Black Ops Shotguns: We are not going to hunt rats.

[guillermus]

First off say hello to everyone in here. Then You are my bro, bro.

Shotguns on Black Ops, i see them close to useless despite that they put them on your primary weapon slot. They all have very short range, low power and a hell of spread.

I can agree with Treyarch on not putting shotguns as secondary weapon of choice because it would end being too powerful (i enjoyed them a lot on MW2), but they really took them to a point where even pistols are more reliable. Making a must to ADS them to have less spread just makes this worse.

On CoD4 and WaW you had stopping power to make the WS1200 not horrible and the M1014 decent. Trench gun was horrible but it was a bit of fun sometimes. I tried all shotguns with different perk combination and i always end saying the same "I could have killed that guy with any SMG, AR or Pistol" instead of putting 3-4 shots on an oblivious guy.

I've tried to run SoH pro for faster ADS and the stakeout even with grip kicks a lot, the SPAS-12 is horrible if you ADS and the HS-10...well better not to talk. The only aceptable, only if you dont care about doing really bad is the SPAS12 with Steady aim Pro, just because it has 8 shells, but really needs the grip if you plan on use SoH pro and aim down the sights.

In my opinion, shotguns should be on their "to-do" list, not saying they need more damage, but maybe less spread while hipfiring and a bit more range would be nice. Is stupid that a MPL with rapid fire using Steady aim is a better shotgun even at 30-40 feet.

Just my humble opinion really, because i love shotguns.

[niteshadex]

Shotguns:
MW2 strength and primaries
Or CoD4 strength and secondaries

Infinity Ward took the overpowered approach. Damn good, and secondaries.

Treyarch has taken the underpowered approach. Pathetic and primaries.

-_____________________________-''

[chip sandwich]

Not as useless as snipers.

At the risk of sounding belligerent, deal with it. Marathon Lightweight SoH/Steady, learn the maps if you wanna use the shotguns, and spam the semiautos like you would the Striker/AA12, because I will admit the hit detection in this game is fairly unimpressive sometimes. I'm finding shotguns fun and I like the SPAS, HS10, HS10 akimbo and Stakeout pretty much equally. You also have to realise that some maps just aren't cut out for shotguns, much like Derail or Seelow from before. Jungle strikes me as one of these.

Only Stakeout and HS10 get ADS benefit. SPAS and Olympia have to be hipfired.

Also in CoD 4/WAW you had Stopping Power to make the shotguns marginally better and every high powered AR/SMG super powered. No Stopping Power, IMO, makes for a much better time for shotguns. Maybe you kill in one less pellet, but everyone else kills in one more bullet, maybe ten more because of additional recoil.

That said, the Olympia is a load of balls.

[zeebo]

My two cents is that shotguns would be so much more useful if melee from the front wasn't a 1 hit kill. Honestly, 3arch went the wrong direction by keeping the knife. They could have done multiple things to balance it out. Aka, only make knifing available if you have it equipped as your secondary... Make melee from the front with the butt of your gun and make it 2 hit kill and 1 hit kill from the back (can still be a knife to please the kids).

Not only would this bring the shotgun on a more balanced level, but it would also reward those who are more skilled with the weapon as opposed to those who panic and squeeze their controller and accidentally hit melee.

[anonic]

When I play with my controller I find I can almost never win a knife fight because of the added delay of moving to B to use my knife. Which is frustrating, because I hate having my crouch button off the stick.

[guillermus]

Just wondering, is there any number out for the range on the silenced SPAS12?

[Den]

Maybe if they would make MinDamage 20 instead of 10...

Nov 16, 2010 10:36:23 GMT -5 guillermus said:

Just wondering, is there any number out for the range on the silenced SPAS12?

Same as the normal SPAS.

There's no negative to using the Silencer on the SPAS.

[guillermus]

Well, then thats a good thing at least. While playing domination with some friends im trying to be inside rooms and small corridors like Grid buildings or moving between houses on cracked. Silencer not nerfing range will improve this a lot.

I can do much better with other guns than shotguns even on CQB but Foxtrot being a pro-gamer, this doo-doo is fun.

Is the Masterkey attachment a stakeout stat-wise? Im thinking on using it on the Commando as it would be a nice combo.

[niteshadex]

Nov 16, 2010 11:33:55 GMT -5 Den said:

Maybe if they would make MinDamage 20 instead of 10...

Nov 16, 2010 10:36:23 GMT -5 guillermus said:

Just wondering, is there any number out for the range on the silenced SPAS12?

Same as the normal SPAS.

There's no negative to using the Silencer on the SPAS.

O________O
You have crushed all that I learned about shotguns from MW2.

