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Post by AndrewPast on Nov 23, 2011 14:51:10 GMT -5
I want to collect the opinions of you bros about what are the most efficient weapons for each class except recon (their weapons are quite a bit different. What works for assault can translate to engineer and support much better.) From a competition perspective, I have mostly seen grip and IRNV before it was banned from future competition. The last attachment has been a mix of heavy barrel, suppressor, and laser sights. However, I do not believe that this is the most efficient setup.
Optics
IRNV is without a doubt the best optic available, but is banned from competition, so I will disregard it. The RDS and Kobra sights offer a similar feel to the IRNV, but I feel is inferior compared to other optics because it doesn't offer any greater target acquisition or shot placement benefits. However, the 3.4x sights offer greater target acquisition abilities while retaining fast ADS, good peripherals, and is more usable at close range compared to the 4x and 6x optics. The holographic sights are good alternatives as well. They are very similar to the RDS and Kobra sights, but offer a 1.5x zoom for a bit better target acquisition and shot placement.
Do you bros have any argument for the other sights?
Underbarrel
I have yet to experiment with this, but I believe that on certain low horizontal recoil weapons, the bipod would allow more flexibility than the grip. Most notably are the AR-15 based weapons. The M16, M4, and M416 all already have low horizontal recoil. The M60E4 also has a low amount of horizontal recoil. Considering that the grip halves horizontal recoil, it seems that the net gain from this attachment is lower than when it is on another gun that has greater horizontal recoil.
Have any of you bros experimented with the bipod on the low horizontal recoil weapons? What are your conclusions?
Barrel
The heavy barrel has been popular, but seems to be inefficient in most situations because of the 50% increase in spread added per shot. Therefore, I believe that the two best attachments are the suppressor and the laser sight.
Overall the suppressor seems to be the clear cut winner with lower initial spread, lower vertical recoil, hiding both muzzle flash and audio signature, and preventing "audio spotting" with certain weapons (all weapons when a bug gets fixed.) However, the lower velocity and increased bullet drop becomes a problem for anything longer than medium range. The added hip fire spread can also become a problem if you have a 3.4x or greater zoomed optic attached.
The laser sight is the other contender because it has no detrimental effect at all compared to the other performance enhancing barrel attachments. The hip fire accuracy increase is quite significant, and can make a large difference in CQB situations. This makes it a good choice to use when using a zoomed optic. This allows for greater versatility.
It can be argued that the laser sight gives your position away, but it can be turned off, so you just need to be careful with it.
Weapons
In general, high ROF, low recoil weapons seem to be the most efficient weapons. I want to experiment more with attachments setups before commenting on specific weapons.
You are my bro, bro.
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Post by doctorbrain on Nov 23, 2011 16:29:21 GMT -5
Going off of these charts, as they are the only ones available at the moment, afaik: symthic.dy.fi/?s=bf3I mostly play Assault and Engineer. I agree with most of your analysis concerning weapon attachments. I use the 3.4x or holographic sights for the reasons you already stated. For the barrel attachments, the silencer/laser sight seem to be the most useful, although I usually use the laser sight. The silencer's negative effects outweigh its benefits except on CQC maps, imo. For underbarrel, I usually go with the foregrip, as it has no penalties associated with it, and I don't enjoy the loss of mobility required by the bipod. As for weapons, Symthic's chart seems to indicate that there are only a few weapons actually worth using. For Assault, the M16A3 has the best balance in terms of ROF and accuracy; the G3A3 is an alternative if you're looking for increased damage output, although its reduced accuracy probably doesn't make it all that viable. For Engineer, the M4A1 seems to be the best selection, with the A-91 coming in second. As with the M16A3, they both have good ROF and accuracy. The main difference between the M4A1 and A-91 is that A-91 is more accurate while moving. The SCAR has better damage-per-shot than either weapon, but it (and the G3A3) was nerfed in the most recent patch. I'm willing to bet the 7.62mm weapon's new, reduced damage values won't justify the loss of accuracy and ROF. |
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Post by nukei on Nov 23, 2011 20:12:45 GMT -5
I've played Support to M60E4 and Assault to F2000, with the other two lagging behind.
