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Post by infininja on Jan 15, 2011 18:29:21 GMT -5
I still hope they re-balance again to make V SMOKE take 30 seconds to reload like it used to. Why? I have never seen it used before the change and personally I may not use it unless someone tracers me a lot. I'd rather see no one use it than the constant abuse it gets now. I can't believe you're even asking why. It's impossible to take down a helicopter running V SMOKE via a tracer dart unless you have two extremely coordinated and extremely skilled tracers. You can trace someone, lock on, fire, miss, then you have to reload all your weapons to do it again and the flares are ready before you're even done. Maybe it's a little unfair that one man on the ground could take on a chopper all by himself (and honestly, even with a 30 second reload on the flares they would still waste at least one tracer dart and rocket), but currently the only way to take one down is dumbfiring or using the AT4 (which I've subsequently become much better at doing). Any pilot worth their chops is running V SMOKE.
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Post by rubionubio on Jan 16, 2011 2:43:14 GMT -5
This sucks. I got really good at tracering choppers, and now 9/10 on the close games (where both teams are pretty good) the chopper uses flares and I'm spent. It's beyond retarded.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jan 16, 2011 10:07:03 GMT -5
Yeah I didn't like that balance change at all. Makes tracer darts basically useless. Who uses them for tanks anyway? They're not really that necessary and will make your rockets fly at fruity angles into the tank. Killing helicopters is the one place I don't really like the balance. Other helos can kill them just fine, but on the Rush levels where one team has one and the other doesn't they can really be a pain. I'd prefer it if taking them down was based on teamwork (e.g. tracer and rocket) than just finding the static thing on the map that kills them in two seconds, unless the helo sees you in which case you die instantly.
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Post by rubionubio on Jan 16, 2011 13:04:01 GMT -5
It's basically rock, paper, scissors. If the attacking team has a UAV, they take out the AA gun and chopper dominates, unless you take out the UAV first (impossible if they have V Optic and know wtf they are doing). If they don't have UAV and you have an AA gun, chopper is hosed. If you have lots HMG emplacements or tanks you *might* be able to use those to harass the chopper, but honestly if you're devoting that much attention to the chopper you've probably lost anyway.
Personally I don't like that it's virtually impossible to take out a good chopper pilot right now. Even in Vietnam, a good chopper pilot with some engineers inside is basically impossible to kill unless you devote half your team to killing, which again, you've already lost then. Not having any useful AA options sucks... Since, you know, the RPG flies straight for about ten meters before pulling a RubioNubio after about half a bottle of tequila.
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Post by onikage on Jan 16, 2011 18:41:50 GMT -5
Shotguns, semi auto snipers, and pistols were not overpowered in vanilla BC2, not by a long shot. To enhance all the other options while leaving them untouched is a very telling decision. Telling, because it's OBVIOUS that it's not conducive to balance. It's not the kind of thing that can be attributed to carelessness or a miscalculation. If DICE gave a fuck, that would not have happened. It did happen. Ergo, DICE does not give a fuck.
Their approach to the Vietnam expansion has been transparently cynical from the beginning, so none of us should be shocked by this.
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novem
True Bro
Posts: 193
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Post by novem on Jan 16, 2011 19:15:16 GMT -5
Choppers are quite bad designed in this game, really annoying and hard to kill. Maybe in real life they are also badass, but its a game, it needs a good balance.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jan 16, 2011 22:32:39 GMT -5
Vietnam choppers I like. Although I haven't had any success repairing them in the air. Is it just finding the lucky spot like the blackhawk and hind? Got to say, whenever an enemy chopper is up it's dropped within seconds, but I've been in ones that have been in the air a while (enough to get me a couple of those pins, so >10 kills, plus whatever my mates have managed) without being particularly harassed. I know nothing about flying helicopters, best I can manage is just about flying a stolen one from the enemy spawn back to whoever in my squad can actually fly one, so I don't know if my teammates are great pilots (unlikely) or if the other team is often full of awful ingrates (likely).
But yeah, I've seen basically no counter to the Blackhawk that sits quite far off the battlefield, moving around in a little box to dodge rockets/tracers, with engineers in the back healing any bullet damage.
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Post by infininja on Jan 17, 2011 2:58:18 GMT -5
Vietnam choppers I like. Although I haven't had any success repairing them in the air. Is it just finding the lucky spot like the blackhawk and hind? Got to say, whenever an enemy chopper is up it's dropped within seconds, but I've been in ones that have been in the air a while (enough to get me a couple of those pins, so >10 kills, plus whatever my mates have managed) without being particularly harassed. I know nothing about flying helicopters, best I can manage is just about flying a stolen one from the enemy spawn back to whoever in my squad can actually fly one, so I don't know if my teammates are great pilots (unlikely) or if the other team is often full of awful ingrates (likely). But yeah, I've seen basically no counter to the Blackhawk that sits quite far off the battlefield, moving around in a little box to dodge rockets/tracers, with engineers in the back healing any bullet damage. The trick to repairing in the backseat is mostly in the pilot. They helicopter needs to be pretty level to pull it off. As for the Blackhawk a million miles away, imagine him with V SMOKE so when you finally do land that tracer it's useless. Great fun.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 18, 2011 13:53:51 GMT -5
I could go on for days about vehicle imbalance, but I actually think that Vietnam got vehicles pretty right... perhaps the exception being the paper Huey, which needs about a 200% health boost on XBOX/PS3. (That's 3x what it is now, for those of you less inclined to doing math).