[toysrme]

look i just used the default olympia class in a random sabo (summit) & then a random dom game (hanoi) and had zero problem lighting up a 3.2:1 & 2.2:1 kdr's both over 20 kills.

you guys just jsut being completely pissy about shotguns. the damage is plenty, the range is more than enough.

stop walking in the middle of long streets is all i got to tell yall whiners.

[noclass]

I agree. While it's not as powerful as in MW2 it's still quite strong. It always comes down to tactics. It's a CQC weapon and very situational. Using this on let's say Jungle will not be as effective as in Noobtown. A friend of mine get a 10 kill streak from the shotguns without counting all the free kill from KS rewards. Tactics.

Extreme point blank will 1 shot. 2 shots on average and the spas holds 8 shells. More than enough to kill a small group.

I'm happy that it's not like MW2 where you get one shotted from retarded long ranges that should just tickle you...

[eLantern]

Nov 16, 2010 10:28:09 GMT -5 zeebo said:

My two cents is that shotguns would be so much more useful if melee from the front wasn't a 1 hit kill. Honestly, 3arch went the wrong direction by keeping the knife. They could have done multiple things to balance it out. Aka, only make knifing available if you have it equipped as your secondary... Make melee from the front with the butt of your gun and make it 2 hit kill and 1 hit kill from the back (can still be a knife to please the kids).

Not only would this bring the shotgun on a more balanced level, but it would also reward those who are more skilled with the weapon as opposed to those who panic and squeeze their controller and accidentally hit melee.

I've been saying things similar to this to any & everyone since COD4 came out. That the quick melee knife is simply a ridiculously stupid idea to incorporate into a game based around shooting the crap out of people, even though it may allow for a faster paced game when in close quarters combat.

I also agree 100% that a weapon strike is the proper attack method for a melee attack from the front & perhaps the sides. I also believe that if they really wanted to make things look awesome then they should have borrowed another idea from Bungie and introduced fast paced animated assassinations from a person's backside. Sure it might take a little more time then a quick knife and it may leave you slightly vulnerable to others but the pleasure it would give you to see some sort of cool silent Sam Fisher like take-down-kill would be priceless. It is, only, in these animated kills that the combat knife should be drawn out and used. Otherwise, weapon additions like a bayonet could allow for frontal-ish knife thrust attacks.

I also feel that the frontal weapon melee attacks like a butt stroke (minus a bayonet thrust attack) should drop a person into a last stand situation, but without their moments of invincibly and without them instantly having their pistols in hand. This way, you as the attacker can stand over them, finish them off, executioner style and move on. However, if there were a tie in the frontal beat downs then both players get knocked down and the person who had a faster "raise time" secondary weapon would have an advantage to shoot and finish off the other downed player first. Then, given a short amount of recovery time that player would / could then be back on their feet and moving on.

The idea here is to persuade the players to choose to use their combat weapons in there most effective killing methods first and foremost in close quarters combat, that is by pulling the trigger, unless their situation either forces them to attack with a melee, or they have equipment mounted on their weapon which would allow for a reasonable melee attack aka a bayonet, or so that they can attain a cool stealthy silent assassination take-down animation.

Now, as for the nerfed shotguns they do seem like they would work pretty well as a secondary weapon in their current state, not considered an overpowered weapon anymore by complainers, don't you think?

[slobbergoat]

The "they're okay" angle on shotguns kind of bothers me.

Learning the maps and using "tactics" only goes so far - why not just use the Skorpion instead and have a more reliable close range kill with a ranged effectiveness as well? Or any SMG, for that matter?

With SMGs you get a huge amount of close range damage as well as mid range effectiveness and at least the ability to put up a fight at long range. With shotguns you occasionally have close range effectiveness and no effectiveness at all anywhere else.

In MW2, something like the Ranger or SPAS basically ALWAYS killed an opponent within a certain range. The damage was so overwhelmingly massive that it could kill three players over. I took the stakeout yesterday as a pickup off a dead enemy and, trying to lead to a rage-inducing killcam, shot them in the back while ADS at point blank range. It didn't kill him and I had to knife him.

With the shotguns in BO your effective range might as well be Ranger distance, and even then a one shot kill is not a reliable bet. Yeah, you can use the Ranger effectively in MW2 just as you can use the shotguns effectively in BO, but it ultimately still kind of sucks.

Shotguns could stand to be a lot more "okay", and just because somebody can pick one up and occasionally have a good game with them doesn't make them on the level with the AUG.

[k4t4n4]

Nov 16, 2010 11:33:55 GMT -5 Den said:

Maybe if they would make MinDamage 20 instead of 10...

A much better solution would be just double their range (essentially the same effect you want and the ability to at least get hit detections at "realistic" distances.