I don't like sights which are big or clunky (ACOG included). I also don't really see the deciding factor to use IRNV (especially due to sway - I play ps3 so it's kind of annoying to hold down L3 - also the move button) compared to RDS. I target enemies quite fine, and I feel that IRNV can only be used while rushing - "glance zoom" - "target sighted if orange" -> "if yes, attack, if no, continue".
IRNV Sights may help to hit enemies in buildings when approaching from ground level (and thus can't see any enemy inside the building), but tend to disrupt close-range combat as compared to RDS (note that it's still usable in CQC and medium combat quarters - but it's a ton more annoying).
Aside from the variances of RDS, I tend not to use anything else. I even got rid of the scope on my sniper. I can usually kill with 5 burst rounds with M240B in 2~3 seconds to kill an enemy at long range - thus not really needing to use snipers in the first place. I tend not to use hip-fire and usually keep suppressor on all weapons except M240B (due to defunct processing).
By the way, how do you turn off laser on console?
I'm mostly looking for guidance in terms of why IRNV - or any of the other scopes should be used - and why use hip fire when CQC is very rare.
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Anyway, the most efficient gun for me is probably:
F2000 - Tends to be efficient in close-medium range distances. Burst fire at medium range.
M4 - Seemingly excellent accuracy. I've only used it once when it dropped off an enemy, but it killed several before I died with it.
However, Scar-H (Was there really a nerf?) for Engineer is still quite (if not incredibly) good (but still not reliable as F2000 and AEK-971, as well as M240B and PKP). Not so much long distances, but, like the F2000, it can do well in close-medium circumstances.
M240B for Support is quite strong. It wrecks multiple targets at close range - and is one of the weapons that I feel is okay to hip fire. Its CQC is similar to F2000, but better by a few points of damage.
I tend to get killed by: A-91, F2000, Scar-H, SV98, MK-Mod, M40A5, the M4s and M16A3. The support weapons seem the most unpopular - as well as shotguns (even though they're nice).
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I feel that the grip makes everything quite manageable. The M16A4 is an overall good gun, but the AEK-971 outclasses it, especially once adding grip AEK seems to have little recoil. It has the lowest vertical recoil of all ARs (tied with F2000 and KH2002). Any horizontal recoil of around .25 is already quite small.
The bipod feels clumsy and heavy to use in most situations, but I did like using it on a sniper rifle in the first coop mission.
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Post by AndrewPast on Nov 23, 2011 21:36:11 GMT -5
On PC, the IRNV is extremely manageable. The sway isn't a problem at all with a mouse, and I almost never held my breath when using it.
I'm not sure how to toggle flashlight and laser on consoles.
The laser sight makes hip fire usable up to about 10-20m, depending on the gun.
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Post by thelane on Nov 23, 2011 21:56:54 GMT -5
By the way, how do you turn off laser on console?
Press up on the d-pad, works for flashlights too.(Was there really a nerf?)
Not for consoles yet.The bipod feels clumsy and heavy to use in most situations, but I did like using it on a sniper rifle in the first coop mission.
This. Question isn't "Why use the grip if horizontal recoil is small" It's "why not make myself more precise"2 service stars each with assualt/ engi here. F2000 hands down is the most efficient weapon. I run it with an american holo/ grip/ suppressor, I only really notice the suppressor at extreme distance but I'm burst firing any farther than ~25/30meters if they're moving/ suppressing me. |
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Post by roey on Nov 24, 2011 1:33:22 GMT -5
Interesting recitation and discussion. I think a some of this will depend on your approach to combat in BF3, though I do notice that BF3 seems to 'push' infantry contact into mostly CQC, probably due to close placement of objectives and level design that seems to discouraged ranged combat almost by design. One thing I've noticed and have had corroborated is that suppressors have uneven results with respect to occlusion and ranged attenuation; this may be due to limitations or issues with some Player's audio hardware, or actual limitations of the sound geometry on some BF3 maps. The breech and muzzle sounds made from suppressed weapons are also quite loud, and have a lot more high frequency energy then the bark of an unsuppressed weapon making them much easier in-game just like the real world to localize if you're in ear shot, then an unsuppressed weapon's reverberation laden blast....  |
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Post by swyck on Nov 24, 2011 9:59:29 GMT -5
Based on the numbers AEK seems like equal or better than F2000 (which I haven't unlocked yet), though there is a lot of love out there for F2000 being the best.
