I have won more knife fight/ cod dances than lost. Let me make an analogy: Cod is like chess, you have pieces that have advantages and disadvantages. Which piece you move and when will determine your outcome. Should you have shot or went for knife too. Because if you got knifed, you had the same range as the other guy. The knife disadvantages of having less range than ANY gun and a recovery time are enough for me and apparently every cod developer so far. The same chess that makes me at an inherent disadvantage for not using the Obsidian Steed? Man, that's some deep shit. Or, let's go back: Using the UMP class in MW2? You make it sound as if knifing is some sort of strategic maneuver. Its not. There's a guy in front of you, and if hes within 60* of where you're aiming, hes dead. Anyone can do that just as well as the next person. Now let's say everyone has a sniper rifle in their pocket, and sniper rifles are no longer equippable primaries. If you use it to kill someone across the map, is it unfair? No. Retard with an AR could pull it out just as easily as pro with an AR; just like now with knives, except.. the good player will win 99%+ of the time simply because the sniper wont aim itself, or kill everyone within (if we extrapolate the kill radius of the knife as a blast radius at a range), 100 meters of the shot. I also have to wonder why you emphasized the knife having shorter range than "any gun" as if this isn't plainly obvious and necessary. Can you imagine how stupid the game would play if that weren't the case? Just sayin.
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Post by thegentleman on Feb 17, 2015 16:50:01 GMT -5
The logic itself behind the knife bothers me, too. I remember back in Counter-Strike when everyone would use the AWP and kill people in one hit. Thinking back, the TTK on something like the glock or the MP5 is ABSURDLY LONG compared to even most pistols in the CoD franchise. But at the time, people would say, "Well, hurr, it's a rifle, what do you think would happen if you got shot by it?" And thereby implying that any other gunshot isn't particularly debilitating or dangerous in real life.
To respond specifically to you, noscreenname, the weapon variants and the knife are two different animals. We all know the answer with the variants: it's not designed around the purity of the experience, but to encourage a grind until players say, "Fuck you, got mine" when they get a Speakeasy, Obsidian Steed, RIP, etc. Over time, I'm pretty confident in saying that most players will have an objectively OP variant within at least 2 prestiges. I've certainly got access to at least 3 guns I feel kind of shitty about using. (And do anyway.)
But back to the knife.
Aside from the fact that getting killed by it really takes me out of the moment and doesn't seem to fit with the universe I'm playing in, the online connection environments usually don't make it seem fair. I do actually end up putting bullets in people trying to knife me, as evidenced by their red screen. Had we been on an even keel, that extra bullet or two that should have come out of my gun would not have allowed them to get the kill. At the very least, assuming that nothing changes with CoD, the only thing my system would do is remove the one-hit-kills that a player arguably shouldn't have gotten in the first place. It would relegate the knife to a chancy decision to make an undetected stealth kill from the flank, which I would argue is the implicit role of the knife in just about every first person shooter and action movie under the sun.
This of course raises the larger question of whether it's "fair" to gun down people at a connection disadvantage from you, but at least in those confrontations people have SOME ability to respond by retreating to cover, firing back, etc.
Another way to look at it: you would think that the player getting the first shot into his opponent should have an advantage and is rewarded because of his faster reaction time. The enemy who uses a knife against that player in most cases doesn't know where the player is until his screen starts going red and bullets start flying. By mashing a button, the enemy wins the fight not because of his superior positioning or his ability to return more accurate fire, but because he happens to be some arbitrary distance from his attacker. That I also have a problem with.