Really the Call of Duty franchise needs to scrap their shotguns completely and rebuild them from the ground up. Shotguns should be an ADS weapon (people very rarely 'hip fire' a shotgun, their power almost requires you to shoulder them). The spread of buck shot should be significantly tighter and if you hip fire them it simply picks a random "origin" point for the spread within your crosshairs. They should also have a lot more range, a shotgun should be able to kill a stationary target at 50 yards if you shoot them a bunch of times. Also, shotgun should get a head shot multiplier.

Why do FPS's completely gimp shotty's compared to their real life counterparts? In real life they are very underused military weapon. My guess is real life combat tends to be much larger battelfields and FP's tend to feature far more CQC. Regardless, there is no reason they couldn't tone down their short range to give them a mid range.

[slobbergoat]

I personally think shotgun pellets should do a minimum of 10-5 damage at any distance - even being shot from the other side of wasteland / array should give you hitmarkers.

Also the damage would be smooth downwards trend line from point blank - instant death being from roughly M1014 distance with two shots being SPAS distance and then tapering off to minimum damage at range taking many more shots that reasonable for anything but supression.

Shotguns being unable to supress enemies at all is part of their weaknesses presently as they are completely unable to provide any threat past their maximum range. Even the MP5k can both an enemy at long range but a shotgun cannot.

[saddaminsane]

shotguns are actually pretty good- better than COD4 shotguns now that they have lightweight- no more stopping power the kill shotguns users so quickly, and the tighter spread from ADS. just try to understand the range limits and you can dominate with them
use the silenced spaz / aim down your sights with the stake out for best results

[acidsnow]

I gotta agree with the consensus here: shotguns suck (same as the LMGs). I first tried using Steady Aim which seemed OK, but then I learned that BOps shotties have less spread while ADS, so then I switched to SoH... But even with the Olympia I don't land that many 1HK, it's quite annoying tbh, especially when the Olympia has the most close range damage (40dmg), but only has 2 shots: it seems like 30% of the time I have to use both rounds on one douche.

...Sure shotties can be good when used with the right tactics, but even then they're just not that reliable. IMO, Trey screwed the pooch on both shotties and LMGs, I thought both were pretty fair in MW2.

[whoknows10]

It would be nice if they added the Slug attachment, essentially turning shotguns into unscoped bolt actions

Anyways, I don't get why shotgun pellets are designed to disappear after a certain distance, the pellets will be doing minimum damage and the spread will have dispersed to the point where it can only kill second chance users

Really wish they would buff the shotguns and the LMG in an update...

[slashdolo]

Honestly, I think the damage numbers for PC on shotguns are not the same on consoles. They can't be.

I took one look at Den's damage chart and wrote off all the shotguns. Then, I got bored and actually used them, and I have to say, the Stakeout and Spas-12 are actually excellent weapons.

The reason I say the numbers are different for console is because the Stakeout and the Trench Gun from WaW are very similar by the numbers, but the Stakeout absolutely wrecks compared to the WaW Trench Gun which was beyond awful. I one shot one kill people with the Stakeout I'd say 8 or 9 times out of 10. The Trench Gun from WaW would OSOK for me MAYBE 1 shot out of 4. It was terrible. The Stakeout is great. I don't get it.

That being said, the Shotguns in this game are better than their COD4 and WaW counterparts by a long shot, at least one the 360. While not as good as MW2's shotties, they are certainly not useless weapons now that there is no stopping power/juggernaut and SMG's are a minimum 3 bullet kill close up.

[fisky]

Nov 16, 2010 11:33:55 GMT -5 Den said:

Maybe if they would make MinDamage 20 instead of 10...

Nov 16, 2010 10:36:23 GMT -5 guillermus said:

Just wondering, is there any number out for the range on the silenced SPAS12?

Same as the normal SPAS.

There's no negative to using the Silencer on the SPAS.

Wait, WHAT?

I am SO using that from now on.

Anyhow, I partially agree with the OP, although I did a farily good job with the SPAS-12 on Summit. I mainly stuck to the big building with two floors (B flag in Domination), and the SPAS-12 raped face in there.

I think the SPAS-12 is fine as it is, the Olympia sucks major balls (which I don't care about) and I haven't tried the HK-10. (It looks god awful)

However the Stakeout, imo, should recieve a small buff. To me it should be the L96A1 of the shotguns. It is a pump-action, after all, and sometimes I've raged so hard at it not killing within farily short distance. I did not know about the tightened spread while ADS'ing with it though; gotta test that out.

So basically I love the SPAS-12 (and damn, I can even use the silencer), but the Stakeout should recieve a minor buff in form of less damage loss over range/increase range a bit/more pellets or something like that.

If you stay in CQC areas, the shotguns really shine. I like that you actually have to stick to CQC areas to do well, because it is a shotgun after all, and the SPAS from MW2 was a tiny bit OP imo, since you didn't have to worry too much about running into more open fields.

[[N7] SakuyaFM]

Nov 16, 2010 9:56:41 GMT -5 chip sandwich said:

Not as useless as snipers.