ROF AEK 900 to 850
Velocity F2000 600 to 580 ( is this a significant difference?)
Recoil F2000 by -0.2 to 0.1
Spread max and min looks to be significantly better for AEK when zoomed.
To me it looks close but I haven't handled F2000 yet. M16A3 also looks like a fine weapon. M416 got a lot of love early, and I liked the way it handles, but based on the numbers there are better choices.
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sleep
True Bro
Posts: 10,189
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Post by sleep on Nov 24, 2011 17:09:55 GMT -5
yep, when i think efficient, i think of the AEK with a grip because of its best-in-class TTK and very easy to manage recoil. my preference is to use a HBAR for that extra accuracy when using single fire at long range, and a holo.
the F2000 is another good option whose stats suggest, for lack of a better phrase, a more run-n-gun and close-quarters style. its spread numbers are unique among the ARs. basically: when ADS, shots taken standing still are less accurate than other ARs (on par with standard carbine accuracy), but when ADS and moving it is more accurate than other ARs. it's hip spread in all stances, stationary or moving, is also tightest in its class (again, on par with most carbines).
the m16a3 kills dudes pretty fast as well; it seems this gun's strengths are low horizontal recoil, as noted in the OP, and particularly fast reload times compared with the above two weapons.
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Post by dfwallace on Dec 3, 2011 8:22:01 GMT -5
Red laser sight...
I wish I could use it, but it's so tiny I can barely see it....
Anyone else experience the same thing?
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Post by didjeridu on Dec 3, 2011 12:41:43 GMT -5
Red laser sight... I wish I could use it, but it's so tiny I can barely see it.... Anyone else experience the same thing? Not exactly. I can see it, but I don't pay attention to it. The biggest reason I hate the laser is that it doesn't point at the center of your screen. I can understand it bobbing around as you move, but it just points somewhere randomly in your crosshairs when still (depending on the gun), if it's in the crosshairs at all. Too often in the heat of the moment do I point the laser at my enemy, yet die because I was missing half the time. And as a minor pet peeve, I wish the laser was off by default, or at least remembered whether it was on or off when you spawn. Same thing for flashlight. |
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Post by sushicake on Dec 7, 2011 17:43:34 GMT -5
My list (based on stats and my playing experience):
Assault
AEK - It's a chainsaw in close/mid range. The best TTK.
M16AX - Great all rounder. Every stat is almost as good as the best in the class.
KH2002 - The best at mid/long range. It has the lowest recoil of all rifles.
Engy
A-91: All of its stats except for reload times and muzzle velocity are the best in the class. Its also the only Engy weapon with a smaller hip fire spread. The slower reload doesn't bother me and IMO muzzle velocity only matters at very long distances (8x scope sniper rifle territory).
Support
M249: Best choice for the support players with an aggressive or balanced playstyle.
PKP: Ideal for those who spend most of the game holding choke points with a bipod. Its got a 1.0 max ADS spread, 'nuff said.
Recon
MK11: The semi autos are virtually identical, but the MK11 has the fastest reload.
M98B: Highest damage means you're more likely to kill someone who's already wounded, and it has the least bullet drop.
MP7 and P90: I know these are technically all-kit weapons, but honestly only Recons have a use for PDWs. The 12/6 patch buffed the MP7 and P90 so much that IMO they're now the PDWs of choice.
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Post by SheWolf on Dec 7, 2011 19:02:22 GMT -5
why are people so obsessed with the A-91? 0.5 horizontal recoil is awefull. M4 is better in every way imaginable.
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Post by yrrnn on Dec 7, 2011 21:17:37 GMT -5
why are people so obsessed with the A-91? 0.5 horizontal recoil is awefull. M4 is better in every way imaginable. I've found it's pretty good as long as you have the foregrip and silencer attached. I'm hanging out to unlock the M4A1 for both sides though. |
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Post by sushicake on Dec 7, 2011 21:56:09 GMT -5
why are people so obsessed with the A-91? 0.5 horizontal recoil is awefull. M4 is better in every way imaginable. What's wrong with the A-91's h-recoil? It's balanced L and R, so most of the time it recoils on/around the center. Very rarely does it steer wildly in one direction. And if you use a grip, h-recoil is a non-issue. |
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Post by SheWolf on Dec 8, 2011 5:47:56 GMT -5
i'm not saying there would be anything wrong with the A-91, or that it would be a bad weapon. but claiming that "All of its stats except for reload times and muzzle velocity are the best in the class" is simply a false statement. the only thing it excels at, if you want to call a slight advantage that, is hipfire accuracy when standing and kneeling. nothing that would make me say all of it's stats are the best in the class.