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Post by noscreenname on Feb 17, 2015 16:58:48 GMT -5
It is just one more tool in the arsenal to me. Not unlike the random triple kill grenade that we all love to get. I know I have won more knife fight/ cod dances than lost. Let me make an analogy: Cod is like chess, you have pieces that have advantages and disadvantages. Which piece you move and when will determine your outcome. Should you have shot or went for knife too. Because if you got knifed, you had the same range as the other guy. The knife disadvantages of having less range than ANY gun and a recovery time are enough for me and apparently every cod developer so far. The same chess that makes me at an inherent disadvantage for not using the Obsidian Steed? Man, that's some deep shit. Or, let's go back: Using the UMP class in MW2? You make it sound as if knifing is some sort of strategic maneuver. Its not. There's a guy in front of you, and if hes within 60* of where you're aiming, hes dead. Anyone can do that just as well as the next person. Now let's say everyone has a sniper rifle in their pocket, and sniper rifles are no longer equippable primaries. If you use it to kill someone across the map, is it unfair? No. Retard with an AR could pull it out just as easily as pro with an AR; just like now with knives, except.. the good player will win 99%+ of the time simply because the sniper wont aim itself, or kill everyone within (if we extrapolate the kill radius of the knife as a blast radius at a range), 100 meters of the shot. I also have to wonder why you emphasized the knife having shorter range than "any gun" as if this isn't plainly obvious and necessary. Can you imagine how stupid the game would play if that weren't the case? Just sayin. The point of knocking variants is because it actually does make the playing field uneven. How is it not strategic in the right situation? You are an idiot for shooting a 3-4hk smg within knife range. Thats why knifing in core post stopping power era is more effective. Just because you think it doesn't take skill to win a fight with it doesn't make it any harder than headglitching a chokepoint.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 17, 2015 17:16:49 GMT -5
Make melee a two hit that uses the equipped weapon (technical term: butt stroking. No, really. I'm serious).
Bring back bayonets, which are a one hit kill.
Bayonet is best shotgun.
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 17, 2015 17:21:44 GMT -5
3. Go back to COD4 / W@W / MW2 / BLOPS1 style maps Those 4 games all had completely different styles of maps... so basically you want a mix of every single type/style of map?
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Feb 17, 2015 19:19:21 GMT -5
How is it not strategic in the right situation? It is, if someone had swapped to the knife in order to do so. There's no strategy in"oh shit I'm caught off guard let me reflexively hit the R3 button and insta win the fight" If someone wants to run around with the sole intention of knifing, I have no problem with that. That does require strategy because you'll be mowed down at any useful ranges.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 17, 2015 20:11:00 GMT -5
3. Go back to COD4 / W@W / MW2 / BLOPS1 style maps Those 4 games all had completely different styles of maps... so basically you want a mix of every single type/style of map? They're all three lane triforce of courage maps you silly willy filly from philly. PS:triforce master force
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 17, 2015 21:33:14 GMT -5
Those 4 games all had completely different styles of maps... so basically you want a mix of every single type/style of map? They're all three lane triforce of courage maps you silly willy filly from philly. PS:triforce master force BO1 maps, yes. The other three games listed? Maybe a map or two in each. I flipping despise the 3-lane format
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 17, 2015 23:27:29 GMT -5
Three lane is good, but not for every single map.
...also could use a jungle.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 23:29:30 GMT -5
A Call of Duty themed around the Borderlands universe. There. I finally said it.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 18, 2015 8:17:44 GMT -5
mw2 didnt have any bad maps Underpass and Rusty Shackleford but I think those are it.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 18, 2015 8:54:17 GMT -5
I think every single non DLC MW2 map bar Rusty used triforce formation.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 18, 2015 9:51:26 GMT -5
Karachi is totes 3 lanes, left alley lane, ruins/rubble through center, and right alley to market however it didn't really play like a 3 lane.
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Post by strokedem on Feb 18, 2015 10:15:59 GMT -5
1. Stopping Power / Jugg / UAV Jammer = Tier 1 perks 2. Fix the shitty engine lag and "lag comp" 3. Go back to COD4 / W@W / MW2 / BLOPS1 style maps I think the perk system in advanced warfare is badly broken and they for sure need to fix it in the next game. Toughness & Blast suppressor are really the only two essential perks and they are in the same tier. The rest of the perks are a joke. I normally run lightweight and fast hands for the simple fact that the other perks are useless. Scavenger is one that i would like to use but its in the same tier as all the other useful perks. I think they kinda should have smashed some of these perks together. For example low profile and blast suppressor could be put together. Same for lightweight and fast hands. There should be 3 perk tiers with 4 categories in each, stealth, health, speed, and equipment. So a total of 12 perks with you being able to have a maximum of 4 perks enabled at a time. A way they could use to blend the perks would be what they did in mw2. After you complete