I've been quickscoping with the L96A1.

Oh wait...

[fisky]

Actually, I just remembered something.

When MW2 was announced and I was waiting for it, I thought about perhaps giving all shotguns (or at least newer models) an attatchment called "Slug", which basically made the range longer (maybe infinite as all other guns) and removed pellets in favor of one larger bullet.

I'd still like to see that as an option for the shotguns in this game. The damage should drop off quickly though, to avoid the shotguns becoming severely OP.

[njma]

spas silenced + steady aim is balanced

the olympia and the stakeout need slightly more damage, they need to be guaranteed kills at point blank, which they are often not

the prototype one needs something to stand out more, but I guess akimbo does that

[mw0swedeking]

Shotguns should be scrapped from shooters. I hate getting killed by shotguns almost as much as I hate getting knifed.

You may have fun doing it, but someone else is gnashing their teeth every time you kill them with it. So deal with it.

[fisky]

Nov 17, 2010 1:47:40 GMT -5 mw0swedeking said:

Shotguns should be scrapped from shooters. I hate getting killed by shotguns almost as much as I hate getting knifed.

You may have fun doing it, but someone else is gnashing their teeth every time you kill them with it. So deal with it.

That really isn't a proper reason to remove shotguns from FPS's. I mean, if I ever go out of CQC areas with a shotgun, I'm screwed. They can only do well in those CQC areas, which really isn't overpowered at all. It is a short range weapon after all.

[mw0swedeking]

Yeah.

[guillermus]

Nov 17, 2010 1:47:40 GMT -5 mw0swedeking said:

Shotguns should be scrapped from shooters. I hate getting killed by shotguns almost as much as I hate getting knifed.

You may have fun doing it, but someone else is gnashing their teeth every time you kill them with it. So deal with it.

Thats not a valid reason afterall. I dont like sniper rifles but i dont say they should remove them from the game, i hate the panic knife because i played CoD and United Offensive (and CoD2) on PC a lot and it feels kinda stupid the lunge distance, but then i doubt they will take that out. Is plain cheap and easy to design, shotgun usefulness is just number tweaking.

[thedjinn]

As a shotgun (ab)user in CoD4, W@W, MW2, and now most recently Black Ops, I have one thing to say: they're completely underpowered.

Actually I have more. I'm the kind of user that 'railguns' with a shotgun, if you can picture that: a scope in, fire for an insta-kill, then scope in kind of guy, with the occasional spinning hip-fire thrown in when I need to hit someone beside me.

I make sure I'm always engaging in CQC in order to maximize my guns capabilities, and I'll be the first to say that within range, I will own anybody, hands down no contest, allowing for connection.

My problem with shotguns is threefold: first, their range. It's terrible. I use the Stakeout thanks to its tight hip-fired and shoulder-fired spread and it's decent range and ammo capacity. I pretty much have to always take two shots (and that's painful when you're using a pump-shotty) unless I'm within MW2 commando range because of how many hitmarkers I get. I've been compensating for the range by dancing around like a ballerina and perfecting my reflexes, but that only goes so far.

Second, the removal of stopping power. I know people say that will help shotty users, but I disagree. For those who are as good as me or better with a shotty, they will definitely welcome the range increase they get from it. I don't fight people out of my range for a reason.

Third, lagmarkers. You PC players might not have a problem thanks to being able to pick your server but us console players have to deal with Treyarchs horrible matchmaking and the accompanying endless shotgun hitmarkers. I swear I have 250 ms of ping most games because Treyarch doesn't do nearly as much matchmaking as IW did; at least with MW2 it would take you from 50 ms ping to 150 ms ping looking one by one at each game until it found you an empty spot. I watch my replays in theatre mode and for up-close fights they are literally twice the width of my hip-fire reticule away from me when I fire at them (and sometimes I get a kill from that!).

I guess I only really have one problem: hitmarkers, whatever causes them. I swear I just dropped my controller mid-match in frustration and walked away after I got three hitmarkers on one guy with the Stakeout and died for it.

[avemcree]

shotguns are beast on BO.... like I said before all the weapons in BO are beast in the right hands... this game requires more skill than MW2.... alot people lives were happy when SP was a perk truthfully speaking

[fazzmania]

Shotguns are not beast. I often have 8-10 KDR matches with the famas, where with careful bursting I can get 3-4 kills with a single clip. With the olympia I can get 2 hitmarkers, not get a single kill and that's my clip done. To argue shotguns are fine in the hands of a skilled player would be like saying every gun is good because someone can maintain a positive ratio with it. The famas is good at long medium AND short range (hipfiring on the latter) whereas the shotgun is mediocre at short range, terrible at medium range and nonexistant on long range.

The only reason to use a shotgun now is have a change of pace from full auto/burst firing. They are worse than ARs in every possible way.