Seems like if you have a good group of engineers on both teams, a tank will survive just long enough to lay down good damage. Jeeps leave you exposed but offer fast transport. Tuk Tuk (obviously overpowered, any noob can get in the Tuk Tuk and put up 100 kill games /sarcasm) but fill a niche like the jeep.
In vanilla, seems like a good attack chopper is invincible. I would love to see all sniper rounds do damage against them, or at least a perk (FMJ??) that adds a (VERY MINUTE) amount of vehicle damage against airborne vehicles. However, that's too much to wish for now, hopefully in BF3 we will see something along those lines. Helis were almost balanced when VSMOKE was 30 seconds delayed, now I agree with everyone here in saying that it's impossible to knock out a good bird pilot. Point in case, there are people out there that search into Oasis on rush, use the chopper til it doesn't respawn or the other team is super-organized and take it down, then leaves after the 2nd base is down. This is just to boost their SPM, and it's sickening going up against these guys. It makes many maps unplayable.
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Post by 418Y on Jan 19, 2011 2:17:19 GMT -5
I don't think choppers are THAT overpowered. Let's say a 12 vs 12 Rush on Oasis: yet is true that tracer darts have become quite useless, if you have at least two AT4 engi on your team, the chopper pilot has no chances to fly more than 1 minute. If every Carl Gustav engi would use an AT4, and learn to use it, choppers wouldn't be a big deal in vanilla BC...
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Post by SheWolf on Jan 19, 2011 8:55:03 GMT -5
i don't know how things are with console controls, but a good helicopter pilot on pc is virtually unhittable with an at4.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jan 19, 2011 9:09:35 GMT -5
Yeah I never manage anything with an at4. Do you have to overcompensate? Got no feel for it, I'm rpg 4 life.
Tanks in vietnam: mannnn does the gunner's gun suck. It's like a really loud m93. Don't know if it's better in conquest (almost always play rush) but vehicles just seem too feeble in vietnam (except that lovely boat). With only one tank, and on average half the enemy team with tnt or rpg or mines, things aren't looking so radical for the tank. Especially with that flippin terrible mg on the top.
Although, over the weekend I did manage to drop a huey with a tank shell, which is possibly the most satisfying thing I ever did.
Also, where the hell is that VC jeep? I need it for that achievement ;_;
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 19, 2011 13:28:43 GMT -5
Oh, console controls make it damn near impossible to take down a heli with an AT-4. I have started trying to, but to no avail yet. I feel like it may take ages for me to become well versed in the ways of the laser-guided rocket
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Post by infininja on Jan 19, 2011 14:40:08 GMT -5
All I did was watch that and I could shoot down choppers with the AT4 like no other.
Ok, not really, but watching that montage did give me a better idea how to handle the AT4 on distant and moving targets, so I've improved a lot. Apache's are still a problem, but they're not impossible to take down.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 19, 2011 15:26:43 GMT -5
I have yet to see a console montage like that.
Also, note the serious lack of attack chopper kills, and notice that most of his targets are pretty slow moving. None are circle strafing like a level 50 chopper whore would do. On consoles, who have a very limited maximum rotation speed when scoped, and up against competent pilots, it's all down to luck.
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Post by infininja on Jan 19, 2011 16:21:56 GMT -5
Ok, well I play on 360 the majority of the time and have taken down choppers. Yeah, you gotta hope they don't notice you sometimes so you can line up your shot, but it's not all down to luck. I've certainly not taken down any helicopters blindfolded.
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Post by SheWolf on Jan 19, 2011 17:02:06 GMT -5
yeah, most of the helicopters in the montage are flying really slow and in a straight line. besides, its a montage, for all we know for every hit he made there he missed 25 choppers. at4 on a good pilot in a havoc doing the circle of doom thingie..not gonna work at all.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jan 19, 2011 17:11:07 GMT -5
Yeah that video is very impressive, but they're almost all blackhawks and there's no circle strafing, which while hardly a radical tactic when it comes to killing people, is pretty good at keeping you alive. Has made me want to try the AT-4 out tonight though, see if this can be done in any way on consoles.
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Post by infininja on Jan 20, 2011 1:50:26 GMT -5
The point of me posting the video was to get an idea of where you should be aiming your AT4 and how much you need to guide it depending on distance to and speed of your target, not to show that helicopters are completely useless when anyone has an AT4 out. It made me re-think the AT4 entirely and now I judge my shots a lot better.