a set challenge you unlock the "pro" version of that perk which contains pretty much a added perk. Example how it would have worked in advanced warfare... Low profile- invisible to uav and all other score streaks, no shots on radar. Challenge- get 200 kills with said perk equipped. Reward- Low Profile Pro- invisible to uav, all scorestreaks, no shots on radar, no exo movement on radar, no name above character/ no recticle color change when aimed at by enemy. To me its absolutely ridiculous that if i want to be completely "stealth" in advanced warfare i would need Low Profile, blind eye, cold blooded, blast suppressor, hard wired, and a silencer attachment, and a gun to put the silencer on. And 2 wildcards for two perks in the same tier. So a total of 9 of your "pick 13" and you have 4 slots open to choose between additional attachments, score streaks, grenades, exo ability, and sidearm. And you no longer have toughness as a choice so good luck killing anyone thats actually shooting back at you. After all these previous call of duty games sledgehammer manages to learn nothing and produce probably the worst perk system we have ever had. Hell you need 3 different perks just to not be seen by any score streaks. If there is one thing ghosts got right, it was the perk system. Pretty much complete freedom.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 18, 2015 10:27:34 GMT -5
Thats what I mean. Like in your example you leave out a huge chunk of the map, the path from twp of the buildings into the rubble, and two/three notable rooftops which dont belong to either (and were arguably more important than the "base" areas themselves). Its possible to technically call it 3-lane but with crossovers, additional pathways, and intermediate areas, you have to change your standards to a point where you can call anything that has three lanes in any sense a "generic three lane map," even when its a lot deeper than that. If anything it has three bases and then 2/3 paths between each of those. That all being said there is value to the design philosophym three main pathways between objectives is good generally because too few causes a map to be very chokey and stalematey, while too many makes a map difficult to exert control on; both of which can be very frustrating. The issues arise when some interesting fellow takes it too far and makes mw3's resistance. Whether or not the map focuses on pushing 3 lanes or revolving around 3 lanes I think the triforce does wonders for map flow whether you notice it or not. Better flow than these new age BLOPS2/AW maps where they are pretty much basically "We put these smaller random shapes inside this other random shape" or Rorschach blot maps that are the standard nowadays to promote "fast engagement off spawn and remove tactical loitering/power points". Now that I think about it there hasn't been a CoD with decent power points since BLOPS1.
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 18, 2015 10:56:45 GMT -5
Oh yeah the dlc maps. Those sucked. Felt very mw3ish to me. The cod4 throwbacks were the only good parta of then. Maybe I'm a nutcase, but I flipping loved the MW2 DLC maps. Storm, Bailout, and Carnival are all very memorable to me.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 18, 2015 11:55:05 GMT -5
asasa's idea: Pick 100. Not pick a hundred things, mind you, but rather multiply the cost of most class items by 10 so that you can vary class cost. For example, a red dot sight could cost less than literally any other class option since, well, it's worthless. In contrast, you could have a no downside rapid fire that costs loads of points since you can now balance its direct class cost by making it cost 23 points or something. My ideas: No Secondaries: all guns are primaries and everyone has Overkill for free. Pistols are their own class and are balanced as primaries. In this schema, I would make a pistol analogous to every other weapon class with superior handling but worse damage. For example, a AR-style pistol with SMG handling; an LMG-style pistol with AR handling, etc. Pistols have double swap speeds which stacks both with other pistols (woo woo) and with the perk that also accelerates weapon swap. Also, primary launchers that are real and viable alternatives to real guns. (What a joke.) No single round guns: These weapons break reload and magazine mechanics and Sleight of Hand effectively doubles their fire rate. In AW, Fast Hands is necessary to cycle them while sprinting. Just give them magazines and slow fire rates. Hell, there's a semi-automatic magazine fed MORS in the campaign that fires slower than the real one. Shotguns that Don't Suck: I don't think Call of Duty is ready for this paradigm shift. A Viable ACOG: I also don't think Call of Duty is ready for this paradigm shift. ACOGs should be available for shotguns and should also be viable on shotguns. Graduated Perks: perks have multiple levels and the player may choose how many levels in which to invest. Example, Scavenger could have three levels where the first level restores 33% of a magazine per pick up , the second 66%, and the last 100%. Maybe you want longer sprint on a class, but you don't need infinite sprint. Well, put that point somewhere else. Ability to Make Classes In-Game: What century is this? Negative Perks or Quirks: The ability to choose negative effects for class in return for more points. Just going to camp? Reduce your movement speed. No one uses explosives in TDM? Reduce your explosive resistance. You always shoot down UAVs? Turn UAVs into Blackbirds. And stop doing trying to shoot UAVs; you're just wasting a solid minute every match. A quirk called Sapping Power would be the best. Carnival [was] very memorable to me. Carnival is best map because stealth clown.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 18, 2015 11:59:17 GMT -5
CarnEvil is Roberto Bowling's favorite map on the citadel.
