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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 7, 2011 12:48:37 GMT -5
Edit: Expanded to include non-magnum vs body armor, head shots, and changed a few of my weapon balance proposals Hello Denizons! I have brought this up at the official US forums, but it seems like the only people who lurk there are 14 year old's who can neither spell nor make grammatically correct sentences, much less think rational thoughts. It is well documented that certain guns are more powerful than others. This is not a huge thing, as there is no god gun right now, similar to the WaW MP40 drum mag juggernaut. But alas, some guns are better than others, and a few guns are hardly usable. Considering this, I have put together proposed weapon balance changes. We all know that DICE is willing to listen to the community, and while I doubt many DICE employees read these forums, it is generally a good place to come to for rational, well-thought out feedback from like-minded fans of the game. Here is the link to my time to kill spreadsheet. spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AlTMrHbh89wedFd6REg3cFdlek1JdDJ3eWNzWXRUWWc&hl=enIn it, you will find 8 sheets (switch between them at the bottom of the window) What I want you bros to look at is the 2nd sheet, and give me feedback on the proposed changes. I know that some people want to nerf the Uzi, or not nerf the PPSh. I believe that the changes that I put in will give each weapon a role within a kit and across all weapons. Controversial changes: the semi-auto snipers made into a 2 shot kill up close, the XM22 nerfed down a bit, PPSh close damage from 25->20. Needed (and hopefully agreed upon) changes: AK nerfed, RPK buffed. There are others, including an M40 nerf, but I want to get your opinions on them. Please take the time to read the chart before slandering me too much Have a brotastic weekend bros!
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Post by infininja on Jan 7, 2011 21:28:26 GMT -5
Your buff and nerf indicators are backwards.
Maybe I haven't used it enough, but the 20 round clip on the M14 makes it hard to use as it is, I don't think it needs to be nerfed.
Making the semi-autos a 3/4 2/3 will only further solidify magnum ammo being used with them. I think this needs to be thought over. A headshot up close against a non-body armored target would be a one hit kill. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not.
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Post by drfluffy on Jan 7, 2011 23:36:28 GMT -5
I think the guns are meticulously balanced, except with the possiblity of sniper rifle being too dominating in hard core in vietnam (even with body armor)
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 8, 2011 15:06:30 GMT -5
I believe that some weapons are out of balance. AK is pretty tough, and PPSh beats most things up close.
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Post by drfluffy on Jan 8, 2011 15:08:40 GMT -5
I think M16 is equal if not better than AK, and M14 might have a specific niche that has not yet been discovered (I think it might be a good CQB gun with armor).
As of PPSH, it's very strong, and perhaps could use a 5 point damage reduction.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 8, 2011 16:02:38 GMT -5
Really? The M16 I don't think needs a buff, but the AK really needs a nerf.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 8, 2011 17:05:14 GMT -5
Expanding on that: As of now, with magam, the AK can (and due to the generally good hipfire, usually comes close to doing that) drop someone close up in .24 seconds. The fastest SMG (granted, they have excellent hipfire spread) does it in .3 seconds. The AK-47 is better than SMGs at close range by 20%. TWENTY PERCENT. Given, you won't win every equal, close quarter battle because of the hipfire spread difference, but it's not uncommon to.
Not only that, the AK is extremely efficient at long range with great iron sights, predictable and medium recoil, and the fastest TTK out of any gun.
There is one gun that will outclass the 47 at short range (and one gun only), the PPSh with body armor. The AK user in this case needs 5 bullets to drop the target (or 2 headshots and 1 body shot, 1 headshot and 3 body shots) , while the PPSh needs 4 (or 2 body shots and a head shot, or 2 head shots), and it has a better hipfire spread.
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Jan 9, 2011 12:02:13 GMT -5
A good starter would be to drop the AK by 50 RPM and give it a slightly longer reload, increase the M14 RPM by 50 and decrease only the longrange damage of the PPSH to 14 (which is exactly what balances the AK74U).