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Post by AndrewPast on Dec 8, 2011 7:12:32 GMT -5
Post patch heavy barrel has a purpose. Before, long bursts were ideal and made heavy barrel pointless. Now, the emphasis is short bursts. Here, the heavy barrel seems to shine.
This change also makes a suppressor even more appealing, as it lowers first shot spread as well.
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Post by sushicake on Dec 8, 2011 11:19:43 GMT -5
"All of its stats except for reload times and muzzle velocity are the best in the class" is simply a false statement. the only thing it excels at, if you want to call a slight advantage that, is hipfire accuracy when standing and kneeling. nothing that would make me say all of it's stats are the best in the class. The A-91 is the best (v-recoil, hip spread) or tied for the best (TTK, accuracy, spread, capacity) in almost every important stat. The few stats that it isn't are reload, velocity, and h-recoil, the latter two being inconsequential in this case. I don't see how anyone can argue that the A-91 isn't the best Engy gun, unless they think reload speed is more important than recoil and hip spread. Post patch heavy barrel has a purpose. Before, long bursts were ideal and made heavy barrel pointless. Now, the emphasis is short bursts. Here, the heavy barrel seems to shine. This change also makes a suppressor even more appealing, as it lowers first shot spread as well. I think you're misunderstanding the effects of the heavy barrel. The heavy barrel was pointless because it increased the v-recoil and the spread increase per shot. The reason why short bursts are more ideal now is because the 12/6 patch doubled the spread increase per shot for almost every weapon, making them become inaccurate much faster. So the heavy barrel is even worse now. |
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Post by zzzzzze on Dec 8, 2011 11:54:06 GMT -5
The A-91 is the best (v-recoil, hip spread) or tied for the best (TTK, accuracy, spread, capacity) in almost every important stat. The few stats that it isn't are reload, velocity, and h-recoil, the latter two being inconsequential in this case. I don't see how anyone can argue that the A-91 isn't the best Engy gun, unless they think reload speed is more important than recoil and hip spread. the A-91 has far lower muzzle velocity which tends to be a matter of taste when it comes to how far you are comfortable with leading a target or adjusting for bullet drop. with the M4A1 you're allowed to keep the sights closer to the actual target (less leading or aiming above) and still have your shots hit which is something i prefer. in my opinion the M4A1 would be a clear winner IF there was an accessory that was worth using in the underbarrel section that was something other than the foregrip. the M4A1 already has half the amount of H recoil, albeit unabalanced, than the A-91 so you can comfortably ignore the foregrip for something else, IF there was something else. with the A-91 you can't afford to ignore the foregrip. the bipod is terrible for the player who is constantly active and moving around, i'm one of those. completely agree with you here. heavy barrel looked very unattractive when i found out it also increases spread after the first shot AND just flat out increases recoil, now it looks even more unattractive. |
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Post by SheWolf on Dec 8, 2011 12:09:48 GMT -5
sushicake: maybe we are misunderstanding each other because of platform. on pc with mouse controls vertical recoil is very easily compensated. horizontal recoil is where onaccuracy comes from. and there it sucks, plain and simple. now maybe you are on a console. i can see that vertical recoil can become a real problem with wobbly, inaccurate thumbsticks. and the shorter combat distances on consoles (due to the inaccurate nature of the input devices) mean that horizontal recoil isn't such a big deal. so yeah, i guess things are different on consoles. but either way, i'd say that h-recoil is the more important than TTK (a virtually meaningles, arbitrary calculation with no place in actual gameplay) or hip spread (seriously, how often does one shoot from the hip in bf3)
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Post by sushicake on Dec 8, 2011 13:09:50 GMT -5