I left out MW2 DLC maps because I never bought/played them so I have no knowledge of them.
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Post by bucket415 on Feb 18, 2015 15:08:05 GMT -5
3. Go back to COD4 / W@W / MW2 / BLOPS1 style maps Those 4 games all had completely different styles of maps... so basically you want a mix of every single type/style of map? No they were generally the same: Mid to large. Not symmetrical. Mix of elevation. Cover. Not 5 ways into every room / area. Good.
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Post by broth3r on Feb 18, 2015 15:13:22 GMT -5
Gotta pitch in that, because I hate virtually every last MW2 map. So large, so open, so easy to lock down areas and tactical lot- no, screw it, I don't do minced oaths, with areas specifically designed to allow so (scaffoldings in Quarry, Rundown bridges) with little flanking options - despite the sheer size, because it doesn't really matter how many ways you can run around the map when few to none of them are effective. I will grant I only got to play MW2 far after its heyday, and only getting to experience it against the filthiest of the filth, but still.
BO1 takes the crown in my opinion.
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Post by bucket415 on Feb 18, 2015 15:14:51 GMT -5
They're all three lane triforce of courage maps you silly willy filly from philly. PS:triforce master force BO1 maps, yes. The other three games listed? Maybe a map or two in each. I flipping despise the 3-lane format 3 lane format = BLOPS2. You might want to hit a wiki or something and re-familiarize yourself with those maps. They are nothing like BLOPS2.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Feb 18, 2015 18:16:20 GMT -5
Thats what I mean. Like in your example you leave out a huge chunk of the map, the path from twp of the buildings into the rubble, and two/three notable rooftops which dont belong to either (and were arguably more important than the "base" areas themselves). Its possible to technically call it 3-lane but with crossovers, additional pathways, and intermediate areas, you have to change your standards to a point where you can call anything that has three lanes in any sense a "generic three lane map," even when its a lot deeper than that. If anything it has three bases and then 2/3 paths between each of those. That all being said there is value to the design philosophym three main pathways between objectives is good generally because too few causes a map to be very chokey and stalematey, while too many makes a map difficult to exert control on; both of which can be very frustrating. The issues arise when some interesting fellow takes it too far and makes mw3's resistance. Whether or not the map focuses on pushing 3 lanes or revolving around 3 lanes I think the triforce does wonders for map flow whether you notice it or not. Better flow than these new age BLOPS2/AW maps where they are pretty much basically "We put these smaller random shapes inside this other random shape" or Rorschach blot maps that are the standard nowadays to promote "fast engagement off spawn and remove tactical loitering/power points". Now that I think about it there hasn't been a CoD with decent power points since BLOPS1. I think Blops 2 had fantastic DLC maps. Even though they were small they were very "traditional" not including the redskins of old maps. Grind is probably still my favorite map for Domination out of any CoD. Even if it was just because of how good sentries and guardians were and how effective that B flag headglitch was. I also thought it was the best map for the M1216 flanking from Vert to Shop.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 18, 2015 18:37:46 GMT -5
Grind was okay because it was prob the best shotgun map and was 3 lane.
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Post by thegentleman on Feb 19, 2015 2:57:57 GMT -5
Loved the first drop of BOII DLC maps. Grind and Mirage were absolute stand-outs for me, and Hydro and Downhill became nice ones once I'd gotten a sense of the map flow.
I also like any Dom map where there's a triangle and taking B flag isn't your only option. Much as I did appreciate BOII, sometimes the symmetric 3-lane system was pretty aggressive on maps like Plaza or Meltdown.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 19, 2015 8:29:47 GMT -5
What about Berlin Wall? Kowloon? Or Hazard.. or Hotel? Black Ops 1 = best maps. Creative, diverse, good flow, and they favored no weapon type (usually)
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Feb 19, 2015 8:30:36 GMT -5
Hmm, BO2 DLC maps...
Downhill - Love it Hydro - Mildly hate Mirage - Mildly hate Grind - Love it
Encore - It's ok Magma - Kill it with fire! Crap, it's made out of fire.. uhh.. kill it with ice. Studio - Pretty good Vertigo - It's ok
Cove - Pretty good Detour - Kinda sucks Rush - Love it Uplink - Sucks
Pod - Kinda sucks Takeoff - Kinda sucks Frost - It's ok Dig - Kinda sucks
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