Also keep in mind: On paper, the RPK doesn't look so hot but that doesn't keep 50% or more of the medic players from using it.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 10, 2011 13:04:31 GMT -5
Actually, I like the idea with the AK47. Considering how the rifle shoots slower in real life. Unfortunately, they haven't been so apt to change the RPM on any of the guns, really. So yeah. If the PPSh's only change is that it takes 1 more bullet to kill at long range without magnum ammo, I still think that it's overpowered. Honestly, the gun it should be compared with is the shotgun, because their effective ranges overlap the most. Let's see. Utility: the PP has automatic fire, takes 4 bullets up close to kill a non-body armor wearing target, and can drop people at range in about 1-2 seconds, considering burst fire is used. The 870 has an expandable clip, can kill in one shot reliably between 0-10m, and 2 shots between 10-15m, you are better off with your sidearm after that. Also, you can equip slugs which slightly decrease your one hit kill prowess but increase your 2 hit kill to any range. Considering that, the only time I would use a shotgun is when I know I can limit the engagement to less than 10m, and even then, I would consider the PPSh, given that I can get potentially more killing power out of each clip and the reload time is considerably less than the 870. Perhaps I am making a false comparison, that these two weapons should not be compared, that the PPSh should be compared with guns like the Mac10 and Uzi, but I just don't see it. The other gun that is remotely like it, the M1A1, has ridiculous kick and is best used as a novelty gun, (also, it has less damage), and the Mac10 and Uzi guns are best used at medium to long range, throw out a large number of bullets, and generally don't have the prowess up close (by a long shot) that the PPSh does. If the damage is reduced to 20, instead of 25 as it is now, the PPSh won't lose any of the things that make it special now (low recoil, clear iron sights, manageable fire-rate) but you will no longer be able to free up a 2nd perk slot and still dominate everyone close range. As for the RPK, that is a whole 'nother story. I have no idea why people use it. It must be subjective asthetics, because the gun is crap in my hands. It only has lower recoil through it's lower rate of fire, bursting with the Stoner (XM22) will still kill faster than fully auto with the RPK, and the Stoner has great, predictable recoil. It reminds me of a much more powerful version of the SAW or even better, the MG3, with it's straight vertical recoil. Headshot city. Now, I know I am getting into some subjective things myself here, and the numbers can't tell the whole story, but I see the PPSh's numbers and I think: exploitable. Of course, I haven't used it nearly as much as the Uzi
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Jan 10, 2011 14:10:29 GMT -5
the Mac10 and Uzi guns are best used at medium to long range, throw out a large number of bullets, and generally don't have the prowess up close (by a long shot) that the PPSh does. If the damage is reduced to 20, instead of 25 as it is now, the PPSh won't lose any of the things that make it special now (low recoil, clear iron sights, manageable fire-rate) but you will no longer be able to free up a 2nd perk slot and still dominate everyone close range. The thing that makes the PPSh special is that it is great at close range, the issue is that it is too good at long range so that the other guns can't compensate their inferior short range damage. With 14 damage, the tradeoff between Body Armor and Magnum is 2 STK at range, so the PPSH player would have a disadvantage to the other guns. People seem to forget that a revive means your team gets a ticket back, which does compensate for the weaker MGs (and a healthpack can give you that one more STK you need to off a guy). That is something you need to consider when balancing guns.
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niteshadex
True Bro
Xbox GT: The Beastly 117
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Post by niteshadex on Jan 10, 2011 14:59:30 GMT -5
If anything needs a buff, its Hueys. No tracers to worry about, or stray RPGs. But I feel like Dice compensated by making it out of tin foil and glue. I know is a UH, utility helicopter, and IRL most were held together by bobby pins and dreams, but it makes for lousy ingame balance.