the A-91 has far lower muzzle velocity which tends to be a matter of taste when it comes to how far you are comfortable with leading a target or adjusting for bullet drop. with the M4A1 you're allowed to keep the sights closer to the actual target (less leading or aiming above) and still have your shots hit which is something i prefer. Hmm, I dunno, I haven't had to lead any of my shots with the A-91. But I only shoot at people close-mid range, like within 30m. I don't think Engys should be picking fights any further than that. Their guns aren't very good at long range. sushicake: maybe we are misunderstanding each other because of platform. Yeah, playstyle too, probably. As Engy I do pretty much all my fighting at close-mid range (reasons stated above). At these ranges, h-recoil barely affects you. I wouldn't say TTK or hip spread are worthless. TTK matters in CQC, where pretty much all of your shots will land, and hip spread can save your ass in some situations. Edit: Forgot to mention another reason why I think h-recoil isn't that big of a deal. At longer ranges (where recoil really affects you the most), you're probably firing in short bursts of like 5 shots. So h-recoil only gets like a handful of rolls, and then your gun's recoil gets reset when you stop bursting. A few rolls won't really screw up your aim that much unless the h-recoil is heavily tilted towards one side, because it's not very likely for you to have a streak of bad rolls in a small sample size. |
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Post by sushicake on Dec 9, 2011 19:58:19 GMT -5
So how good do you guys think the B2K weapons are? I really like the FAMAS and MG36.
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Post by raxcoswell on Dec 10, 2011 13:46:38 GMT -5
(seriously, how often does one shoot from the hip in bf3) all the time? |
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Post by rudybojangles on Dec 12, 2011 14:55:37 GMT -5
(seriously, how often does one shoot from the hip in bf3) all the time? This pewpewpewI definitely get in trouble for hip-firing silenced AEKs all the time. |
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Post by sushicake on Dec 16, 2011 12:59:09 GMT -5
Lol you guys hip fire that much? I only hip fire in surprise situations (like bumping into someone on a staircase in Metro/Seine)
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Post by raxcoswell on Dec 16, 2011 17:03:07 GMT -5
I hipfire more than half the time within 0-15m I'd say, whenever either I or the guy I'm shooting are trying to move, really. No idea if it's good or bad I guess, but it does just fine for me, I tend to win most of my 50-50s
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Post by sushicake on Dec 16, 2011 17:36:51 GMT -5
Well after playing a little more and checking out the new stats I'm gonna have to add the FAMAS, L85, QBZ, QBB, and L96 to my list.
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Post by rudybojangles on Dec 18, 2011 23:54:25 GMT -5
Playing a lot with the PKP. It's great.
My tops: M4A1, PKP, FAMAS/AEK, G18, AS VAL, M39, M98B, all of those are better than their respective competitors in my hands. Nods as well to the M16A3, M240B, A-91, and PDW. New weapons besides FAMAS is PP-19, we'll see how that does once I decide to play rush again, and the MG36.
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Dec 19, 2011 13:02:01 GMT -5
I'd love a stat that tells me how mayn kills I get scoped and hipfired, because I am now unsure about the surpressor considering the increase in hipfire spread is 34% and the recoil ddecrease is only 10%.
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Post by lee46 on Jan 12, 2012 21:52:41 GMT -5
Red laser sight... I wish I could use it, but it's so tiny I can barely see it.... Anyone else experience the same thing? Not exactly. I can see it, but I don't pay attention to it. The biggest reason I hate the laser is that it doesn't point at the center of your screen. I can understand it bobbing around as you move, but it just points somewhere randomly in your crosshairs when still (depending on the gun), if it's in the crosshairs at all. Too often in the heat of the moment do I point the laser at my enemy, yet die because I was missing half the time. And as a minor pet peeve, I wish the laser was off by default, or at least remembered whether it was on or off when you spawn. Same thing for flashlight. Laser sight shows where your bullet will land, AKA bullet drop, when ADS'd. God tier attachment right there. |
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 13, 2012 8:42:21 GMT -5
Laser sight shows where your bullet will land, AKA bullet drop, when ADS'd. God tier attachment right there. I don't think this has been confirmed... in fact, I am pretty sure that laser sight is not predictive at all. Though I have noticed that it is always lower than the sights. |
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