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Post by rubionubio on Jan 20, 2011 3:29:08 GMT -5
All I did was watch that and I could shoot down choppers with the AT4 like no other. Ok, not really, but watching that montage did give me a better idea how to handle the AT4 on distant and moving targets, so I've improved a lot. Apache's are still a problem, but they're not impossible to take down. Well, even if everyone else is too good or thinks this video is useless, I sure didn't. Thanks for posting it, it's definitely a good place to start when trying to lead choppers with the AT4, which is basically the only way to take them down these days (if the pilot is good at least).
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Post by rubionubio on Jan 20, 2011 3:38:32 GMT -5
So one thing that really stood out to me watching that video was how he didn't start out actually centering ANY of his shots. I mean, we obviously all know to try to lead the crazy fast choppers, but watch it and notice that he almost always starts by shooting below the chopper, and guides it up towards it. Even the ones where the chopper is flying right at him, he still aims below and guides it up.
This would make a huge difference in your depth perception and ability to judge the position of the missile, which I find to be the hardest part about the AT4.
Another side effect of that could potentially be the fact that the choppers driver doesn't get the lock on warning until the last second, avoiding any potential evasive maneuvers until it's too late.
Very cool.
Edit: This is a better video. A bunch of it is versus attack choppers, and most of the pilots are good. Some are strafing and whatnot, definitely would be challenging.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jan 20, 2011 9:03:40 GMT -5
Haha yeah so I tried it last night and gave up instantly, wasn't having a good day on core mode. Agree w/ rubio, the interesting thing is how he shoots at the start, and definitely the hardest thing is knowing how far away your rocket is. Which I could still barely tell in the video, but it would certainly make it easier.
Met a Huey doing the bob-around-at-the-back-of-the-map thing last night and with the added fun of missiles it was frustratingly effective, plus no one on my team was dealing with it at all. But the nice thing about the choppers in vietnam is I could equip the stoner, sneak up until I was right under it, and kill it before it could fly off/faster than the twin engineers could fix it.
The downside of this tactic is it leaves you holding an empty XM22 whilst 5 unhappy chaps airdrop all around you.
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Post by infininja on Jan 20, 2011 12:00:10 GMT -5
Can't spend 11 minutes watching that right now, but the first 2 minutes are good. Thanks. We probably should've had this discussion in another thread.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 20, 2011 12:57:26 GMT -5
Perhaps, but this is a balance thread afterall and we are discussing whether or not attack helis are unbalanced.
Certainly, I suck at both shooting them (unless there is anti-aircraft guns around) and I suck at piloting them (never get any practice because I usually have randoms on my team that take them first, and I'm bad with the gunner), so for me, helis are overpowered. There are people out there that they aren't overpowered against... but they are a select few indeed.
I don't think they should get rid of them, I just think that more things should damage them besides 50 cal ammo, explosives, and anti-air guns. Sort of like the Huey, but maybe with 1/10th of the effectiveness (on consoles).
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Post by rubionubio on Jan 20, 2011 16:51:05 GMT -5
Might not be an option on a console, but on PC I got my flying practice done by joining a server that was empty on Atacama or Heavy Metal.
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novem
True Bro
Posts: 193
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Post by novem on Jan 20, 2011 18:42:43 GMT -5
Do you fly using only keyboard, or keyboard + mouse?
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Post by rubionubio on Jan 20, 2011 21:47:15 GMT -5
Only keyboard. Mouse takes too much desk space to use effectively for me.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 21, 2011 13:23:01 GMT -5
Might not be an option on a console, but on PC I got my flying practice done by joining a server that was empty on Atacama or Heavy Metal. I had the opportunity when the servers were broken Now they are fixed yet again, and the least number of people I have seen on one side is 6 (rest quit, I think there was some spawn raping going on on Rush in Cao Son Temple). In vanilla, seems to be almost full servers everywhere.
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Post by 418Y on Jan 23, 2011 19:05:45 GMT -5
i don't know how things are with console controls, but a good helicopter pilot on pc is virtually unhittable with an at4. I have to disagree... If you really know how to use it (not saying I am, not yet!), there is no chopper who can escape from your rockets. At least, not from all the four/eight of them! It's question of technique, and things vary from the position you shoot it from (the front, the rear, while he goes in circle)... You have to be patient and wait the right moment, and also change the rocket's direction at the right moment, but no pilot can escape a well aimed AT4 imho. It's all about shooting next to him, understanding how far the chopper is, when will the rocket be at the same distance, and quickly moving the mouse up or down to fuck him at the very exact time.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jan 23, 2011 21:19:03 GMT -5
Been playing around a bit with AT4 vs helos and I'm completely useless. Got close a couple of times, but it was just dumb luck even then. The AT4 is pretty lovely vs tanks and IFVs though, especially at range. Hopefully it will all come in time. Frankly though it feels like it's easier to do it with tank shells. One of my squad mates hit three out of the sky from the driver's seat of a tank in a single Oasis match, whilst I shot a good 20 unsuccessful rockets.
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