Only mounted, Jeep, Tank, and Medic MGs should hurt Hueys (In addition to explosives and other choppas of course).
I'm tired of seeing Huey's dropped like rocks before combined AK or PPSh fire. It's just...wrong.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 10, 2011 16:15:59 GMT -5
People seem to forget that a revive means your team gets a ticket back, which does compensate for the weaker MGs (and a healthpack can give you that one more STK you need to off a guy). That is something you need to consider when balancing guns. Of course. I don't disagree with keeping MG's slightly less powerful than other guns. But I don't see why the RPK has to be the worst. Maybe nerf the XM22 and keep the RPK as-is? If we are using Vanilla as a balance benchmark, the changes that I proposed would fit very well with how the weapons are balanced. The LMGs would not outclass all other guns at any range, and on average, would be slower to kill than pretty much all of the other kit-specific guns. Look at the current balance of vanilla to confirm what I am saying. 1 specific example: the PKM in vanilla kills in 5 bullets close and 6 at range (mag ammo) in vanilla, leading to .37 seconds to kill, landing all body shots close and .46 seconds at farthest range, with an average of .42 seconds. Comparing this with other kit weapons, the XM8P takes .32 and .40 seconds, the 9A takes .30 and .50 seconds (.4 average), and the VSS takes .30 seconds at any range (rarely achieved, though, at range). That means that it is outclassed by others by .07 to .05 seconds close, and .06 to .16 seconds at range. My changes, looking at the applied leads the RPK, it would be outclassed by .11 seconds close by the M14, and .04 seconds at range by the Uzi. You may make the argument that it should be a bit worse at range than 17 damage, maybe a 6 shot kill with magnum ammo, and that may be valid. But then, it still is inferior to others (as that would require a 7 shot kill at range, no magnum). I may take another look at the LMGs. But the LMGs have other things going against them as well. Sure, they are great if you are crouched, not moving and burst firing, but become very inaccurate when shooting on the move, much more so than other guns. Recap: I agree that the Medic kit is somewhat overpowered (in terms of available equipment), but the changes I proposed don't make them better choices than other guns.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 12, 2011 16:37:03 GMT -5
I have added DPS on both how it exists now and proposed changes.
I generally like the way that the DPS numbers play out in my proposed changes: typically the more difficult weapons have higher DPS (M14, XM22, Uzi) and the easier weapons have less (RPK, M16, PPSH)
And I didn't put in magam for obvious reasons (every gun's DPS is affected in the same way by MagAm).
Honestly, I think that even 24 or 22 close damage for the PPSh would be a big shift.
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novem
True Bro
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Post by novem on Jan 13, 2011 6:36:08 GMT -5
Of course it would be, coz it means 1 bullet more to kill.
And for the balance changes: - nerf the goddamn heli, its so annoying, especially repairing from inside while flying, give ppl tracers, anti armor ammo or whatever - slightly nerf ak/boost m16 reload time - boost m14 (mag size?) - nerf ppsh - make uzi and m10 differ each other more - slightly boost rpk (honestly i think MGs are well balanced) - boost svd/m21.
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Post by drfluffy on Jan 13, 2011 9:45:03 GMT -5
balance is fine, besides M40.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 13, 2011 13:21:31 GMT -5
As of PPSH, it's very strong, and perhaps could use a 5 point damage reduction. balance is fine, besides M40. At some point you thought that the weapons should change, what happened? But seriously, does anyone even look at my chart?
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 13, 2011 16:45:50 GMT -5
Updated first post.
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novem
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Posts: 193
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Post by novem on Jan 14, 2011 11:32:50 GMT -5
Chart is ok (except the fact that nerf should be red and buff should be blue ) and i agree with most of the changes, however you should remember that TTK isnt the only stat weapons should be judged based on. For example there is the situation with xm22 and rpk, on paper xm22 is awesome with badass ttk and other stats and rpk is shit, but in game xm22 has worse irons and is harder to use- hard to see enemies through muzzle flash, hard to track them and kill them running. Also very high rof means you waste a lot of bullets. I have accuray about 20% with m60 and rpk (and with other guns around 19%) while with xm22 i have only 12%. It has great ttk but only when you hit all bullets, and with this crazy recoil and high rof most of them just would miss the target. Or uzi- from stats its winner, but try to hit running enemy at mid-long range with 7 bullets with these crappy irons. So the balance is not only pure damage, rof and ttk math, its also aescethics, recoil, reload time, magazine cap etc.
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Jan 14, 2011 12:36:38 GMT -5
The XM22 has a role, its putting up a lot of lead in the air which is nice at close range and against hidden target but you will always get pwned at range.
The lower accuracy also comes from the fact that sometime you shoot that hut just for good measure (the 200 round mag isn't helping being more conservative with the ammo, but it keeps the assault players happy with resupply points).
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 14, 2011 12:45:16 GMT -5
Of course there are more about weapons than pure numbers indicate. For sure, more of the screen is blocked when using the XM22, the Uzi, and the M16. But, like I've said, (and Den, too: LINK) If you spot the guy, you get a nice little triangle that shows through. Then you just gotta aim below that triangle and he's done for. That being said, basically the numbers are the most viable of all of the gun characteristics.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 14, 2011 12:58:12 GMT -5
Chart is ok (except the fact that nerf should be red and buff should be blue I am just going off of the color arrows that Den had on his charts whenever a patch came to change the weapon stats in the vanilla version of BC2. Personally I associate red with more energy and blue with less... but some people say since red=bad and blue=good, that is the way it shuold go /asthetic_rant
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 14, 2011 19:44:37 GMT -5
Updated to reflect Proposed M60 buff.
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novem
True Bro
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Post by novem on Jan 14, 2011 19:47:53 GMT -5
Hey hey hey, m16 is awesome(st), even better than ak if u know how to use it. Not the same league as uzi and xm22, definitely not.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 14, 2011 20:10:20 GMT -5
I'm not asking for an M16 buff, just an AK nerf. "In the right hands" the AK always wins against the M16.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 15, 2011 0:41:14 GMT -5
Two words.
Touch Football.
Also, it's been added.
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Jan 15, 2011 4:35:40 GMT -5
I'm not asking for an M16 buff, just an AK nerf. "In the right hands" the AK always wins against the M16. in the right hands, it wins against everything ;D
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 15, 2011 14:53:11 GMT -5
I'm not asking for an M16 buff, just an AK nerf. "In the right hands" the AK always wins against the M16. in the right hands, it wins against everything ;D It makes me sadface, but it's a much better sniper rifle than the SVD and M21 (same with the Uzi too). I really hope DICE realize that this game needs a balance patch (probably one that won't take too long for development) and just does it instead of shifting 100% attention to BF3. BF3 is in the future, the patrons have already bought an unbalanced game and are playing it in the present.
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Post by drfluffy on Jan 15, 2011 15:05:11 GMT -5
I really fail to see the imba in HC vietnam, seems like every gun's fine except M40.
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Post by infininja on Jan 15, 2011 16:24:04 GMT -5
in the right hands, it wins against everything ;D It makes me sadface, but it's a much better sniper rifle than the SVD and M21 (same with the Uzi too). I really hope DICE realize that this game needs a balance patch (probably one that won't take too long for development) and just does it instead of shifting 100% attention to BF3. BF3 is in the future, the patrons have already bought an unbalanced game and are playing it in the present. We already bought BFBC2 and that went through several major balance changes. I still hope they re-balance again to make V SMOKE take 30 seconds to reload like it used to.
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Jan 15, 2011 18:03:12 GMT -5
I still hope they re-balance again to make V SMOKE take 30 seconds to reload like it used to. Why? I have never seen it used before the change and personally I may not use it unless someone tracers me a lot.
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